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Gorean slave rape - 5/9/2011 6:25:41 AM   
Cherylmazana


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Status: offline 		It seems to me that there is a problem with people who do not understand anything about Gor seeing certain terms and misinterpreting them.

Rape is one of those terms, it’s a bad word a word that involves violence and non consent everywhere but in the Gorean books. For Gorean slaves the word basically means (excuse the language) fuck. In some of the books the slave asks to be raped and she is told to ask in her own language, and so she says “fuck me master”.

Reading this you would think then why on earth did he use such a word as rape when what he was saying was fuck.

To understand that you have to look at the time the books were written and one of the things that he was satirising.

In a nutshell some feminists discovered that they had a new freedom with the invention of the pill and used this freedom to explore new ideas and goals for women. Like any new idea though initially it was very raw and those who were at the forefront became almost fanatical in their beliefs, their views becoming  more and more extreme until they were writing things such as any woman who doesn’t initiate sex is being raped.

The idea that because your other half says want to have sex and you agree you are being raped is ludicrous when you look at it now, but in the early days of the emergence of hard feminists this was a common thought.

So in the books he had women begging to be raped, women begging for sex, strong independent women who often were similar to the campus females he saw all around him who said they needed no man, showing that they desperately needed a man to satisfy them, women wanting to be "raped".

I imagine that most of the main female characters were based upon women he personally knew, one of his later books is devoted entirely to taking an old bitter woman who had been a professor on a university campus who had talked extreme feminism all her life and turning her into a happy sexually active kajira. Wish fulfilment and a personal fantasy probably, and maybe a bit of private revenge.

The books irritated feminists to such an extent that they went out to destroy any chance he had of being published or taken seriously. They succeeded for years.

Satire is bad for your career when you attack wealthy independent women with power.

Cheryl


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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/9/2011 7:24:19 AM   
starshineowned


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quote:

So in the books he had women begging to be raped, women begging for sex, strong independent women who often were similar to the campus females he saw all around him who said they needed no man, showing that they desperately needed a man to satisfy them, women wanting to be "raped".


Greetings..

This part sort of turns anything that might be of true value or belief of Norman right out the window to me. What would or did Norman care if women around him were emerging, and becoming more independent and forth right? Why should he care? The only conclusion I can draw from what was quoted is that he was a wimp and a whiner, and used the books not so much to present a real theory he had of what women wanted but as nothing more than a weak mans way of saying nanny nanny boo boo probably because some chick shot his advances down.

I don't know the time line here ..whether the books were started before his encounters of budding feminism or visa versa but if its the latter the man holds zero credibility in my opinion. Taking human nature and raw emotions that I think all humans have from time to time ..both male and female doesn't really come off as anything new (as in Norman had some epiphany) simply because some books were densely filled with it.

starshine


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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/9/2011 8:36:24 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

It seems to me that there is a problem with people who do not understand anything about Gor seeing certain terms and misinterpreting them. Rape is one of those terms, it’s a bad word a word that involves violence and non consent everywhere but in the Gorean books. For Gorean slaves the word basically means (excuse the language) fuck.


Is there just one person posting as Cherylmazana? I ask because you had an entirely different take on rape on Friday:

Gorean and ancient cultures slavery rape and the after effects

quote:

Romans, Africans, Goreans and many others all had a culture where rivals after defeat would be sold into slavery, and the women raped. The Iliad is a classic example and I don’t see any psychiatrists and lawyers around to deal with the women’s psychological problems afterwards, the Sabine women instead of crying victim ended up happily married to their rapists and defended them.

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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/9/2011 8:52:41 AM   
imperatrixx


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quote:


Satire is bad for your career when you attack wealthy independent women with power.


Satire is bad for your career when you attack anyone with wealth and power :D

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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/9/2011 8:57:27 AM   
TheRaptorJesus


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Status: offline 		It doesn't help when your prose is redundant and amateurish. 

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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/9/2011 9:07:32 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana
In a nutshell some feminists discovered that they had a new freedom with the invention of the pill and used this freedom to explore new ideas and goals for women. Like any new idea though initially it was very raw and those who were at the forefront became almost fanatical in their beliefs, their views becoming  more and more extreme until they were writing things such as any woman who doesn’t initiate sex is being raped.


This overview of feminism baffles me. The first and biggest result of the pill was to free women up to have sex. This they generally enjoyed. Then came the 'free love' of the hippy era which, for a tiny few radical feminists, later came to be seen not just as exploitative of women (a more common criticism amongst feminists), but akin to rape. I've never spoken to any woman of the relevant age who saw sex that way, though. I'd be frankly astonished if a survey were to be conducted amongst women of the appropriate age and this were to demonstrate that it was a 'common view' amongst feminists, let alone women in general.

Secondly, according to the Wiki article (which, admittedly, is the first thing I've ever read about Gor and John Norman), it was only much later, when his books began to seem more violently misogynistic, that his publishers dumped him.


< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 5/9/2011 9:09:00 AM >

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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/9/2011 9:07:49 AM   
imperatrixx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Is there just one person posting as Cherylmazana? I ask because you had an entirely different take on rape on Friday:

Gorean and ancient cultures slavery rape and the after effects

quote:

Romans, Africans, Goreans and many others all had a culture where rivals after defeat would be sold into slavery, and the women raped. The Iliad is a classic example and I don’t see any psychiatrists and lawyers around to deal with the women’s psychological problems afterwards, the Sabine women instead of crying victim ended up happily married to their rapists and defended them.


Yeah, tell me about it. For some reason I don't think the intent was to convey that Roman and African women, after defeat, begged to be fucked and started calling themselves slaves as a form of metaphorical anti-feminist protest.


< Message edited by imperatrixx -- 5/9/2011 9:09:16 AM >

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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/9/2011 11:17:59 AM   
AlwaysLisa


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quote:

And while some critics allege that the Gor novels endorse rape, Norman writes: "Rape, as a sociological reality, is commonly an ugly, brutal, unpleasant, sickening, horrifying, vicious act." In other words, Norman draws a sharp line between the fictional portrayal of nonconsensual sex on Gor -- and its unsavory reality on Earth.


Quoted from http://www.server.theadvocates.org/celebrities/john-norman.html

I think the problem is that the words "slave rape" are seen in a different light among goreans.  It's not the brutal act most have come to understand.   As indicated above, JN was not an advocate for rape, the books themselves were not meant as a guide to be literally followed. 

"You can't rape the willing", is something I heard alot.  When JN wrote of the act of non consensual sex, it was truly a woman realizing for possibly the first time, her sexual nature, at the hands of a strong male.  What may have started out in the written text as a woman screaming in protest, usually wound up with screams of a different manner.  You can't confuse this with gang raping entire communities of women (between the ages of 3 and 75), strictly as an act of war. (using the Congo as a reference)

I'm not an expert by any means in what was in the books, but I can't think of one instance where the woman didn't have a change in heart, by the stories end.    It's been awhile, so my memory may be cloudy. 

The two examples need to be separated, since the meanings are vastly different.  



< Message edited by AlwaysLisa -- 5/9/2011 11:19:22 AM >

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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/9/2011 11:23:02 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Slave rape is when an owner exerts his will to have sex with his slave. It may include throwing her down, pulling her ass in the air, and grabbing a fist full of hair as he fucks her. The slave being in the position of a slave, know what this is.

I asked my girl, amira, and she said "It is when you decide you want to fuck me, regardless of my mood or desires. You handle me as you wish, you have your way with me and the feelings afterwards of being spent, is euphoric."

I can see the problem is that the word "rape" has a more generic use, than "slave rape".

It is kind of like when the discussion of what a slave comes up, and people try to compare historical, forced slavery, with excellent mastery and enforced internal enslavement.

Live well,
Orion

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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/9/2011 12:13:58 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa
The two examples need to be separated, since the meanings are vastly different.  


Amen to that.


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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/9/2011 2:30:45 PM   
crazyml


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< Message edited by crazyml -- 5/9/2011 2:33:43 PM >

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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/9/2011 4:34:27 PM   
barelynangel


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Status: offline 		1st off, i believe crossing into another thread to discuss a thread already occuring and continuing THAT discussion here IS AGAINST THE TERMS OF SERVICE. 

Folks seriously lets make this easy -- who here knows what slave rape in the GOREAN books was?  And Cheryl, no the term in the books to the slaves does not mean fuck, in fact it has nothing to do with that outside of the action which may or can not include fucking.  Orion, while your wording isn't correct, i think you know what it means but are not explaining it correctly.  I have seen you describe it a lot better in the past.

This i think is going to be interesting because i really think people put the wrong description on this phrase from the books because of the word rape.  This is one of those phrases in which you need to step OUTSIDE the legalities and think in terms of mastery of a woman, sexuality, determination, and ultimately sexual will.


angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 5/9/2011 4:41:59 PM >

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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/9/2011 4:53:59 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		Yeah I have. Just not as interested as I used to be, in explaining something that has been talked about soooooooo many times.

Our human primal urges are better felt than talked about though ;).

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Orion, while your wording isn't correct, i think you know what it means but are not explaining it correctly.  I have seen you describe it a lot better in the past.


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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/9/2011 4:59:57 PM   
barelynangel


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Status: offline 		True but good lord this thread and the other are outrageous in the complete lack of understanding of something that is actually very ehhmmm well  for those who know know lol and those who don't show they haven't a clue lol. You are correct though, its really not something that can be completely explained without trying to explain to someone who can't see what the color purple is.

angel

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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/9/2011 7:40:21 PM   
Cherylmazana


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Status: offline 		Starshine,

For me it’s not the fact that women were emerging and becoming independent he was satirising, it was the stupid dogma some of them were spouting he was satirising. The fact that instead of becoming strong independent women they were trying to become strong independent men. They lost who they were and then decided that this was how all women were to be.

They tried to make every woman fit their idea of what was acceptable just as much as any man has ever done, instead of setting examples they made demands. Even now their legacy lingers, women are looked upon as lesser if they choose to stay home and have children rather than go to work.

Those feminists tried to take away women’s choices under the guise of giving more.

Cheryl


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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/10/2011 2:48:12 AM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Peon

These quotes below are a few quotes from the type of radical feminists that John Norman was satirising. When you are on campus you hear the latest big movement much more than a housewife living in suburbia would.

Though I do remember some of the (what seemed to me) rubbish that was allowed to get into the general population. I remember the huge furore over the female eunuch, but even Germaine Greer the author of that book that made radical feminism almost mainstream admits now that feminism failed.

For many feminists marriage was a form of slavery for the woman, sex was rape, orgasm lead to oppression. So happy slaves begging to be raped, wanting more and more orgasms was satire.

He wanted women to be women and men to be men, he didn’t want to destroy gender identity as many feminists did, he wanted people to be proud and happy of their genders and not to destroy part of who they are to fulfil some incomprehensible belief that being proud of who you are leads to unhappiness.

The firm who published his books stopped publishing them after it had a new editor who did not like the content.

Cheryl
“The price of clinging to the enemy [a man] is your life. To enter into a relationship with a man who has divested himself as completely and publicly from the male role as much as possible would still be a risk. But to relate to a man who has done any less is suicide. . . . I, personally, have taken the position that I will not appear with any man publicly, where it could possibly be interpreted that we were friends.” Ti-Grace Atkinson, Amazon Odyssey, Links Books, 1974, pp. 90, 91

“The institution of marriage is the chief vehicle for the perpetuation of the oppression of women; it is through the role of wife that the subjugation of women is maintained. In a very real way the role of wife has been the genesis of women's rebellion throughout history.” Marlene Dixon, Why Women's Liberation? Racism and Male Supremacy

“As I see it, our revolutionary task is to destroy phallic identity in men and masochistic non-identity in women--that is, to destroy the polar realities of men and women as we now know them so that this division of human flesh into two camps--one an armed camp and the other a concentration camp--is no longer possible. Phallic identity is real and it must be destroyed. Female masochism is real and it must be destroyed.” Andrea Dworkin, Our Blood: Prophecies and Discourses On Sexual Politics - The Root Cause, Harper & Row, 1976

“The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.” The Future–If There Is One–Is Female, 1982

“When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression” Sheila Jeffrys

“I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.” Robin Morgan, Sisterhood Is Powerful: An Anthology of Writings from the Women's Liberation Movement, Vintage, 1970

“To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo.” Valerie Solanas

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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/10/2011 2:53:50 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
True but good lord this thread and the other are outrageous in the complete lack of understanding of something that is actually very ehhmmm well  for those who know know lol and those who don't show they haven't a clue lol.


Wow! I seriously didn't see, straight away, whether you're talking about Goreans trying to explain their views to those of us with mainstream views on feminism, rape and slavery etc, or vice versa.

For similar reasons I didn't understand, at first, why you were criticising Cherylmazana for continuing her discussion here, thus going against the terms of service.




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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/10/2011 3:02:00 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana


Though I do remember some of the (what seemed to me) rubbish that was allowed to get into the general population. I remember the huge furore over the female eunuch, but even Germaine Greer the author of that book that made radical feminism almost mainstream admits now that feminism failed.


Jeez, Cheryl - radical feminism has *never* been mainstream and very few indeed would say that feminism as a whole has failed. If it had, what would Norman have to rail against? I don't even know where to start with that view.

I'm sorry, but I honestly think that there's little point in pursuing this discussion. I think our worlds, or the worlds we want, are too far apart.

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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/10/2011 3:33:07 AM   
aromanholiday


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana


Though I do remember some of the (what seemed to me) rubbish that was allowed to get into the general population. I remember the huge furore over the female eunuch, but even Germaine Greer the author of that book that made radical feminism almost mainstream admits now that feminism failed.


Jeez, Cheryl - radical feminism has *never* been mainstream and very few indeed would say that feminism as a whole has failed. If it had, what would Norman have to rail against? I don't even know where to start with that view.

I'm sorry, but I honestly think that there's little point in pursuing this discussion. I think our worlds, or the worlds we want, are too far apart.


Do you find the thought that these ideas were extremely popular and well known at that time disturbing? It isn't ever a good idea to rewrite history. You learn nothing from it if you do.

It may not have been well known among some groups of people, but like any cool movement of any age radical feminism was blazingly popular, particularly among the young and those on college campuses. People were exposed to these ideas because they were surrounded by them: they got a huge amount of media play. Some lived and breathed in the atmosphere of those quotes of Cheryl's: these ideas were commonplaces; they were everywhere: not just in books but in magazines, essays, on TV, on radio talk shows and discussed in classes or in coffehouses. They were inescapable. Luckily, first-wave feminist ideas didn't stick in most women. Their realities (the loving hot fun of sex with individual men whose unique personalities had nothing in common with the patriarchal beast caricature painted by feminist) blatently contradicted these ideologies. Most women saw them as interesting ideas to turn over in one's head but having little-nothing to do with with their daily lives. There was a huge disconnect. And a few females, of course, had experienced rather deep counter conditioning in their childhoods that strongly immunized them against such thoughts. But yes, there was a time when the feminist idea that consensual sex with men was "rape" was commonly known. It wasn't believed or taken seriously by many, but it was well-known.



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RE: Gorean slave rape - 5/10/2011 3:46:56 AM   
imperatrixx


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quote:

Luckily, first-wave feminist ideas didn't stick in most women.


First-wave feminism consisted of suffragettes and people fighting for the idea that women had the right to own property and sue for divorce.

Forgive me if I don't consider your opinion on this matter to be informed.

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