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A Pondering...... - 3/20/2011 10:35:23 AM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1072
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline 		Morning...

A friend of my husbands made a comment last night and it seemed odd at the time, the more I thought about it, I wondered if it truly was the "norm" and I was the odd one, lol

Brief history:  The man I married is now disabled, and recently RA was tossed on the pile.  Medication round the clock helps ease the pain, but he is unable to sit for long periods of time, or walk too much.  When we met, I came to him a slave, however, after time he was presented with his current diagnosis, and I was in the midst of dealing with the death of my parents, property disbursement, etc....and he made the choice to terminate our M/s dynamic.   I could have walked then, I suppose, if I was unwilling to make the changes.

His friend said he was lucky I stuck around, not many would.  I never thought about it, I mean....I married him when he was healthy, I love him beyond words, so things are adjusted to make him comfortable.  No big deal.   Are people that self centered?  

After the time spent nursing my mother with terminal cancer, and dealing with the loss of my entire family, the few little changes I have made for my husband, seem trivial.

I guess I wanted to ask here, if anyone feels the same as my husbands friend.   Would you walk on someone, when things didn't go well for them, or not in the direction you wished?   Or, would you stay and support them however you were able?   I'd like to think people are still able to put someone else first, but after that comment....I'm wondering if that is just an illusion.   Wouldn't be the first time I was "out there" with my thinking...probably won't be the last.  I'm hoping his friend is simply jaded and that people are better then he gives them credit for :)


Lisa
(Someone needs to shoot Phil, and his lousy predictions.  Maybe they only work in his neighborhood, Spring is taking it's sweet time around here)

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"Harry Potter is all about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight, is all about how important it is to have a boyfriend"
--- Stephen King
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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/20/2011 10:41:00 AM   
hlen5


Posts: 3899
Joined: 3/2/2008
Status: offline 		IF it was a reliogous ceremony = "In sickness and in health, for better or poorer, til death do you part" (I don't know if that's said in a civl ceremony).

Hopefully when someone takes that vow, they mean it. I hope the majority would live up to their vow.

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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/20/2011 5:31:36 PM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings,

my mother had cancer , my father stayed by her side throught the entire ordeal , a slow painful death. My step mothers first husband became gravely ill and she too never left his side, he was ill for about a year before he passed. I have seen countless examples of people in my family sticking together through illness, loss of jobs , loss of income you name it.

I feel bad for your friend he seems to have forgotten the most important thing, that people choose what attitude to take when looking at the world.

well wishes
kisshou

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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/20/2011 6:32:13 PM   
harlot6969


Posts: 8
Joined: 1/31/2010
Status: offline 		Well there are fewer now than then, my mom and dad are devorced and she just went and cleand his apartment be cause he let it go pretty bad, and he just turned 82 Sunday 03/13/2011 and  she is going to be seventy three  73 in May!!! But she can not hardly stand him I think we are different than the new kids on the block. we hold to our word because that is how we were train to be. they still hold high high over me my actions thoughts and they my folks always will.


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I'm Looking to put together a group of people to help make me a woman, what ever it takes I'm tired of living a lie. need to find my way through the rest of my life as a woman.

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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/21/2011 4:22:38 PM   
SexyBlackMan2


Posts: 90
Joined: 12/10/2004
Status: offline 		It is unfortunate that many people today are selfish. You are committed. That is an amazing characteristic missing in many. It makes you a wonderful sub/slave/wholesome person. Keep being yourself. Your significant other is very lucky to have you and I commend you for being you.

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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/22/2011 2:52:57 AM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		I discussed this with my husband years ago, both of us believe we would stay no matter what, we have had many ups and downs over the years this would be just one more.

Robert Heinlein said (paraphrasing) that love is wanting another person’s happiness more than your own. He also said that we are at heart selfish and that we don’t do anything that doesn’t benefit us in some way no matter how altruistic things may seem.

For me the guilt of leaving would well outweigh any benefits, it would also show my love for him to be a lie.

As I looked after a wheelchair bound parent from the age of 7 I know what I would be getting into. My husband however doesn’t really know just how difficult it is, and that’s the problem. It’s great to have good intentions, but when reality bites no one can know for sure how it will pan out.

Cheryl


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Sometimes just because it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, doesn’t mean it is a duck, it could instead be a plastic replica that leads ducks to their ruin.

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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/22/2011 3:09:26 AM   
Selectivelight


Posts: 191
Joined: 9/30/2010
Status: offline 		I hold no great ceremonies, and I do not look to a higher power for my guidance in life.

But when I give my word, damn it, I mean it. I only gave my partners one word. That word was "forever" and I absolutely will stand by it. Whether or not the fates make it easy is irrelevant to me.

So no, I think his friend is selling humanity short. Or maybe just speaking of himself, which is the greater tragedy.

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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/22/2011 7:31:56 AM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1072
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline 		Cheryl,

You you touched on something that was in the back of my mind when I wrote the OP. 

He also said that we are at heart selfish and that we don’t do anything that doesn’t benefit us in some way no matter how altruistic things may seem.
 
I was told years ago that slaves are selfish, they do what they do in order to satisfy a need within themselves.  That is why I brought my question to a gorean forum, since I hold many of the woman who live with gorean men in high regard.   I think people as a general rule of thumb are a self centered lot, but the M/s dynamic can bring changes within that not many achieve, so I wondered.   :)

Lisa







_____________________________

"Harry Potter is all about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight, is all about how important it is to have a boyfriend"
--- Stephen King

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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/22/2011 9:32:07 AM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Lisa there is nothing wrong with being selfish, people have done and will continue to do many things out of selfishness that benefit others.

If you do something for another out of a sense of duty it makes you unhappy, if you do something for another because it makes you feel better about yourself or pleases you then it makes you happy.
Everyone makes decisions based upon what is best for them, if I do this what will it cost me in time money and guilt. If the reward is more than the cost then we do it.

I remember my mother saying many times anything for a quiet life. She didn’t like arguments so she would always give into my dad to keep the peace, for her peace was more important anything else, ultimately though she left him, that way she got all the peace she needed without having to keep saying yes. Was she selfish...yes. Was it the right thing to do ...yes.

I think the problem is often that we are called selfish by people who want us to do things for them that we don’t wish to.  It’s another weapon to be used against us, “Don’t be selfish” is what we are told as children when we won’t share our sweets or toys. So we share to see parental approval and we see our toys being roughly handled or broken by others. We are taught as children to believe that selfish is bad, and not being selfish is good no matter what it costs us.

If someone was to call me selfish I would laugh because in my eyes if they are using that word then they are trying to manipulate me into doing what they wish me to do, an action that by its nature could also be considered selfish.

Cheryl


_____________________________

Sometimes just because it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, doesn’t mean it is a duck, it could instead be a plastic replica that leads ducks to their ruin.

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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/22/2011 3:25:41 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7259
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		Evening Miss Lisa

I think that your question is not going to have any easy answer because it really is going to depend on the relationship itself, and the feelings of those involved.

My late husband was diagnosed AFTER we had been together for years, but BEFORE we got married...we only got married because he issued me an ultimatium that I either agree to marry him before he died, or I walked out the door and called us quits

IF I had not had some very strong feelings for HIM, I doubt that I would have stayed when he started to get sick, even though we had been together by that time for more than a decade, AND had a child together.

So, for me, it would really depend on how deep the feelings were.

I hope you have a wonderful evening.

mist

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If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.
Real people are not perfect.
Perfect people are not real.

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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/22/2011 5:02:24 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		~FR~

I believe those that forsake a duty freely accepted, because it suddenly makes them unhappy, need to re-evaluate their moral code.

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/27/2011 4:08:06 AM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		No one can know until they are put in that situation Orion.

I have known people who have struggled and struggled to cope until they have ended up in hospital themselves due to the pressure they were under. Others who have stuck by their parent or partner putting their life on hold until they died then finding once they are on their own they now have nothing. No job, no skills, no money, a high price they paid to make sure their partner was looked after.

I have also known people who have walked away at the first mention of the word cancer, or incurable.

No one can know how they will react, or if they can cope until they are put in a position where they have to make that decision.

Are your health and your happiness worth less to you than another’s? That’s a choice millions of people have to make every day, and once you make that decision have you then no right to say “I cannot cope” and walk away?

Do you have the right to judge others for what they choose to do when it doesn’t affect you in any way whatsoever?

All my life I have watched as people made these types of choices and the results of these choices, I never blame anyone for choosing to walk away.

I do not have the right to choose for them.

Cheryl


_____________________________

Sometimes just because it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, doesn’t mean it is a duck, it could instead be a plastic replica that leads ducks to their ruin.

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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/27/2011 5:07:24 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

No one can know until they are put in that situation Orion.


And when they are their moral code is tested.

quote:


I have known people who have struggled and struggled to cope until they have ended up in hospital themselves due to the pressure they were under. Others who have stuck by their parent or partner putting their life on hold until they died then finding once they are on their own they now have nothing. No job, no skills, no money, a high price they paid to make sure their partner was looked after.


Been there now with the committment I made to my parents, who died last year. I took a hit to my income, to keep from traveling for my business. It is slowly coming back. I would consider it a higher price to sacrifice my internal self, and to have walked away.

quote:


I have also known people who have walked away at the first mention of the word cancer, or incurable.

No one can know how they will react, or if they can cope until they are put in a position where they have to make that decision.


It still does not invalidate my reply. If they walk, then they need to take a look at their moral code, and understand this failure to duty.

quote:


Are your health and your happiness worth less to you than another’s? That’s a choice millions of people have to make every day, and once you make that decision have you then no right to say “I cannot cope” and walk away?


It depends upon the person, but for those I love and sworn a duty of care for, yeah my health has come second.

quote:


Do you have the right to judge others for what they choose to do when it doesn’t affect you in any way whatsoever?


Sure do have that right, as does anyone if they claim it. I place merit where it is due.

quote:


All my life I have watched as people made these types of choices and the results of these choices, I never blame anyone for choosing to walk away.

I do not have the right to choose for them.

Cheryl



You mistake blame, for fact. If someone swears to uphold a duty, and fails to do so, then that is a fact. It is up to them to examine why it may have failed, and adjust their moral code accordingly.

I know any parents walk away from their kids, with certain reasons. Some I would even consider valid, but it does not change the fact they failed in their duty, and now must examine their moral code.

To some duty and obligation are very important, even more so than their life and health. Many years ago you would have gotten a different answer from me, but then again many years ago I had a difficult time looking myself in the mirror.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/28/2011 4:14:14 AM   
kessia


Posts: 7
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Upstate NY
Status: offline
quote:

Would you walk on someone, when things didn't go well for them, or not in the direction you wished? Or, would you stay and support them however you were able?


Hi Lisa,
Simple answer: I’d stay.

More detailed:
When I asked Master to collar and keep me, I didn’t add ‘until the going gets rough’. I love him and want to be in service to him for as long as he would let me. Yep, sometimes ‘service’ is the hot sweaty big fun that so many associate with having a slave girl. Sometimes service is picking up the umpty millionth pair of his socks off the floor or glaring until he goes to the doctor. Taking care of him when he had the swine flu. Sitting down and resting when he wants me to even if it makes me crazy to do it. As long as he does not send me away, I’m here for the long haul.

In serving his needs, I serve my own. It’s fulfilling and validating to me to be of use, be in service to him. Since I get something from it I guess the question is, is it “pure” altruism? Is there really any such thing or does every person who engages in other-oriented behavior simply filling a need, answering a calling? Does the philosophical argument matter or are results/actions enough? I suppose that depends on each person's perspective.

best to all,
kessia{FA}




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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/28/2011 4:24:47 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7259
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

I believe those that forsake a duty freely accepted, because it suddenly makes them unhappy, need to re-evaluate their moral code.

I don't want to start a crisis here, but, for some reason, I don't like to walk away from a discussion that really DOES have the possibility of being a good one, despite the differing opinions.

I answered the original question based on my own experiences and how I reacted to those. I chose to stay in the relationship simply because I worshipped that man...he was literally my whole life. I know though, that, if my feelings HAD NOT been so strong, that I would have walked away without a backward glance. And yes, it would have been because I was not getting what I needed in the relationship to remain happy.

If that means that my moral code is in question; then so be it. I admit it. What's more, I admit that if the same thing were to happen right now, today, with another, I would react in the same way. I am a selfish person; I always will be. If being happy in my own life means that others see me as lacking in 'a moral code' , then more power to them...I will still be walking away with a smile on my face, and a clear conscience.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.
Real people are not perfect.
Perfect people are not real.

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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/29/2011 2:06:54 AM   
Hiskajirah


Posts: 929
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline 		Greetings Master's
Greetings Free women
Greetings slaves

Greetings Mistress Lisa

It has taken me quite a bit of pondering myself to participate in this discussion. I would remain with my Master to the very end.

I've experience much death in this life.

I cared for and closed my own dad's eyes. I can still recall his last breath and honoring his no-code. That was the last scolding I got from him was to honor those wishes. Even if he could have been revived he would have still died again, but instead with tubes inside him until his heart failed. He had inoperable lung cancer. My Master welcomed him into our home to die instead of in the hosital. Death was inevitable. Hospice helped, our living room looked like a hospital room, bed, hoist, trapeze, potty chair even though he couldn't use it. I changed the mans diapers, bathed him, changed other things, administered meds, washed his hair with a waterless shampoo. Did that for 5 weeks until he passed away. I was 22 at the time and had 2 baby girls two and three years old. I then took care of my mom and helped her get back on her feet. I had to deal with her loss and depression while barely greiving myself. My Master made his funeral arrangemtents, got him his military funeral and 21 gun salute, missing man, it was honorable and loving.

I've been ill for several years now. My illness is debilitating, progressive, incurable and very painful. My Master has told me he will keep me. He told me when we first learned that my organs would be affected since that time they have been. It's been over 10 years now since all this started with me. I'm in the surgery approx. 10 times a year. I'm seen every month minimally at pain management. I lost my ability to drive 10+ years ago. I also know that if he ever had enough of it all he would still make sure I was cared for elsewhere not just kick me to the curb.

There's been times I haven't been able to wipe my own ass. Times he's carried me to the potty, bathed me, clothed me, washed my hair, lifted me into the wheelchair and so much more. And through all those times I couldn't shake the embarrassement even though I've belonged to him since I was 17 and trust him with all of my heart. He's also stated many times that he would never throw away what no other man has ever had.

I don't want him to be alone, my heart aches for the future. I've asked him to consider another slave for comfort, sex, etc. He doesn't want one. I've wondered if that is because he's saving me the humiliation of my bad days.

In turn, I've also taken care of him the best that I can. He had a heart attack when he was 38, he has 2 stents in his heart, has diabetes and isn't all that well himself yet he continues to provide. On my knees I care and do for him.

We still laugh, are hopeful, I've been in clinical trials for awhile now and soon in another. Lots of love.

Neither of us would walk away just to find happiness and a better time elsewhere. That could be had already.

That's just us.



I wish you all most well,
~Twinkle

_____________________________

"Do not try to force me to be what you want me to be! Accept me for what I want to be,&am!—one who knows she belongs at the feet of men!&desires to be at the feet of men!-their slave!!—their loving slave!” Witness
www.CRPSAdvisory.com

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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/29/2011 8:32:26 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Hi IrishMist,

Only you can examine and question your moral code in such a way that is productive. If someone's code puts personal happiness before duty, and they have no problem with that, then their code is squared away. I do believe it best though, to inform those that it may effect, if you are aware that it is a condition. Often I believe many find themselves in these situations, without having thought about it.

I believe each person's obligation to another, or duty can be strained, or changed depending upon the amount of unhappiness they have. They just must be prepared to accept all of the consequences of their actions, which would be primarily internal.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/29/2011 6:59:40 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Mist and Twinkle,

I think you both illustrate my point perfectly, both you cared for them for love, not for duty. While at times it gets hard (been there myself) and it’s not always fun the reward is seeing someone you love being cared for and loved to the best of your ability.

The rewards are much greater than the price.

I think if you are caring for someone they have to be.

Duty can get be the goad to start you off, but if there isn’t anything more I don’t think it can last. The resentment and negative feelings would eventually be counterproductive.

Cheryl


_____________________________

Sometimes just because it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, doesn’t mean it is a duck, it could instead be a plastic replica that leads ducks to their ruin.

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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/29/2011 7:09:42 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Orion

I would not care for anyone I did not love dearly, I spent my life from 7 caring for my mother who was wheelchair bound. Until the day she died I was there daily for her putting her before my husband and family.

It cost me, it cost them.

The price I paid was worth it to me I am not sure if it was for the rest of my family, the children had no choice, my husband paid because that was the only choice he had if he wanted to be with me.

I would do the same for my husband or kids.

I would not have done that for my father. Duty be buggered he was selfish, inconsiderate and had temper tantrums.

You get back what you give, he couldn’t give so he would have received nothing.

Cheryl


_____________________________

Sometimes just because it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, doesn’t mean it is a duck, it could instead be a plastic replica that leads ducks to their ruin.

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RE: A Pondering...... - 3/29/2011 7:21:24 PM   
BKSir


Posts: 3999
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline 		Yes, some people are indeed that self centered and shallow. Some people are just not strong enough in their own lives to be able to handle such things. That's just how it is, unfortunately. Actually, MANY people fall into one of those two categories, if not both.

However, would I? Hell no. I've been with my partner for going on 16 years now (in May), and 9 years ago, we stood in front of two pastors and said, "For better or for worse, in sickeness and in health, blah blah blah". And I, for one, fucking meant it. Now... has it been easy? NO! He's 100%, total and permanent, disabled veteran with PTSD and schizo-effective disorder. You know what? I love him. I love even THAT about him. Why? Because it's part of who he is, and is a chunk of the whole person that I love. But, it's not ALL that he is. Yes, it's a total pain in the ass some days/weeks/months. But, I'm anything but perfect my own damned self. He puts up with my shortcomings and issues and faults, and I put up with his, and we bask in the good things.

_____________________________

We'll begin with a spin, traveling in a world of my creation. What we'll see will defy explanation.

I am the voices in your head.

BiggKatt Studios

(in reply to Cherylmazana)
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