Bear0fAr
Posts: 170
Joined: 7/25/2010
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ORIGINAL: Camerius
I really like that fact that you point out that a slave can "NEVER" have an excuse for failing as a slave. In that way leaving a lifethreatening situating becomes a no go. Surely not a good thing, and certainly not when it comes to personal safety and responsability.
Indeed, that is the case. It is a very serious thing. One is giving ones entire life into the hands of another. That is why one needs to be sure of what one is doing, before one begs a collar. We could play "doomsday scenario" all day, but interestingly, within the Gorean community, I have never heard of a murder or any such things taking place, unlike the BDSM community which so many claim we are attached at the hip with (no offense intended to my BDSM friends).
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It too is a handy way to remove whatever blame that there might be from a master not being able master his slave fall on her alone, essentially giving him a card blance...
I think you meant to say"carte blanche", that is to say that he has a "blank check" to do as he pleases with the slave. 
But in any case, it is true. An owner does have carte blanche. A man or woman who accepts the freely given surrender of a potential slave is under no obligation to treat them in any manner but in the way that they themselves please (aside from the obligations our society itself imposes, and perhaps not even then if he is willing to pay the price for his actions). Taking ownership of a Gorean slave is not a "relationship" in the strictest sense (and if it is stretched to be so, it would be a very one-sided one). It is not a "partnership" and certainly not some sort of "deal" between the two parties.
The "Vector of Pleasure" (go ask about that one) points in only one direction - towards the owner. If that is not the case, if the slaves continued servitude is predicated on her getting what she wants, even if the owner is agreeable to it, then it is not Gorean slavery. It is a contract between two free peoples who put conditions on one another's actions. To be sure, the Gorean slave may indeed get what she wants, and I suspect most honest slaves do. However, if an owner does not give the time, attention, "love", or any other thing to a Gorean slave, and she, in a fit of pique, fails because of it, it is not the owners fault. Unlike Dom/sub and many other things it is often compared to, Gorean slavery promises the slave nothing. If it did, that is to say that if the slave puts conditions on her own slavery either at it's inception or during it's duration, then it is she who holds the leash and he who wears the collar.
This is why I tell potential Gorean slave girls to run, and to do so quickly. Because it is true that due to the typical manner in which Gorean slavery is presented online, a potential slave will certainly get the impression that they are entering some sort of romantic relationship and agreement, with both parties held to all the responsibilities such relationships ordinarily entail.
Indeed, there is little danger in disappointing her until a potential slave begs the collar of someone who is not looking for a wife to dominate, nor a fuck-buddy who would call him "master", nor a girlfriend who is a sub that he can control to make himself feel better. There is little danger of a confused potential slave being disappointed until she begs the collar of a man who understands that it is he, and his pleasure, that is primary focus of the act of owning a slave. A man who owns a slave not because he is lonely, or is searching for his "soul-mate", but because he found that particular potential slave interesting, creative and pehaps because of this, worthy of a bit of his notice.
I know a few Gorean men like that. Don't look for them. Mostly, they've left online.
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while at the same time branding her forever as of no use to ANYONE that may come to own her in the future, as a slave. Which is in the end a load of bullshit.
Now Cam, you can't have it both ways. I stated, and you agreed in the last exchange that value is in the eye of the beholder. If a man wants to collar a slave who has proven that she is willing to toss her slavery away when the going gets tough, then that is his choice. We all have our own standards, high or low.
Too, I remind you that I've never said that a failed slave will be "forever (as) of no use to ANYONE that may come to own her in the future". Those are your words. That is your baggage being projected onto my position (and, to be fair, you're not the only one doing it). All I have ever maintained is that if a slave fails, her value in total is reduced or destroyed by her actions.
If a man is willing to collar damaged goods, and deal with it, it is certainly none of my affair.
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I have too removed a girl that failed me, so I'm sure others have. The differance is that I have not branded her as a failure, to anyone else or that she can't or never will be a slave to another again.
Nor have I. I have never stated that they "can't or never will be a slave to another again". 
What I DID say, and what you quoted, was this:
"It is after that failure, when a girls value is judged, that her worth is determined. Men have many different yardsticks for that - as well they should. But we both know that in the end those who have failed and who continue to do so are seen more and more widely as valueless and often have to find refuge with weak men whose standards for ownership consist of little more than having something moist and wet between a girls legs. Failure as we speak of it in this context is a very serious thing. It severely and forever affects a girls value, of course, but it does not have to be the end of all value. That decision is made by men, and they alone can make that decision (indeed, there are times when we just watch, blink, shake our heads and shrug as some of these repeated failures get collared over and over as they work their way down the ladder from the strong to the weak). What the girls have to realize is that they never, ever can forget nor walk away from that failure, that they never, ever will reach the potential value as a gorean slave that they could have had they not chosen to fail, and the failing will, inevitibly, close off some avenues, chances and possibilities that would have been open to them had they not chose to fail. "
That was my position then, and remains my position today.
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The level of a standard would have to be static, unified if this concept was going to work.
It is static and unified in that it is an easily explainable standard. A Gorean slave is a Gorean slave until the time she is released or she fails (please see my definition of failure in previous posts if you are unsure of what I mean by "failure").
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It would too leave no room to wiggle in, should it arise.
Now you're getting it.
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It would mean that the whole of the Gorean community would have to back it and police it. Which I don't see happening now or ever.
Nonsense. That's a straw-man argument. That would be akin to me telling you you cannot collar that failed slave because she has damaged her value by her failure. I've never advocated that, nor have I attempted to do mandate that others do so. I realize each man has his own level of standards that he holds his property to and if you want to give your time and attention to someone who has proven that she thinks so little of her slavery that she can stop being a Gorean slave when she wishes...
...more power to ya!
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Those hard liners that are out there that are doing the same and from the same stand that you use as a line of defense, don't make it any more right.
Another straw man. I've never said it did. It is right because of the reasoning behind it, not because of a majority or minority subscribe to it. Hell, if numbers provided truth, then just by what goes on in public online, most Goreans would be pussy-whipped dominants who are at the mercy of their "slaves".
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It's more of a kindergarden response, than what I had expected from a grown man.
Insults? I'm sorry you felt you needed to stoop to this, but it's okay. I mean, I've been called worse.
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Yeah, I got that right of one mans garbage is another mans gold, just that the diffinition of slave failure allowes that.
Okay, good! Then if we agree, why are you arguing with me?
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Remember that a slave that failes once can *NEVER* become a slave to ANYONE ever again.
Well, I certainly disagree with your assertion there. In fact, in the text of mine you've quoted, I said:
"To my mind, it would have to be a very special girl who failed, whom I would take as my slave when there are literally hundreds of potential gorean slaves out there who have not, who would beg for a moment of a Gorean mans time. Once failure is chosen, it is easier to fail the next time. And the next. We all know examples of such girls. "
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So while she is gold to, she will and forever be nothing other than garbage to everyone else.
I don't understand that sentence, I think you've left some words out?
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How can she be anything when she has failed within the concept of slave failur?
Well, that's easy, and I've explained it in the very text you brought here and quoted (which, by the way, I thank you for. I did not have a copy of that, and it will go up on my blog soon). Hey, if you or your community have any more of my writings saved, please feel free to send them to me at [email address]. 
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There garbage remains garbage forever, and to everyone, never changeing and forever static.
Well, that a pretty silly assertion for you to make. I certainly do not agree and have pointed out in my writings that you quoted where I do not.
You know, you might want to re-read the Tarl Cabot saga, whereas the protagonist goes from a proud member of the warrior caste, to a honor-less, sniveling worm of a man begging for his life, to again treading the road towards finding his peace. I think that there are 26 or so books in that series. That might help to answer that "garbage will always be garbage" confusion you seem to be having.
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I too seriously doubt that you by what you are stating here, have things that might rankle or upset me in any way.
Well, if not, I am at a loss as to why you've tried to outright insult me here, in the post I am replying to (that whole kindergarten thing). Do you always try insult people with whom you hold debate? If so, I would think that doing so would make discussion a very lonely pastime for you.
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I too know a lot of what went on within that same community that trew you out after having denied you bread, salt and fire.
Yeah, well I was not around for the whole denying bread and salt and fire thingy, as they had already removed me from the mailing list before they acted. It would have been nice to at least be present to watch, I think. But act they did, as I and my carefully considered behavior over the previous 18 months had left them little choice. I do not blame them in the least for "revoking" my "citizenship" and not letting me "hang out" with them anymore. I would have acted in the same manner, were I they. While I am not proud of what I chose to do, my only regret is that two of my fellows in that community voted nay - on the topic of me not getting to hang around the rest socially - and by that I am still bound by my oath to that community through the vows I took when I initially chose and then held the Home Stone for the first time. Due to the fact that I, unlike some others, have never renounced it, that stone I found that warm day in the Carolinas is still my Home Stone. I am not, however, nor do I claim to be a "citizen" of the S&S. I take my vows taken on the Home Stone seriously, certainly more than some, and should that community ever need me, I am bound by my honor to be there. I am bound by my word, and to this day I am held to it by two good men, to die if need be for the protection of that stone.
I don't see having that happen anytime soon, though.
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I too know a lot more than you think about you than you think, Bear.
I am not sure, after reading that sentence, WHAT to think!
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The only sillyness found here is you and the not working concept of slave failure.
Well, I guess if you cannot make a convincing argument, end with an insult. Although I do have to be honest and cop to being silly sometimes.
I'm sorry Cam, but through the insults and bitterness you've shown, I've tried to explain the concept of slave failure and it's ramifications, at least for those who are reading here who might be interested.
At least you did not call me "Captain".
Best to you, Cam.
Bear-
Postscript: I've again typed way too much here today, and it is affecting my other responsibilities to other correspondence. Can't promise I will reply again, and certainly not again in this length, but I will come back and read the thread occasionally. I enjoy reading all the opinions and am impressed as to the calm and rational manner most have used to express their opinions. This kind of forum is very rare anymore, folks.
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< Message edited by VideoAdminTheta -- 3/21/2011 2:15:36 PM >
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RE: Slave failure can a slave fail at being a Gorean sl... - 
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