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RE: Un-Ownables


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RE: Un-Ownables - 4/15/2011 2:37:39 PM   
Selenity


Posts: 17
Joined: 4/11/2011
Status: offline 		Thank you for your attention to my words and showing me that the way I type had meanings in it that I hadn't thought were in them. I'll be much more careful in any future postings to ensure that what I type can not be interpreted to have a meaning I did not intend. As I have said, I'm still fairly green around the edges and still consistently learning about Gor and the philosophy it carries. Each time I read the books I find something new in them that hadn't struck me before. I'll continue to grow, learn, and listen.

I wish you all well,
Selenity

P.S I look forward to meeting with anyone going to the local Gorean Gathering in the Chicago Area tomorrow! I've heard that some good discussions are being planned.


_____________________________

~The tears of an angel can be dried by a devil

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Un-Ownables - 4/15/2011 4:18:01 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Selenity

Thank you for your attention to my words and showing me that the way I type had meanings in it that I hadn't thought were in them. I'll be much more careful in any future postings to ensure that what I type can not be interpreted to have a meaning I did not intend. As I have said, I'm still fairly green around the edges and still consistently learning about Gor and the philosophy it carries. Each time I read the books I find something new in them that hadn't struck me before. I'll continue to grow, learn, and listen.

I wish you all well,
Selenity

P.S I look forward to meeting with anyone going to the local Gorean Gathering in the Chicago Area tomorrow! I've heard that some good discussions are being planned.




You're most welcome...

And taking your tag-line under consideration it seems that conversely the horn(s) of a devil could be well served by the whole of an angel, and the tears would also be a nice side effect.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Selenity)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Un-Ownables - 4/15/2011 5:53:08 PM   
Awareness


Posts: 1297
Joined: 9/8/2010
Status: offline 		  Stream-of-consciousness rambling rarely produces a result which enlightens the reader.  If you're intending to study for any kind of degree, you'll find the ability to organise your thoughts into a coherent arrangement invaluable - some would say mandatory.

Working my way through your tortuous misuse of language, I can only conclude that you're confused.  This confusion partially stems from a lack of self-awareness and a chosen frame of reference.  I've noticed a tendency toward this confusion in the minds of many alleged Goreans and to my mind it's the source of much difficulty.

The first point - and no doubt a contentious one - is that Gorean play in your real life is only ever an analogue.  Consequently, there's a danger in attempting to bring across principles from Gor which cannot function well within that analogue.  Real, actual slavery is one of them.  Real, actual slavery is impossible unless you're isolated from your society and otherwise unable to call for help.

Real, actual slavery is also not the romantic combination of mastery and lust which most Gorean slaves fantasise about.  It's a condition which potentially deprives you of even the remote possibility of happiness.  Thus, what any Gorean slave calls 'slavery' is a consensual arrangement which is an analogue of the real thing.  Subsuming of the will may indeed take place, but the fundamental arrangement is usually a response to a combination of strength and trust.  Slaves who respond to strength alone and will submit their will to any man sufficiently strong enough to claim them are hopelessly lost.

Most people are sufficiently aware to realise that labels such as "Master" and "slave" are only ever vaguely agreed representations of a concept and that only the participants in a relationship know the full extent of those definitions to them - mainly because their close interaction sees an intimate communication of those ideas.  Labels as such are simple representations.  People who argue over subjective definitions of those labels simply do not understand this.

When a woman calls herself a slave - Gorean or otherwise - what she essentially expresses is a desire for another to impose their will upon her.  However this desire usually operates within a certain set of limits.  Slaves without limits have no self-preservation and are lost.  Most slaves attempt to ensure those limits by gaining an understanding of their Master which allows them a reasonable level of certainty that those limits will not be breached.

As an example, a healthy slave is not going to put herself in the hands of someone who may take her life.  Or the lives of her children - if she has any.  Slavery always operates within limits unless the slave is psychologically damaged.

So let's scrap the "slave without limits" nonsense and the "natural slave" nonsense.  You desire to be overmastered, to have someone's will supersede your own.  Even for a time.  And yet that must occur within limits which allow the maintenance of your ongoing life.  Yet, what you're attempting to do is characterise that interaction as a mandatory TPE 24/7 commitment.

This is self-defeating.  If you don't have time for that, if you have an ongoing pattern of growth and goals in your life, then realise you're looking for someone to dominate you, not rule you.  The way in which slaves try to portray themselves as different from subs and the consequential attitude of superiority they carry with them is utter self-delusion.  Stop trying to fit your life and yourself into a mold which clearly does not suit you.

You're a sub.  Find yourself a Dominant and reject this ridiculous notion that slaves are somehow superior to subs.  They're not.  They usually have less going on in their lives, no goals and they clearly have more time.  Find me a slave who claims to have goals, then ask her what she'll do when her Master derails them.  The answer will either turn into a denial of reality or it'll be a real 'come to Jesus' moment.


_____________________________

Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Un-Ownables - 4/15/2011 11:29:48 PM   
tyrasia


Posts: 102
Joined: 9/16/2008
Status: offline 		Angel -- the quick answer is because i type like i talk, and i slip in and out of third when i talk, i have since boot camp. It is subject and emotion related. Everyone who knows me for real here in this dinky pretty town has probably heard it. Certaintly the teachers have, police, friends, Son (but third to Him is mama) the judge one day, however, she didn't bat an eye and i caught it so it was only once. It happens, it is who i am as much as anything else, and it started at least 5 years before i even heard of Gor or BDSM or slavery for that matter. *shrugs* Never bothered anyone here or my friends so i never thought about it. Of course anyone is welcome to think what they want, eveyone's personal truth is valid. Nothing really matters anymore anyway in the end does it?

Need bed, will catch up reading and hopefully have time to reply tomorrow, however, Boy is home all weekend, and we have some fishing and kite flying and tag playing to catch up on. Will find a merry go round and teach him about centrifugal force.

girl wishes everyone well.

tyr

_____________________________

'Life isn't about how to survive the storm, but how to dance in the rain.'

'If i can laugh at something 3 times i can deal with it to it's completion' ~tyrasia~

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Un-Ownables - 4/16/2011 2:22:59 AM   
DearbhailColach


Posts: 3
Joined: 4/14/2011
Status: offline 		Hum.. Interesting thread


There is no such thing as "unownable", there is just "not owned now"

If you are not owned, that by its very fact makes you free.

A Free Woman in Gorean society though, well, she normally kneels behind her companions door. She knows that the ring at the end of the couch is not just there for a slave and she can just as easily spend a night on that couch.

My personal oppinion, and yes, its like assholes, everyone has them, But, having it IS a requirement.
A Free woman, has a say when outside the bedroom. It may not always be listened to, and it can be overridden, but she still has a voice.
Take Bera in Marauders. She spoke and it was said "the High Jarls woman had spoken". Even if BT didnt want Ivar in his Hall, Bera had invited him.

Of course, like most FW in the books she ends up in a collar but the significance is, she is allowed to speak.

A Slave, doesnt get that. Doesnt matter if the bedroom is open or closed, she doesnt get a say or a choice in what goes on around her ** with in the limits of the laws where you live**

So, in my oppinion **Unlike assholes I CAN have two**
You can be a Free with the heart of a slave. Your just waiting for the right guy to put you to your knees.

stop looking for automatic submission, just cause a man comes in and puts a Jarl infront of his name, doesnt mean he can lead men, or dominate women.

Look for a MAN. I capitolize this because we do live in a society where few can really take that word to rights. Look for a man, and the Jarl will follow.

As for third. I always found it as a way to detach from the situation, which is why I think most chatrooms use it.
Unless it is doled out for punishment to remind a girl that she is nothing more then a beast, I dislike it.

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Un-Ownables - 4/16/2011 8:07:50 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		I think what a lot of people are missing here is that they automatically attribute the concept of a "free woman" to automatically being a Gorean Free Woman and it doesn't.  A woman who has been a slave to a Gorean Man, and i mean offline and more for a day or so, but has been held in siginificant slavery, doesn't become a Gorean FW the day she is released.  Slaves' are not Gorean.  So since none of us are Gorean by birth, this woman who is now a free woman, would have to do the same thing Men do and choose to be Gorean.  She needs to do the same work every other Gorean does and find out if being Gorean is for her.

The struggle many women who have been held in slavery and have been an actual slave have is the changing of perception from slave to that of a free person.   Its not easy and it doesn't happen easily because the slave perception is engrained and in the end for some, like me, it goes back and forth between the two perceptions depending on the circumstance.  Also, i think a lot of long time slaves who become free have an issue with is why they should see their freedom as being "so important."  

I think for many, especially those who thrive in the mastery of a Man, when it occurs, freedom simply becomes a vehicle on which they out of necessity travel their lives, freedom is not the goal nor is it the ultimate survival.

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to DearbhailColach)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Un-Ownables - 4/16/2011 10:35:55 AM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tyrasia

Of course anyone is welcome to think what they want, eveyone's personal truth is valid.



I know this is off topic, but I can't help it, the above is like nails on a chalkboard, especially on a board meant for discussing things Gorean.

As for the bolded part, tyrasia, that is utter nonsense.
I'm assuming that you don't know the actual meaning of the word "valid" or else you wouldn't have made such a statement to begin with.

quote:


valid |ˈvalid|
adjective
actually supporting the intended point or claim; acceptable as cogent : a valid criticism. See note at believable .
• legally binding due to having been executed in compliance with the law : a valid contract.
• legally acceptable : the visas are valid for thirty days.


Once you consider the actual meaning of the word "valid" I do hope it's clear to you that the invalidity of the statement "everyone's personal truth is valid" is proven so easily that most children would manage to do so.
I suspect what you meant was "everyone's own opinion shapes their own subjective reality and the way they approach the world", as to imply that one does well to take that into account when conversing with somebody else.

As for the first part of your statement, it may be the case that in popular American culture it's an accepted truism that everybody is welcome to think what they want, but among Goreans, that is definitely not the case.
For a kajira, her mind and thoughts are not subjected to her own will, and her Master can and will forbid her to think in ways he disapproves of. The kajira is not welcome to think as she wants... you'd do well to keep that in mind while pursuing your goal of becoming mastered...

Ishtar

_____________________________


Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to tyrasia)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Un-Ownables - 4/16/2011 11:10:26 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Ishtarr, i disagree, a slave can THINK anyway she wants, what she is incapable of doing without consequences if the Free so desire is act or broadcast those thoughts.  Mastery and living the slavery set by a Man does in fact change thought patterns because you are taught certain ways of understanding but i have yet to find a Man or a slave that truly believes a slave's thoughts are under the control of another.  Even in the books, while they used training to focus the mindset, they never even remotely indicated that thoughts were controlable, only the expression of same was to be utilized within the understanding of obedience.  You see the combination of thoughts in anyone who has been in a couple type situation whether its Husband and wife, M and s, or free companions, over time on many things there is a common focus of thoughts.

I don't give a damn how good a Master a Man is, he cannot control the THOUGHTS of a woman.  All he can do is train her to perhaps have a certain mindset which takes many times years to become a habit of thought, and he can control her expression of those thoughts whether it be in words or actions, i.e., training her not to show a certain expression etc.  Men are good but even Gorean men are not THAT good, nor do i believe they would want to control the thoughts of a slave because many times what they do love most about slaves are her thinking, her thoughts etc and if he controlled them, he would never be able to actually KNOW the slave.  And Gorean Men usually choose to KNOW their slaves, not someone whose thought are simply regurgitation of their own thoughts. 

What you speak of is robotism and Gorean slaves are NOT in any way robots, there is a difference between obedience to expectations of the Man and being a robot in thought to the man.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 4/16/2011 11:11:33 AM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Un-Ownables - 4/16/2011 11:19:02 AM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline 		Angel, I didn't say a kajira isn't able to think what she wants, I said she isn't welcome/entitled to think what she wants by default.

What I said has got nothing to do with ability, and everything with a feeling of entitlement to ones own thoughts.

Ishtar

_____________________________


Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Un-Ownables - 4/16/2011 11:40:02 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Sorry i don't get what you are saying.  Why isn't she welcome to THINK what she wants?    Maybe we are thinking (no pun intended) the same thing just saying it differently.  I never new a Gorean man who really gave that much effort into putting restrictions on a slave's thoughts in the individuality concept because her thoughts, are part of who she is and how she is reacting to her slavery -- her actions yes, but her thoughts no so much.  To me, Gorean men demand honesty of thought and simply control many times how its expressed.  From what i know, they own all those thoughts so to me they would want the honesty of the thoughts rather than tryng to control those thoughts because if they attempt to control those thoughts it can become regurgitation instead of thoughts if that makes sense..  Now i do agree that mastery and slavery teach mindsets which is a certain way of thinking -- so i am not sure if you are meaning mindsets or each and every thought a slave thinks. 

Edited to add this -- are you meaning that a slave's opinion doesn't have any value to the Free in general and that her belief her thoughts (i.e., opinion) is an entitlement that should be accepted is what she is not welcome to believe?

If this is what you mean -- then i agree.

I am thinking you mean thoughts as in -- i think my Master is acting like an ass. 
My master could care less i thought that and i would know he could care less but i would also know -- unless he wanted me to express it -- i would not or if i did, there would be consequences for daring to believe my opinion was something to be considered.  This could be attributed to any thought/opinion i had.  I could say isn't it a beautiful day an if at that moment he didn't want to hear it, i'd more than likely be given THE LOOK, which meants and you are telling us this why, slave?  This would usally trigger that rememberance that my opinion only mattered if HE or the Free i was around wanted it to.  It was playing russian roulette with your opinion some days lol.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 4/16/2011 11:50:37 AM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Un-Ownables - 4/16/2011 11:54:32 AM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

so i am not sure if you are meaning mindsets or each and every thought a slave thinks. 



Neither.

I mean the sense of entitlement that goes hand in hand with the statement "everybody is welcome to their own thoughts".

I'm not suggesting that Gorean men are able to control every thought a kajira has, nor am I suggesting that they even necessarily care about shaping and controlling every possible mindset a kajira could have.

I'm suggesting that Gorean men don't allow any sense of entitlement in a kajira, and any sense of her considering herself on par and the same as a free person.
I'm suggesting that Gorean men would take issue with a kajira proclaiming that she has the right to think as she pleases, not because she's able to, but because a mindset of entitlement and being demanding/protective of rights isn't a mindset Goreans accept in a kajira.
If a woman who is mastered or is in the process of being mastered would display such a mindset, training it out of her would be put on the "to do" list.

It is expected of kajirae, and trained into them, to treat their own thoughts and opinions and deferential to those of the Free.
Just imagine any debate a Free would choose to have with a kajira and the conversation ending with disagreement.
Statements from the kajira like "we'll just have to agree to disagree" or "well, I don't agree with that, and I'm entitled to my own opinion" just wouldn't be considered acceptable. The first because it's an order to a Free, the second because it's a declaration of possession towards a Free.
Not because the Free doesn't realize and accept that the kajira is capable of disagreeing, but because she presumes to have the same rights as the Free poses.

There isn't a problem if she thinks for herself, there is a problem if she assumes that the fact that she is able to think for herself means that she owns her own thoughts.

Ishtar

_____________________________


Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Un-Ownables - 4/16/2011 12:01:46 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Ahh okay, now i see what you are saying and agree.  

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Un-Ownables - 4/16/2011 12:05:26 PM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Edited to add this -- are you meaning that a slave's opinion doesn't have any value to the Free in general and that her belief her thoughts (i.e., opinion) is an entitlement that should be accepted is what she is not welcome to believe?



Not that it doesn't have value.
Whether or not an opinion a kajira has possesses value in the eyes of the Free is contextual.
But yes on the second part of that statement.

Edited to add: And I would have been shocked if you had still disagreed once I had communicated my thoughts clearly enough. It's pretty "Gorean slavery 101" that kajirae aren't entitled to anything.

Ishtar

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 4/16/2011 12:09:39 PM >

_____________________________


Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Un-Ownables - 4/16/2011 12:24:36 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		grins,  well i was shocked when i thought you were saying men controlled their slave's actual thoughts.    What can i say, its a saturday and i am allowed not to put two and two together on Saturdays :-)

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Un-Ownables - 4/16/2011 12:43:35 PM   
tyrasia


Posts: 102
Joined: 9/16/2008
Status: offline 		~FR~
*sighs and hates semantics*

When i said "Of course anyone is welcome to think what they want, eveyone's personal truth is valid." the stuff to the right of the equal...err i mean comma was a nice way to say: Everyone is welcome to assume what they want about the who, what, when where, and hows about me or the question i asked. They can think what they want about my motivations, what i am or am not looking for, what i have and haven't done to find it and what not. Some will be correct in that, their deductions might match what i see as facts, others', not so much. i just thought that putting it that way wouldn't go over too well....especially here, so i tried to convey the point more respectfully.

Valid...ok ys i don't work with a dictionary next to me so i thank you for pointing out that the technical use of that term is wrong and should be replaced with another word....or words added...so i will add. eveyone's personal truth is valid within their reality. sorry i left that out. Most think their reality and perception of (truth) is the only one. i have never thought that and i am sorry that it caused confusion.

i'd like to thank everyone who posted their words of advice and wisdom. Thank You all.

tyr

edited to add punctuation and caps (not taken meds yet)

< Message edited by tyrasia -- 4/16/2011 12:45:36 PM >

_____________________________

'Life isn't about how to survive the storm, but how to dance in the rain.'

'If i can laugh at something 3 times i can deal with it to it's completion' ~tyrasia~

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Un-Ownables - 4/16/2011 1:35:15 PM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tyrasia

*sighs and hates semantics*


I think you've proven that you hate semantics (considering the meaning of words) when you explained that what you where trying to say was:

"The fact that everybody that I interact with will have an opinion of who and what I am based on my actions doesn't mean all those opinions are correct"

When what you in actuality said was:

"Everybody's opinion of who and what I am is necessarily always correct."

Considering that you apparently use words opposite to their actual English meaning, maybe it's time you do start typing with a dictionary next to you.

But if semantics bother you that much, I'll be happy to from now on assume that you literally mean what you say, instead of giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you mean the absolute opposite of what you say when that seems more relevant...

Next time you want to tell people that the inferences they made about you based on your own actions are incorrect, you may want to stick to simple explaining exactly why they where incorrect, instead of adding passive aggressive jabs at the end, in an attempt to be "nice".

Ishtar

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 4/16/2011 1:38:16 PM >

_____________________________


Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to tyrasia)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Un-Ownables - 4/16/2011 3:38:27 PM   
tyrasia


Posts: 102
Joined: 9/16/2008
Status: offline 		previous to the beginning of this thread, which was going well imho, there were a lot of time i'd write something and people would think it sounded disrespectful (which has nothing to do with nice, sorry). So i have been trying to watch how i composed things. Sorry it doesn't meet your standards.

i am not saying every, or anyone for that matter is correct or not with any finality. Merely that some peoples 'truth' or perceptions, match closer or less close with my own.

The easiest way to figure out what i mean is ask. i know that my brain works differently than the norm and that i have composition problem, but they are not the same and do not equate to communication problems. i have the ability to explain the same thing in many different ways.

tyr

_____________________________

'Life isn't about how to survive the storm, but how to dance in the rain.'

'If i can laugh at something 3 times i can deal with it to it's completion' ~tyrasia~

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 37
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