aromanholiday
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This is a brilliant post with lots of wisdom in it. Thank you for writing all of this out. It inspired me, so I've quoted it at length and responded to the various paragraphs with what they made me think of.
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ORIGINAL: barelynangel
OP, your impression is correct, personally i think most of them last longer than they should. And the reason why i believe is exactly because of the "oh my god this is the one forever" idea MANY people believe M/s should be.
Oh yes, the romantic myth. "Tru Luv 4 Evah" is very popular on the non-Gorean side of M/s as well. When you actually meet someone capable of mastering you, more often than not it is a sobering and frightening-to-terrifying experience (if you're halfway aware of the consequences) with a tinge of fatalism and a big dollop of practicality to it as well, but with none of the romantic "I believe when I fall in love with you it'll be forever" feeling to it. It's more of a feeling of relief: he fits, he is what I need, thank god the search stage is over with, but now something much harder begins and I must prepare. That's how I experience it. Over time, love can grow, and grow very strong, but it or its sentimental counterpart, "In Love," have never been there initially, at least not when dealing directly with a man capable of mastering me. The only time I felt initially romantic toward a man I thought could master me was with a fellow who talked a most excellent online talk, but had no follow-through in reality. I'd had some experience by then and I should have known that the romantic feelings we both expressed were a substitute for the real thing, the actual mastery of someone and removal of her power, but I didn't. Oh well, it wasn't a total loss--I learned learned many things from the experience, including the fact that I can still be fooled and drawn in by lesser aspirations.
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In the world of slavery and the natural existance of this type of relationship between a Man and a woman, there has to be two components that exist for it to not only occur but to last. 1) You have to have a Man who is capable of mastering a woman and holding her to his determination for her to exist in his life as he wishes, and 2) you have to have a woman who is capable of being mastered to the extent a Man capable of mastery can hold her to his determination for her to exist in his life as he wishes.
This is a profoundly important point. I hope I do not mess up your idea with my own interpretation. Both pieces, exactly as you describe them, have to be there. And, as you say later, the slave side of this has nothing to do with her ability to keep a commitment or honor a vow--while loyalty is always nice have prepackaged in someone's temperament, it can also be built, so these things aren't the primary requirement. For someone to be enslaved, they have to be capable of being mastered. That sounds circular, but what this means to me is very simple and also largely unpopular: they have to be weak enough (and, perhaps, smart enough to understand the importance of being weak enough) to be controlled by someone capable of mastery over a woman. Some people are naturally that way, others have to work hard to attain a significant degree of weakness or vulnerability, but however it is arrived at it needs to be there. That "openness," as it is sometimes called, is what draws someone capable of fully mastering a woman.
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MANY M/s relationships aren't based upon this concept because the type of people are the exception, not the rule, but instead the relationship is in fact a contract. You see it when some of the men here speak about what they expect from the women -- if you say you are a slave, then i expect you to obey. If you really listen to what many men say i discussions of same, the relationship control is on the woman -- not themselves, a lot do not take the responsibility of determining the relationship in the long run outside the "I am the master, you are my slave." They leave it to the woman to maintain the condition of slave and therefore, relationship.
Which is why so many women freely walk away from such situations. Not only is she not being held securely in an inescapable net (often such masters tell those people who are supposed to be their slaves that they may "walk away" at any time), but she is expected to dominate herself while her largely non-dominant "master" passively lets her do it all. I think that before such a woman walks, however, she may talk a big talk for a very long time about her honour and her commitment to her master, forgetting the important point that you mentioned: that if she has to be held there by her personal word, then he's totally failed to take control of her. When a master does fully control slave, the latter's personal word, commitment, honor, are meaningless concepts--they are irrelevant to the condition of slavery, which is a base state of imprisonment in which one is firmly kept from escaping. However willing and ready you may be to embrace such a reality, in the end its irreversibility--if it is real--is pretty searing, even to the most cooperative and compliant of individuals. I don't think a woman should undertake something like this unless she's comfortable and willing to hear that cage or cell door clang shut and lock, with the knowledge that it may never, ever be opened again, should her master will it. I mean literal cage or cell here, not a romantic metaphor. If you are unwilling to accept whatever may come to you, including the relatively easy trial of living in a small, enclosed space forever and never being let out, then you should not seek out someone who is capable of enslaving you, as that very thing that you hate or fear the worst may be the thing he wants from you or decides to subject you to.
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"There can also be the concept of people change, but to me, if a woman is slave -- she will still seek her master -- the issue is, many women settle because that natural master is not easy to find and they would rather settle than continue seeking."
Truly said. I think that settling is usually a mistake, but it's an understandable one. The long, lonely wait or search for that rare individual may wear someone down. But there's a danger in settling. Out of misplaced loyalty or romantic feelings or frequently both a slave may fool herself for years or even decades with the illusion that she has found the object of her search, even if she quietly admitted to herself in the beginning that she was "settling." So we get the lovely phenomenon of pseudo-slaves, women who are totally convinced they are enslaved or are prime slave material because their "masters" pander to their egos and flatter them, and because they have a strong stake in believing this lie (they want the security, comfort, and pleasures of the romantic relationship they've formed and they can't bear to face that they aren't really being controlled or mastered very much). When such a woman finally detaches from her master and puts herself back up on the block, she may find herself impossibly rigid, totally convinced that her understanding of slavery is the only right view and even supersedes that of any potential master, and, in her pride over her knowledge and experience, unwilling/unable anymore to bend, to be open, to weaken herself to point where another's mind and will can penetrate her life and fill it with his own. She'll have rules and conditions and hard limits and defenses against true control galore, but all of these will be dishonestly based around the false idea that these resistances to control actually are manifestations of a deep understanding of slavery and "if only" the one trying to master her had as deep an understanding as hers, he would pamper and spoil her in the ways she's become accustomed to. Such a slave is in a very bad situation: a trap of her own making. It's far better, in my opinion, to be in the trap of a strong man's making.
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BUT ALSO, while in the books she would still have been kept in the institution of slavery thereby not having the freedom to seek outside the choice of the man to sell her and another to buy her.
It's a pity real life can't be more like those books.
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In our society, she seeks a relationship hoping the right one may click as her natural master. The problem then is, she is bound in her mind to the committment she made, which will hinder her search and perhaps finding her natural master -- because she allows honor and pride to hold her in a committment she made.
Bingo! This point puts so much that I've observed in perspective. Some of my wondering about why in the world certain slaves stay in the unsatisfying and unslavelike situations find themselves in is answered by this. Of course, as you say, it's the attempt to fill the empty hole of lack of control with your own personal commitment.
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I believe a lot of them don't last long because its hard work on the man's part and many times they get complacent. They want what they want but they don't get that it has to be maintained because let's face it -- people, including women, don't want to live in slavery, slavery is not the reason women become slaves. I know a lot of women run around going ohhhhhh i love to please and serve that is why i am a slave -- sorry that is simple BS. IF that were the case they would take on careers that all they would do is please and serve, their lives would reflect this big pleasing and serving concept. They become slaves because of the Men, they want to be the object of the man's pleasure. And in the end, when the "honeymoon" disappears and reality sets in and being ordered around and being told what to do and working while he sits around etc etc etc and having to somehow "accept" this situation cause well gee he's the master, just isn't the glorious situation they pictured. So they realize that they can do better.and because the men become non-complacent with regard to the mastery -- the relationship falls apart and disenegrates.
"They become slaves because of the Men, they want to be the object of the man's pleasure." Yes, yes, and YES. They may very well want to please, but to please in a very specific way: they want to please and serve a strong man who inspires them and whose ability to dominate them turns them on.
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The issue is because there aren't any legalities that maintain the institution, a woman is then released to maintain her own autonomy and self-determination. Freedom is a powerful concept that even women who are naturally slaves of men will fight even themselves hard to maintain that condition and in this society its rather easy. Men are incapable of using their slave against them and mastering them into the condition of slavery, so they can be selective and they can utilize freedom to brush off the weak men who exist in our society.
There are a few strong men who can master a slave without either legal sanction or a woman's own free self-determination and commitment to back it up, but as you say, these men are very rare. I personally think they're worth waiting for or patiently seeking out--for as long as it takes.
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This isn't an insult to men, its just the reality. A slave seeks the strength of men and in exchange they live for the pleasure of men.
Another very wise and, in both my experience and observation, an absolutely true remark.
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If the men are in capable of holding up their end of the bargain -- then the women will in fact use her own autonomy to move on to someone else.
Of course, because this woman is not truly enslaved by such a man. It's a pseudo "lets use the words but not really mean it" enslavement.
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I think what a lot of people fail to realize is -- even though a woman is free, if she is slave and she acknowledges that to herself -- and sometimes even if she doesn't -- she is "on her own" rather than through the institution of slavery, seeking a Master. So its not surprising for a woman to go through many men before finding the one who has the longevity to maintain her as she needs in his mastery.
Well, a few of us with more ascetic temperaments (and perhaps a low tolerance for simulation) prefer to wait it out alone however long it takes rather than settle, even temporarily, but I agree with your general point--it's far more common to sample the wares and learn from experience. There's no need to sample, however, if you already know what tastes best to you, and how to recognize it when you come across it.
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In the books -- outside the captivity of slavery -- a woman did in fact get passed around a lot until that one man caught her so to speak. The only difference here is the element is exchanged where the woman is the one who passes herself around, rather than the law. It may not be as obvious as the books because the legalities don't have the buy/sell concept.
What an interesting idea. I see the parallel you are drawing. It's still getting passed around, no matter who does the passing, and, ideally, learning from each experience as you go along.
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And as Ishtarr suggested, there are many women who after being slave may actually realize that they don't wish to exist in ultimate mastery of a Man and live by HIS determinations for her due to their experience either as a slave or what they found when they embraced their freedom, so they seek a man who they know either isn't capable of ultimate mastery and who won't demand she exist in his life as he determines or they seek a man who doesn't want that. In the end, if men allow her to do this, then she will remain free as long as she is never again caught in a Man's determination to master her to exist in his life as he wishes.
I am not acquainted with this sort of experience but what you say about it rings true to me.
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All in all, to me, M/s is not meant to last long on the general level because most people aren't that lucky to find that natural master/slave connection on the first try. And i don't believe a woman even if she is slave, should settle for half-assed mastery to exist in a condition of "slavery" based on principle or being "honor" bound because she made an "agreement" with a guy to be his slave. To me, if it wasn't for this element of a woman feeling honorbound to be a slave cause she said she would be, the Gorean M/s relationships would probably be even shorter in nature.
Again, all of this makes perfect sense. To paraphrase, it isn't slavery if you have to enslave yourself with honor and commitment. Loyalty is great in a slave, often a very pleasing characteristic, but with a strong man, it is not required in order that she be kept a slave. He'll see to that.
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I know this seems all over the place, but i really do believe that our M/s relationships even the Gorean ones last longer than most did in the books. And i think most should be shorter lol but to me it seems the men hold her to her "committment" to being their slave and because the men allow it, she holds herself to same because she feels honor bound to maintain her decision and committment.
Sorry but you can't embrace the concept of slave and the condition of mastery when a Man is requiring a woman to use her honor to keep a contract of slavery he believes she agreed to, the pride in maintaining an agreement she made to "be a slave" and the dignity of having the ability to make and maintain an agreement.
I agree fully. That is not slavery, that's self-determinism.
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Slaves because of the state in which they exist, should not be allowed the honor, pride, and dignity free people utilize because they are free.
This is completely true, in my experience. What a great way to end an extraordinary post.
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Not sure if this makes sense, i know its all over the place.
It made quite good sense to me. Again, thank you for posting this.
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How many Gorean M/s relationships last? - 
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And it is extremely rare, whether inside or outside of Gorean lifestyles. But make no mistake, it does exist. The rarity of something does not prove its non-existence. 
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