nephandi
Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Greetings
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Well, of course I did finish the series, at least until Norman decided somehow nobody got the message in the previous two dozen books so he obviously needed to write more books, right?
I do not think Norman wanted anyone to get any messages, he writes books because he have the imagination to and because it earns him money. Norman first did not like the Gorean lifestyle at all and found us all to be insane, later he have accepted the lifestyle and to a certain degree I think he is proud of it, however he never intended for people to get anything but their wallets when it came to his books.
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Unfortunately one must read a majority of the series and then reread book one before you realize it was all in book one to begin with, Norman's philosophy is all there for a reason I've already suggested in an earlier post. In this book are the codes, master and slave morality contrasted, honor, the natural role of women and men, and the role of love in that relationship, Norman's disdain for organized religion and it's use to enslave the masses, and the growth of a man who was one of many sent every 1000 years to change Gor.
Actually to my mind book one is the one that have the least of the philosophy and the most of the science fiction. Now what you are saying here sounds to me like read the whole thing and then discard anything that do not fit with your ideas. Now this is not a bad way to construct a personal lifestyle and philosophy, however you still here pick one fruit of the tree and leave the rest of the fruit to rot because you only enjoyed the flavor of that one fruit.
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I've not met a woman who thinks harsh treatment is delightful.
Really? Why do you not post a few posts outside of the Gorean section of this forum and you might meet some.
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I have met women who are in love with the male commanding presence in their life and who enjoy pleasing him in any of his moods, mostly, but such men are never harsh, strict perhaps, but not harsh, sadistic for their pleasure and hers perhaps, but never harsh, trustworthy almost to a fault, but never harsh. Don't you agree that harshness is a sign of weakness in men? Harshness is not part of dominating, it is not needed or wanted to be commanding, it is not part of trust or love, it is not part of being a Master because a commanding man need not use harshness or a stern voice to command. Instead, harshness is used to cover an inablity to command otherwise.
First off all you need to define what you mean about harshness, for if you mean the same by it as the dictionary meaning of the word then no I do not agree with you. Harshness is not the opposite of caring. We Norwegians know harsh, we see it every winter in our wild, harsh nature, it shapes us like a people. Harshness is not raising one's voice, it is being uncompromising and demanding.
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On the subject of the ideal way Norman suggest women be treated and their roles, I can name several leading characters who serve as examples in how they love their slave as a perfect master including Tarl in book one, Kamchak of the Wagon Peoples, Rask of Treve and of course Clitus Vitellius, brave Captain of Ar, who falls in love with his Earth slave girl Judy Thornton and she him and by page 445 in "Slave Girl" she says "I love you Master" and he then touched her with sweetness and tenderness (not harshness) and even though Judy says he made love to her gently while she new he could instantly turn "brutal" this cannot be construed to be "harsh" but instead a style of love making many enjoy in real life. Finally, the last sentence in "Slave Girl of Gor" ends with "contented myself with turning to the tasks of love" (at the "end of the day" as I say)
No one have said that there is not love in the Gor books, however the problem is that you have taken a tiny bit of the books and stared yourself blind on it. In Norway we have an expression, you do not see the forest for all the trees. First of all Gorean lifestyle is not about the slaves, it is not about loving a slave, it is about being true to yourself. For you being true to yourself is obviously about love, but that is not the essence of the philosophy. Secondly yes there often develop love between a Master and a slave, and more frequently the slave love the Master, however that is not the point of Gorean slavery, Gorean slavery is about what pleased the Master, so that if the Master is you then obviously love is a big part of it, but it do not need to be. Gorean slavery is about unyielding men enforcing their desires on women, and how that can often make a woman bloom.
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So, perhaps you might reconsider what I have said regarding harshness and how women are truly treated by the main characters in the Gorean Sagas "at the end of the day" so to speak and you might also find if you clear your mind of preconceive notions of harsh slavery and reread a few of these books you will find Norman does not suggest harsh treatment of women is to be an objective in the Sagas or his other series btw.
Let me see in the books we have had women slaves banded, abandoned, tortured for information, threatened to be killed repeatedly, tied to oars and used to row a boat, used as bait to catch wild animals, beaten, locked in a tiny box, held out of the side of a cliff and threatened to be dropped, need I go on. I know that for you the Gor books read as sweet as your average yaoi novella, however the rest of us do see a bit more, yes harshness in the books than that. No slaves where usually not mistreated as long as they behaved, however that do not mean it was not all based on the desired of the Master, it was often a mutually enjoyable relationship, but it definitely did not have to be.
Also if you look at the various cultures Normann have taken inspiration from the Gor books, Ancient Rome, Viking culture, Ancient Greek and so on you will not find much love and butterflies there when it comes to the treatment of slaves. yes slaves where often treated reasonably well as they where expensive, some even became lovers or important advisors, but have no illusions, it was all based on the wishes of the Master and if the slave found some happiness in it fine, but if not though luck.
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True. Norman does not want you to be like the masses on Gor or Earth. How the majority of slaves on Gor are treated is not what Norman is suggesting we do. Instead, focus on the heroes such as Tarl, Rask and others who were not the "same" as the majority and therefore examples we should follow.
Norman do not desire anything but that we buy his books. The Gor books where not written to create a lifestyle, they where created as fiction, what Goreans do is draw inspiration from this work to make a lifestyle and to do that effectively one need to draw from all of the work, not just pick out choice parts.
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I am not a "same", that is for sure.
I think you have misunderstood the point here. The point is that one should not just follow others blindly, one should be oneself, one should not have a society where everyone is supposed to be the same, so the great is pulled down into the grime and all we have is a huge mass of mediocrity, the point is not however to be different just for the sake of being different, if that where the case someone paining them self pink and putting yellow feathers in their ass and saying quack quack would be the most Gorean of all as they definitely would not be the same as everyone else. The point is to be yourself, to develop yourself and stretch yourself to be as great as you can whatever that takes you the same route as others or not.
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What is the point, entirely? The entire point is to not to be like the majority (who thought it natural to kidnap, whip, brand and rape from the start as you say). The Romanticizing was one of the points which is why it is prominent in book 1 and in most of the other books partly because Goreans are romantics It is true that Gor is a harsh world and each of these characters who found love with their perfect slaves were the product of that world but they evolved during each book to be the perfect master, not harsh and untrusted and feared but commanding, loving and trusted. You might note that Tarl was sent to change Gor and some of that translated into influencing the key characters he met in Book 1 and succeeding books.
The point is to be yourself, not to be different for any cost. Also love and harshness is not opposites and the greatest love can sometimes rise from the greatest harshness. We get it that you love book 1 and since the rest of the books are not one long spaceships and sandals novel you ignore any lesson to be found there. What sometimes puzzles me then is why do you not read harlequin books instead if big strong men who love submissive women is your thing, you find allot of it there, I particularly recommend Harlequin Nocturne if you are of a science fiction bent as you will find sci fi, horror and fantasy stories there. Why do you choose the Gor books that have only a tiny hint of what you prefer and then try to twist them into being about something they are not. Yes there is love in the Gor books, and yes it is nice when a Master and a slave find love and it happens now and again in the books, but it is not about that. Also, some of the most harsh people I know are also some of the most trustworthy.
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Yet, the subject is "Gorean philosophy: truth or fiction".
Yes and the OP asked a question, you know the thing some people do before they jump to conclusions.
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I suspected nothing of the sort. I am convinced the OP has framed Gorean philosophy in such a limited manner because he is a newbie.
Confrontation is a poor and weak response when there is nothing to confront and much to share in a teaching opportunity to prevent Gor from dying. One cannot teach a newbie using confrontation.
So you suspect the OP tried to frame the Gorean philosophy, and yet you do not suspect him to do so? Which one is it, call me when you figure it out. I agree that the best way to meet people with questions is to answer them, I completely agree about that, however someone having asked a perhaps misplaced newbie question do not mean they desire to frame us, desiring to frame implies intent, not a newbie just asking questions.
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Yes. I am so very frightened of a woman who I don't know living (perhaps) across half the world disagreeing with me. It has nothing to do with an honest concern about your outlook being unnaturally limited by too large a focus on CM forum postings even though admittedly it was a mistake to say so because it was none of my business and might have come off snarky.
Fear of physical violence is not the only fear out there my dear, it is also the fear of someone picking your arguments to shreds, Now about my unhealthy focus on the CM forums, since I have a lower post rate than you, after all I joined quite a few years before you did, that means that if my posting is unhealthy you should have some problems of your own right now.
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BTW, I'm not trying to "appear" Gorean. I'm just a man, nothing special.
No...to comment here would be a to cheap shot, to easy.
I wish you well
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Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad
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RE: Gorian philosophy: truth or fiction - 
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