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RE: Gorean slave rape - 10/8/2011 1:49:24 PM   
Madame4a


Posts: 2027
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline 		Your grasp of feminist history is really not too good. I think if you're going to make claims about it, you should back it up.

_____________________________

You're crazy bitch
But you f*ck so good, I'm on top of it
When I dream, I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

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Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Gorean slave rape - 10/8/2011 4:24:36 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 7255
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I haven't read any of the Gorean books. I don't intend to because I know that the 'philosophy' they're based on is drivel...

Spoken like a modern day Cesare Cremonini or Giulio Libri.

K.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Gorean slave rape - 10/8/2011 4:40:30 PM   
Dinnardin


Posts: 387
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I haven't read any of the Gorean books. I don't intend to because I know that the 'philosophy' they're based on is drivel...

Spoken like a modern day Cesare Cremonini or Giulio Libri.

K.


Or the entire on-air crew at Fox "News"

John, AKA Dinnardin

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Gorean slave rape - 10/9/2011 3:17:35 AM   
mons


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		As I had said " ,my reply's are not answered and this is okay!  But I am shocked to see this
brand of '"we do not see you so you do not exist" kind of emotional thing going on here!  Why is this
if someone does not agree with what you said or written, it is truly okay, really it is!  I did not expect an answer from
anyone but to speak of fxing one 'hog" and just go on as if someone has not given you a chance to explain why you
think the way you do!  If I had not come back to read what was said I would certainingly thought "what in  the world is going on?  I am not here to word fight with anyone " I explain why i had wrote but alas all good things come to an end!
But what can one do certaining not jump all over everyone for not answering but acting the way you do, thinking everyone is attacking your whole group, you  have gaven food for thought you all and i am sorry to say this but gorean;s what has happen you now burst with cult like behavior!  As a group you close the doors on anything said or asked.  I am the whom really just saw you as you are people whom think the way you wish and want, no thoughts of your being anything but human! Even I can handle many things but just to talk over someone is just not right!  I remember a time when anyone whom had a question was given an asnwer, with respect and good fun!  What has happen here, with this group I knew, and yes I did learn many things!  Something happen when I was gone and i was away too long!  Walking away and with respect i do feel sorry for any group who lost some of it fine qualities!  Words with mean spirit, and no good thought never gain a soul one single thing, please take care of all you!  I do not go where I am not welcome, but mind you I "will seek out masterIron bear the real one" !!! 
What happen to trust in others?

mons/jane

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Gorean slave rape - 10/9/2011 7:12:40 AM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1072
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline 		Wow.

Mons, you read too much into what is said.  

My post was not telling someone that they don't exist...please re-read and if necessary have someone explain it to you.  I stated that anything other then a Hog, more then likely won't get noticed by anyone who appreciates motorcycles, so how a starter motor is painted, won't matter.   It's like, asking D Wayne Lukas what color he prefers in a plow horse, if it isn't a thoroughbred, he more then likely won't care.

If this doesn't explain things to your level of understanding, I'm sorry, it's the best I can do.  I typically don't respond to posts I can't make heads or tails out of...so this is an exception :)


_____________________________

"Harry Potter is all about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight, is all about how important it is to have a boyfriend"
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(in reply to mons)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Gorean slave rape - 10/9/2011 4:46:33 PM   
mons


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		alwayslisa

it was not your post I was replying too it was someone with a very long
name  I will look back and return with the person name!   Oh I know the term hog it is for a motor cylce!  Now
I think your returning my reply as to why someone whom liked a person and then turn on them, on a dime!
That does not work anymore i understand and I am not at less
insult by what you wrote!  Remember it was not yours this person explain
how Gorean slavery made woman become more likely not to run, since they
had no home to return too!  no lisa it is not you!  But your most welcome!  I do not '
fight that fight you fight so well " i have not the time or place for it" Please have some tea
I am having some!  You must be young to be so angry, there is no place in the world for this
type of mayhem, child!  As we grow we learn, as we learn we grow!  I have learn so much more
and I am blessed to be here!  I have no fight with you or anyone here!  I have been tried by the
best, and they could not get a holler from me!  Do be civil to others whom ask questions it is the right and
honorable way, attack no one, remember "hold to your own words you by live with honor above all"!!!!!!!  Your cute Lisa take care :0)  Now that was indeed fun!

mons/jane p.s. who is d lukas I do not care for footballers so who is he! 

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Gorean slave rape - 10/9/2011 5:03:02 PM   
mons


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		Goreans, where did all of the angry come from, has someone been teasing you
stopping you from talking or explaining what you think?  I do not understand?  But I
do understand this once you were proud and a pleasant place to write too, now bitter 'angry
words shoot all over the place!  I see there is a new "breed " in you, some young some older but none as wise
as before!   They could explain it well, and make it a peaceful in the end !

mons/jane

(in reply to mons)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Gorean slave rape - 10/9/2011 5:50:39 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 8119
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		Hi Jane,

I took Angel's advice from this thread or the other Gorean rape thread and got "Slave Girl of Gor" and agree with her that John Norman uses the word "rape" differently than you or I would. Once I learned that "Gorean slave rape" /= Earth rape, I was able to (mostly) bow out of this thread.

One critic says, "Norman is hardly the only author to use a distasteful metaphor to explore more deeply into the human psyche."

"Norman appears to have a pretty low opinion of anyone that would actually, subjugate, abuse, or rape a woman.

So what was Norman's purpose in writing the Gorean saga? I imagine one purpose was to earn a little extra money in order to better support his family or perhaps to see if he could write a heroic fantasy in the tradition of Edgar Rice Burroughs, but the main purpose seems to have been providing a satirical counterpoint to the more extreme rhetoric of radical feminists.

The radical feminists equated romantic love and marriage with slavery, so the only romantic relationships Norman explores in detail in the books are, of course, with slaves. The most extreme feminists categorize all sex as rape, so Norman repeatedly has eager and willing slaves beg their masters for "slave rape". Lastly, female orgasm is claimed to be "oppressive to women", so the "oppressed" slave is described as having the most immediate and powerful sexual and orgasmic responses. Clearly Norman is using slavery as a metaphor in order to explore the absurdity of radical feminist dogma."

Best,

KK

(in reply to mons)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Gorean slave rape - 10/9/2011 6:54:58 PM   
mons


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		Kalikshama hello

wow that explains so much more!  I have always respected this group
you have seen my writing and my thoughts many years ago!,
I am now and have been a dominant, i need to read the books, this explain
it and the satirical words he use for women's movement say it all!  So
much can be explain when the time is taken, again thank you!  My best to you
and all! 

mons/jane :0)

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Gorean slave rape - 11/5/2011 5:33:34 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

I am late to the thread, I am sorry but since it is still on the board's front page I thought it was okey to answer.

quote:

Reading this you would think then why on earth did he use such a word as rape when what he was saying was fuck.


Now I might be very simple minded here, but with all due respect I think this thread over analyze and complicate a simple concept. I do not think the term slave rape have anything to do with feminism one way or the other. Basically non consensual sex is rape, it can be violent or not, but unless all parties agree to have sex then it is rape. A slave on Gor no longer had the right consent or not consent so in effect all sex with the slave would be raping her, by calling it slave rape the Master could send a powerful message, it do not matter how much you enjoy it, it do not matter if you want it, your opinion do not matter you can no longer consent to anything so sex for you is rape. Now I might be wrong but I think it is as simple as that.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Gorean slave rape - 11/5/2011 5:53:05 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

I get that you guys have some groupthink going on here, that words mean one thing to you and something entirely different to the rest of the world, but this is pretty ridiculous.


The problem here is that we are not discussing the dictionary meaning of the word rape, what is being discussed is whatever or not a given author's use of this word in his fictional work where a reaction to a claim some radical feminists made at the time when the Gor books where first written. Now this is not about all feminists, many feminists still fought to be recognized for their skills and abilities on equal footing as men, and I can admire that, some feminists however went ballistic against men and said things like sex is rape, indicating that a woman could never enjoy sex with a man, it was always an act of aggression against women.

Now I like I said in my above post do not think this is the reason for Norman's use of the term slave rape, but can you imagine a man working at a university, a place where this new feminism where very popular, a man who was told that him making love to his wife was raping her that he might not get a little upset and is it not then possible he chose to write about it?

Now I admire first wave feminists, hell most of us that are Gorean women would not have had the chance to follow this philosophy had it not been for the first wave feminists actually giving us the right to choose our own path in life and not requiring us to ask our fathers permission before we did anything. But then again, what is being discussed is not so much historical fact as speculation about John Norman's ideas around feminism. It is like if we where to discuss Victor Hugo's ideas about France at the time he wrote Les Miserabels, it would not necessarily be a historically correct account of what France where like at the time, nor would that be the point, the point would be to try to get into the author's head and try to figure out what he thought about it and how that influenced his writing.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Gorean slave rape - 11/6/2011 6:42:44 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		~FR~

Yeah I think it has been over analyzed as well, mainly because of the emotional landmine of the word rape. In an archaic verb usage, it means to seize and take away by force. One of the synonyms for it is ravish. Now combine the qualifier of "slave" in a Gorean context, and it pretty much means to ravish a slave.

It really is not that difficult once you take away the emotional trigger of the word "rape" by itself.

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(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Gorean slave rape - 11/6/2011 9:42:27 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

Yeah I think it has been over analyzed as well, mainly because of the emotional landmine of the word rape. In an archaic verb usage, it means to seize and take away by force. One of the synonyms for it is ravish. Now combine the qualifier of "slave" in a Gorean context, and it pretty much means to ravish a slave.

It really is not that difficult once you take away the emotional trigger of the word "rape" by itself.


I agree. The problem is that, and this is a bit unrelated, that there are so many emotional trigger words in English, or Norwegian for that matter, and I assume most other languages, and people tend to go ballistic when such words are used. Rape is a powerful word yes, but it also represent some of the seriousness of the position a Gorean slave is in. Perhaps that is part of why some react so strongly to the term slave rape and analyze it left and right. Anyway I am babbling so I will stop now I just wanted to say, i agree with what you said.

I wish you well.


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Gorean slave rape - 11/8/2011 8:50:58 PM   
orchid77


Posts: 122
Joined: 5/20/2011
Status: offline 		To the OP...as we know rape is not about fucking or sex. It is about power and control. Slave rape in Gor would be about the master having complete and utterly control over his slave. Whether she consented to intercourse or not- he had complete power & control not just over her mind, body, and spirit but her sex. Which is why Norman makes such a big deal of the slave yielding during the act...because she was submitting before his control- liberating herself fully to him as a slave. I remember one scene where a woman is told to lie flat on the floor with her legs wide open and arm down...Norman explained this was the most degrading act of slave rape. Because in this act...the master is not simply taken her...she is putting herself in the situation of being taken. Unwillingly consenting to be raped. What a mindfuck for this woman.

Norman has some serious issues regarding women as did Freud.

< Message edited by orchid77 -- 11/8/2011 8:52:24 PM >

(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Gorean slave rape - 11/9/2011 12:29:23 AM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1584
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: online 		Greetings orchidy77.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: orchid77

To the OP...as we know rape is not about fucking or sex. It is about power and control.


Despite the long time feminist misinformation, no, all rape is not about control and especially men controlling women. Rape happens, not that often, but it does happen with women raping men. Most rape, or what is defined legally as rape is about sex. Consensual sex between underage people, date rape, marital rape, unable to give legal consent (drunk) rape and yes, even blitz rape is often about sex, not control. Control can be present in any of those, but since that covers over 90% of the rapes that happen, then no, most rapes are not about power and control. Brownmiller was shot down on that point decades ago.

quote:

Slave rape in Gor would be about the master having complete and utterly control over his slave. Whether she consented to intercourse or not- he had complete power & control not just over her mind, body, and spirit but her sex. Which is why Norman makes such a big deal of the slave yielding during the act...because she was submitting before his control- liberating herself fully to him as a slave. I remember one scene where a woman is told to lie flat on the floor with her legs wide open and arm down...Norman explained this was the most degrading act of slave rape. Because in this act...the master is not simply taken her...she is putting herself in the situation of being taken. Unwillingly consenting to be raped. What a mindfuck for this woman.

Norman has some serious issues regarding women as did Freud.


Until your last sentence, you were pretty much right. When you read the author talking about sex and about what should and should not be done, you get a very different picture of what he really believes than what characters in his books believe and do. Did Thomas Harris, the author of "Silence of the Lambs" believe that cannibalism was a good thing? He wrote about someone who liked to eat people. If Norman had a "thing" about women, then Harris had a similar "thing" about cannibals....right? Until you read what the author wrote about writing the books and how he feels about women, you really don't know what he thought, do you?

Be well....

Malkinius

_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is beauty.

(in reply to orchid77)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Gorean slave rape - 11/9/2011 3:16:36 AM   
mons


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		Rape is about control, power and some men do not ejaculte when they rape
a woman! but your ideal of rape is not the same as i know it, why i respect your views
but this one is a nightmare for me and many others whom have truly been raped!

mons

(in reply to Malkinius)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Gorean slave rape - 11/9/2011 4:33:31 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

To the OP...as we know rape is not about fucking or sex. It is about power and control.


I hear this over and over again and I think it is actually a rather dangerous myth. Yes off course some rapists do it for power and control, other do it out of anger as a way to harm someone, but some do it for sex. Do you think someone who takes advantage of a drunk girl at a party thinks, oh how much control I am getting now, no thy think with their dick ad unfortunately in some people the wants of the dick win out over morality. By constantly repeating that no rape is ever about sex young girls do not protect themselves, they drink themselves to a stupor wearing next to nothing and then come with men back to their place for a nightcap as surly rape never happens due to sexual desire. There is no one motivation for rape, different rapists do it for different reasons and yes sometimes sexual desire is the reason why a man, or a woman, rapes another person.

quote:

Norman has some serious issues regarding women as did Freud.


So because the man writes about subjugating woman he must have issues with women? So that means that if someone writes a murder mystery they must want to kill someone, sorry but that makes no sense to me. What fictional situations an author writes about is no judge as to what they feel about women, murder or anything else, it is fiction. I mean we that follow the Gorean lifestyle have taken lessons and philosophy from that fiction, but that do not change the fact that at it's core the Gor books are fiction and  the author writing about rape in his fiction do not mean that he condone rape in real life.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to orchid77)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Gorean slave rape - 11/9/2011 4:48:24 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

Rape is about control, power and some men do not ejaculte when they rape
a woman! but your ideal of rape is not the same as i know it, why i respect your views
but this one is a nightmare for me and many others whom have truly been raped!


I am very sorry that you have been raped, you have my sympathies.

That being said, no rape is not always about control or even most of the time. Read some interviews with rapists in prison, quite often they raped women for sexual desire, for anger for any number of reasons. You seam to think all rape is the same. If someone forces another to sex against their will then they always have the same motivation. Seriously Jane if I told you about any other action that everyone who did, let us say mountain climbing, had the same motivation for doing so would you not find that ridiculous, or let us take murder, what if I told you that every killer had the same motivation would not that be a rather idiotic idea? Why then do you think rape is the only thing in the universe that always springs from the same motivation, do that make any sort of sense?

Ok some men do not ejaculate when they rape, some men do not ejaculate when they make love to their wives either, what is your point here? Ok so some rapists behave a certain way why do you take that as proof that they all do? It is like saying some killers eat burritos before they kill someone so all murderers are Mexican, it makes no sense. And besides not ejaculating do not mean there is no sexual pleasure in the picture, like I said many men actually do not either because they are unable to or a million of other reasons.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to mons)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Gorean slave rape - 11/9/2011 5:49:54 AM   
orchid77


Posts: 122
Joined: 5/20/2011
Status: offline 		To nephandi, GM I think Norman's issues comes from how he writes about the subject. You can tell it is very personal to him. Some authors write some authors write from their soul- he was one of them. As for him condoning rape...I know I didn't make this statement. So I won't answer it, but I will say rape is never about sex and all about power & control. Especially in real life. In fantasy- force sex has rules and safewords. Real rape doesn't. Slave rape would probably fall in the category of control because a kajira can protest all she wants- she is going to get raped.

Be well

(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Gorean slave rape - 11/9/2011 6:53:17 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

To nephandi, GM I think Norman's issues comes from how he writes about the subject. You can tell it is very personal to him. Some authors write some authors write from their soul- he was one of them.


Really for the Gor books, except for the philosophy bits seams to be to be rather typical trashy 1960's swords and spaceships science fiction. But let us assume Norman lay his heart and soul in the writing, do that mean that every author that do that mean what he writes about is right? Take my favorite fantasy author Robert Jordan. The man cared about his books, allot. I mean he was dying from a rather nasty form of cancer and he kept writing, when he understood he had only days left to live he gathered his wife and his agent and told them the rest of the story so they could be sure his fantasy series where completed. The man where dedicated. Now Robert Jordan wrote a series of fantasy books named Wheel of Time and there happens some seriously fucked up shit there. We have rape, torture, conquest of other nations, enslavement, soul sucking vampires, betrayal, murder the list go on and on, mention something terrible and you can be sure it happens to some character in these books. Do you think that Robert Jordan thought all these things where great, he was pro murder, enslavement and soul sucking?

Or let us take Bram Stoker you can not say Dracula is not written with both skill and soul, and yet we have a list of horrible things a mile long, among them rape, do you think Bram Stoker where pro rape and had a problem with women Because Dracula rape, suck the blood of, kills and makes a vampire out of Lucy?

I could go on and on with authors who have put everything into their books and written masterworks but where horrible things happen, that however do not make them horrible people themselves. Shakespeare did probably not approve of teenage suicide, Arthur Conan Doyle probably did not think murder where justified. Mary Shelly where not as far as we know big into grave robbing, Tolkien where not know for his love of torture, C.S Lewis probably did not think luring children into your lair with candy and enslaving them where a good idea. And so on and so on. Yes Norman write about rape and enslavement of women, that do not mean he have a problem with women or want to rape women or that he thinks what happens in his books would be a good idea.

quote:

As for him condoning rape...I know I didn't make this statement. So I won't answer it, but I will say rape is never about sex and all about power & control. Especially in real life.


So you really think every rapist have the same motivation? There is absolutely no shred of evidence for your statement, it is tossed around like truth but it is refuted again and again, by study after study. There are interviews with rapists, there is common sense, but oh no let us not question this statement because off course every rapist think the same.

quote:

In fantasy- force sex has rules and safewords. Real rape doesn't. Slave rape would probably fall in the category of control because a kajira can protest all she wants- she is going to get raped.


It is called slave rape because in the books a slave can not give consent as she have no say in her life, making sex with her rape. It is not about control or not control, it is about the owner of a slave taking what he want for whatever reason, usually his own sexual pleasure and the slave not having anything to say in whatever it is done or not.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to orchid77)
Profile   Post #: 180
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