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Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean perspectives


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Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean persp... - 5/15/2011 2:07:12 PM   
imperatrixx


Posts: 903
Joined: 3/29/2011
Status: offline 		(and feminism and whatever else comes up too!)

Continued from here

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Greetings imperatrixx....

quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx
You don't consider "forcibly impregnating" to be rape?


I do know where you are going with this and that is not where what I have been talking about is based. Rape, as currently legally defined is a fairly late concept. Rape as a concept probably doesn't go back among humans past the last ice age, if that far for most cultures. No, we can't know that for certain. We know sex go back to all of our mammalian roots. So, from an instinctive reproductive view, rape is not a concept. The urge to reproduce cares nothing about consent. It just wants to do it. You can define what animals do as rape. They don't have that as a concept outside of the apes (I think) and some of the higher monkeys. That is humans putting a meaning on something that does not exist otherwise.



Wow, I don't even know where to begin with this.

First of all, we're talking about humans, not animals. I'm not defining what animals do as rape, I'm talking about it in a human context.

Second of all, we have lots of concepts that animals don't have. Your sigline says "The goal is beauty" but if this were just about natural imperatives to reproduce you should change it to "The goal is fertility." Humans have sex for pleasure. So unless you're going to tell me that every time you have sex you're trying to get a girl pregnant, you might not want to base your sex life off of the animal kingdom. Either that or get ready to pay a lot of child support.

Third of all, there are quite a few things that affect human progress besides genes. Families, for one. Even if every theoretical rapist out there was trying to get his victims pregnant, is that really what's good for the species? Indiscriminate procreation? Because when I see the 'biological imperative to reproduce' I think of teen mothers, single parents, etc. Accidental pregnancies without family planning. Which is why I dispute that sex at all costs is actually beneficial to our species. If you look at the type of men who are so driven to procreate that they will have sex with any woman they see, consensual or not, can you honestly say they are the strongest members of the gene pool?

Because acting like the animal kingdom - that is, males impregnating multiple females, every time they have the desire to have sex, outside of any idea of consent - doesn't sound like human progress to me. It sounds like some back woods Jerry Springer plot.

quote:


So....yes, you can attach the concept of rape to any sexual activity. This has included consensual sex between men and women. You may do so to what I said if you want, but it is not what I was talking about. I don't believe that the concept of rape exists at the instinctive level. It is strictly a cognitive function and a variable one at that as to when and where it is applied. A simple test of that is, if YOU consider a specific sexual activity done between two people to be a case of rape and THEY do not, who is correct? It is the same act no matter who views it. Leave out legal definitions at the moment for your answer.


No, you can't attach the concept of rape to "any" sexual activity.

What I view as rape is sex without consent. If both people involved say they don't view it as rape, there's consent there. This is of course talking about forcible rape and not something like statutory rape or rape of the disabled or any other situation where the ability to consent is a grey area.

And I'm sorry but it's a bit ridiculous that you can say something like "forcibly impregnate" and then act as if you're not actually talking about forcing someone.

This is what you said:

quote:

When you think of it as part of the reproductive biological imperative, a stronger group forcibly impregnating a weaker group to perpetuate the stronger genome is perfectly natural. It is even desired if you want the species to grow better and stronger through reproductive change.

An extreme version of this has been, historically, conquering armies who have been entirely to almost entirely male doing this to the females in the newly conquered areas. They are the new alpha males and they drive off the former alphas and betas to perpetuate their genes.


If you're talking about forcibly impregnating people, and giving conquering armies as your example, that's rape. You can try to weasel around all you want about how rape doesn't exist in the animal world or whatever, but in the human world, that's what it is.



< Message edited by imperatrixx -- 5/15/2011 2:19:13 PM >
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RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/15/2011 5:19:01 PM   
Bear0fAr


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Status: offline 		And we have a winner.

Good luck to you all, folks.

Bear-

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RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/15/2011 7:18:42 PM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1584
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: online 		Greetings imperatrixx....

I am not going to cross post my reply. See it here: http://www.collarchat.com/m_3665664/mpage_7/tm.htm

Be well....

Malkinius

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http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is beauty.

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RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/15/2011 7:36:19 PM   
Rule


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I declare imperatrixx the superior being.

Malkinius, you had better change your nick.

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RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/16/2011 2:48:03 AM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		No one can say for sure they know why rape happens, if they do they are lying. Over the years I have read many books on the subject from sociologists/anthropologists, psychiatrists and the rapist themselves, every one of them has their own ideas why.

There is no link of station/class, attractiveness to women or money that links these men in common. Some are married with regular sex others are single with regular sex, and others both married and single get little or no sex. In fact some have power, money attractiveness and yet still rape.

There is not always a link of child abuse or early sexual experiences that cause it though sometimes that is seen as one of the reasons. It can be pre-planned or heat of the moment, and although a rapist usually rapes someone they know rape of strangers happens regularly.

Even men are not immune, men have been raped by both men and women though the latter is uncommon. And supposedly straight men have been known to rape homosexual men violently to “teach them a lesson”. And gang rape of both men and women while rare happens, so it is not even a solitary hidden activity it can be used as a bonding mechanism.

While rape is more common in times of turmoil such as war, it is an always present threat, and peace and laws to prevent it never do so completely.

The reasons most commonly considered as contributing factors are early sexual abuse/trauma, feelings of inadequacy, revenge, using another as a “whipping boy”, wanting to feel powerful, thwarted desire, rape as a sexual fetish and sociopathic personality.

Ok so that’s the basics covered.

My own personal theory with no scientific basis is that men have evolved to be very aggressive, after all they are constantly fighting for resources against the most prolific predator on the planet .... us.

This aggressiveness which is turned towards conquest and fight can be tied up with the sexual drive in the same way that the pain pleasure senses can be confused by a masochist. So that they get sexually thrilled by the fight and conquest. This however doesn’t cover all aspects though so I know there is much more to it than just that simplistic thinking.

Now whether  this is an innate thing due to biology, or a learned response I am not sure, desensitisation is already causing problems in our society, and constant exposure to violence can enhance violence, I suspect that it is a matter of both working together.

Then if you add in the purely biological aspects that Malkinius was talking about, natures desire to cover as wide a range of genomes as possible good or bad, so our own instinctive natures want to work against what we see as right for a healthy society, we have a total mess.

I really do wish it was as simple as saying this plus this = a rapist, because then we could try to prevent it.

Cheryl


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RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/16/2011 3:52:51 AM   
Rule


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Indeed, a very good post.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana
My own personal theory with no scientific basis is that men have evolved to be very aggressive, after all they are constantly fighting for resources against the most prolific predator on the planet .... us.

Then if you add in the purely biological aspects that Malkinius was talking about, natures desire to cover as wide a range of genomes as possible good or bad, so our own instinctive natures want to work against what we see as right for a healthy society, we have a total mess.

We are animals that are evolving into civilized beings. We are in an intermediate stage. It is as simple as that.

I do notice that in polygamous cultures - which usually arise because of the practice of circumcision - there is a reproductive advantage to rape: only those single males that rape females in such cultures will reproduce, thus the genotype that predisposes to rape will be selected for. In monogamous cultures all males have a rather equal chance of progeny and the rape genotype therefore will confer less of a reproductive advantage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana
I really do wish it was as simple as saying this plus this = a rapist, because then we could try to prevent it.

The best way to do this is to breed the rape genotype out of the gene pools. One way to do this is to end the practice of circumcision. Further it is up to the females to practice sexual selection. Also, a religion might require of rapists to have no more than one progeny.

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RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/16/2011 6:07:36 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 2351
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Status: offline 		Well that makes two really good posts in a row, Cheryl and Rule.

Cheryl I think your theory definitely has legs. My theory (which also has no scientific basis) is that aggressiveness has to be a factor, and I agree that evolution has selected men for aggression (along with other characteristics like basic physical strength) since we as a species developed our opposable thumb. As you say though "learned response" also has a role to play. I happen to think that social norms also play a role, things like the traditional incest taboo that some cultures have seem to have a beneficial effect on the gene pool for example.

I know that you don't rate wikipedia overly highly, but you might find this interesting.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivation_for_rape


Rule, is there a "rape genotype" or is it likely to be a mixture of genotypes that affect things like aggression and risk-taking?

I'm thinking that one of the challenges is that if you removed all of the characteristics that directly imply a propensity to rape isn't there a risk that you might also be affecting attributes that are necessary for other things - things that are beneficial (I'm thinking "risk-taking" in particular).


I think humans have a whole load of genes and genetic dispositions that while important 50,000 years ago, are less important today. Until I was about to use the "appendix" as an example of an organ that may have been useful to homo sapiens way back when but which has no useful function now - but it seems there's lots of research that indicates that it's still useful - but for millennia natural selection was being done on the basis of physical strength in men, and "nurturing skills" in women, because those were attributes that were most desirable for effective reproduction. So, the environment we live in has an impact on which attributes are advantageous - as times and the environment we live in have changed, other factors have become desirable and raw physical strength less important in selection.



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RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/16/2011 7:01:08 AM   
Rule


Posts: 8016
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		You pose perceptive questions, crazyml.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
Rule, is there a "rape genotype" or is it likely to be a mixture of genotypes that affect things like aggression and risk-taking?

Indeed, by genotype I refer to a varying collection of genes (or rather the alleles of these genes), each of which to some degree and probability predisposes to rape. I do not refer to a single gen when I use the word genotype.

In my model of the mind there is a demonic animal at the very bottom of the abyss of our minds: the deep subconsciousness. The genes coding for this animal part of the mind may vary, as for example evidenced in the contrast between wild and tame animals.
This demonic animal will behave like an animal.

Overlaying and partially suppressing this animal part of the mind are a thin or thick layer of 'civilization', i.e. the more 'human' parts of the mind: the conscious and subconscious parts.
Depending on the combinations and individual thicknesses of these 'human' parts of the mind the probability that a male is predisposed to be a rapist is determined. The biggest factor in the inhibition is the possession of a conscience. However, even a person with a huge conscience can be a rapist provided that other parts of the 'human' mind are weak or lacking or strong.

This is the biological, genetic basis, which of course will be modified by environment, indoctrination, education, circumstances and opportunity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
I'm thinking that one of the challenges is that if you removed all of the characteristics that directly imply a propensity to rape isn't there a risk that you might also be affecting attributes that are necessary for other things - things that are beneficial (I'm thinking "risk-taking" in particular).

Indeed, you are very right.

The demonic/animal part of our mind is the bedrock. It is what survived 65 million years of post Cretaceous mammalian evolution. Any evolutionary changes and modifications to that part of our minds can occur only very slowly, as its traits / genes are evolutionarily conserved.

Far more and more rapid progress can be made in the evolution of the 'human' parts of our minds and this has been the objective of human evolution since the (biblical) Deluge.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
Until I was about to use the "appendix" as an example of an organ that may have been useful to homo sapiens way back when but which has no useful function now - but it seems there's lots of research that indicates that it's still useful

A new theory concerning the benefit of the appendix - which is an important organ, since just about all animals have one - is that it retains good darmflora that is able to repopulate the intestines when an animal throws up and gets diarrea and in such a way loses both the infection that caused the disease and the good flora that originally inhabited the intestines. (I am seriously miffed that I did not think of this hypothesis myself for it is pure genius. I could have, but I just never gave the problem overly much attention. So my hat off to the scientists who did come up with that idea.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
for millennia natural selection was being done on the basis of physical strength in men, and "nurturing skills" in women, because those were attributes that were most desirable for effective reproduction. So, the environment we live in has an impact on which attributes are advantageous - as times and the environment we live in have changed, other factors have become desirable and raw physical strength less important in selection.

All human characteristics are still important. For example health is very important. All our characteristics in their various proportions produce a wide variety of humans, which all are best suited to particular functions in our various populations. Some are best suited to be kings or leaders, others are best suited to be artisans, wise men, slaves or peasants. Together they form a Gestalt, a functional population, whereas each category themselves is severely handicapped without the other categories.

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RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/16/2011 7:03:11 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		In current society, social skills are used more than any of our primal instincts. What of those that use deceptive methods to gain sex? Is this not a form of a breaking consent? What I mean is that many speak of consent as needing to be informed, but if someone is given misinformation, then it is seems that some of the rules of consent have been broken.

Procreation strategies adapt to the environment, so while many years ago physically forced sex may have been more prevalent, it seems that it has been replaced with using charm, and deception to aquire sex. Why is this form of procreation strategy not spoken of as often?

We like to mention human advancement, but look at many of the under developed countries/regions, and some of the primal behavior being exhibited, that has been done for thousands of years. Look to even 1st world, and advanced nations during a time of natural disaster and lawlessness, humans often revert to basic primal drives. If these primal drives were eliminated, would the species be better for it, or worse? Many knee jerk reactions will say better, but remove a structured society that can impose behavioral restrictions, and what happens then?



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RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/16/2011 8:05:06 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

In current society, social skills are used more than any of our primal instincts. What of those that use deceptive methods to gain sex? Is this not a form of a breaking consent? What I mean is that many speak of consent as needing to be informed, but if someone is given misinformation, then it is seems that some of the rules of consent have been broken.

Procreation strategies adapt to the environment, so while many years ago physically forced sex may have been more prevalent, it seems that it has been replaced with using charm, and deception to aquire sex. Why is this form of procreation strategy not spoken of as often?


V good point. I suppose, if I'm advancing my theory that as our situation changes natural selection will eventually select for other traits, I'd say that - yes, the "charming asshole" might do pretty well and as a result damage the gene pool, but I'd hope (perhaps vainly) that as the naturally selected range of traits expands beyond aggression, strength, etc to include nurturing, empathy etc the genuinely strong and empathetic types will do well - and their traits will add to the gene pool.

quote:


We like to mention human advancement, but look at many of the under developed countries/regions, and some of the primal behavior being exhibited, that has been done for thousands of years. Look to even 1st world, and advanced nations during a time of natural disaster and lawlessness, humans often revert to basic primal drives. If these primal drives were eliminated, would the species be better for it, or worse? Many knee jerk reactions will say better, but remove a structured society that can impose behavioral restrictions, and what happens then?




Oh I completely agree - if these primal drives were to be totally eliminated I think we'd end up in a horrid evolutionary dead-end - Dodos lost their ability to fly because they lived for millennia in an ecosystem that didn't demand it of them, then we rocked up and they couldn't escape. So I suppose, in my ideal world, it's not the elimination of those core traits that's desirable, but their moderation?

(If that makes any sense)




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RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/16/2011 8:57:34 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		Where I see a problem is in the desire to eliminate these traits, rather than understand them. Now I am specifically speaking of rape in the context of procreation. These behaviors need to be redirected, and if society continues, males will evolve to a different approach for procreation, as I believe we are already seeing.

One thing that many seem to pass over, is that humans are part of the animal kingdom, and will have basic primal urges and instincts. What we have that is different, is the ability to create more complex social and personal morals to control this behavior. Humans are social creatures by nature, but what is created within society may not always be best for our more natural selves. This is something that is explored in the Gor series, though Norman does use cheats, such as avoiding the effects of disease, aging, technology and global powers upon his fictional world.

Now as a survival mechanism on the female side, may be to submit to aggression, in some form, and then use superior social skills to change things after the point of aggression has occurred. This can be singular, and some form of immediate action (such as within a family unit), or on a larger scale, such as women's rights, feminism, etc.

I am trying to find the article, but it is a study of eglatarian societies, and the impact it has on female selection of males. It seemed to indicate that being a good provider, responsible or a good father did not seem to factor into selection as much as he had 100 years ago or more.

To further complicate all of this, sex being used as a control factor by a female has certain impact upon males, and can cause more primal reactions to occur. So the straight line examination of rape as a procreation strategy, seems to only further certain agendas, rather than give us good data to examine and better understand it.

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RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/16/2011 9:44:56 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Where I see a problem is in the desire to eliminate these traits, rather than understand them. Now I am specifically speaking of rape in the context of procreation. These behaviors need to be redirected, and if society continues, males will evolve to a different approach for procreation, as I believe we are already seeing.

One thing that many seem to pass over, is that humans are part of the animal kingdom, and will have basic primal urges and instincts.

I understand them quite well: losers rape.

Sure, victors do also instinctually rape and that used to benefit the species - but not in this day and age anymore. A victor who rapes in our times is by definition a loser. Instinct is what characterizes an animal. As we as a species are evolving into something far more than an animal, we do not want such animal instincts in our gene pools. A victor must prove his genetic superiority just like any other man by courting the females, not by raping them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
what is created within society may not always be best for our more natural selves.

That is too bad. The question is: Do we as a species want to be animals, or civilized human beings. Either one throws wood on the fire and be warm and lose the wood, or one can not throw wood on the fire, have the wood and be cold. Choose!

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
I am trying to find the article, but it is a study of egalitarian societies, and the impact it has on female selection of males. It seemed to indicate that being a good provider, responsible or a good father did not seem to factor into selection as much as he had 100 years ago or more.

I cannot judge that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
To further complicate all of this, sex being used as a control factor by a female has certain impact upon males, and can cause more primal reactions to occur. So the straight line examination of rape as a procreation strategy, seems to only further certain agendas, rather than give us good data to examine and better understand it.

In social Darwinism (I am rather convinced that I invented the concept in the seventies or early eighties - but perhaps others preceded me) the potential of all human behavioral characteristics is contained within the genes. People are just the vessels that genes use to procreate themselves (I did not invent that concept, but its truth is self-evident). If these vessels exhibit behavior that is either detrimental or favorable to the procreation of these genes, it will either be selected against or for. Thus, it isn't about any agenda. It is about the evolution algorithm being implacable: literally everything that individuals and societies do has repercussions for their gene pools.

< Message edited by Rule -- 5/16/2011 9:46:05 AM >

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RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/16/2011 10:17:54 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I understand them quite well: losers rape.


It depends on what game YOU think is being played.

quote:


Sure, victors do also instinctually rape and that used to benefit the species - but not in this day and age anymore. A victor who rapes in our times is by definition a loser. Instinct is what characterizes an animal. As we as a species are evolving into something far more than an animal, we do not want such animal instincts in our gene pools. A victor must prove his genetic superiority just like any other man by courting the females, not by raping them.


By what measure are you determining "loser"? From a moral perspective, in current society the behavior is unacceptable, as it indicates an inability to control primal urges. There are many things that happen that also show indications of individuals being unable to control primal urges. In fact, in today's society I have not read of very many cases of rape that the goal is procreation, so while the act is the same, the two are different.

By what determination do you make the ascertion that one must court a female to win? What defines courting? By which societal standards, and from which culture do we then determine the appropriate, and inappropriate means of courting? If we are speaking of humans as an entire species, then which social standards should be used?

quote:


That is too bad. The question is: Do we as a species want to be animals, or civilized human beings. Either one throws wood on the fire and be warm and lose the wood, or one can not throw wood on the fire, have the wood and be cold. Choose!


Do we want to be animals? That is not a question. We are animals, with higher functioning abilities, which allows us to create morals. Just because we have the higher functioning does not remove us magically from the animal kingdom.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
I am trying to find the article, but it is a study of egalitarian societies, and the impact it has on female selection of males. It seemed to indicate that being a good provider, responsible or a good father did not seem to factor into selection as much as he had 100 years ago or more.

I cannot judge that.


Why can you not judge that? You seem to have judged much in your post. Why stop at this statement? What is it that has caused you to pause?

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
To further complicate all of this, sex being used as a control factor by a female has certain impact upon males, and can cause more primal reactions to occur. So the straight line examination of rape as a procreation strategy, seems to only further certain agendas, rather than give us good data to examine and better understand it.

In social Darwinism (I am rather convinced that I invented the concept in the seventies or early eighties - but perhaps others preceded me) the potential of all human behavioral characteristics is contained within the genes. People are just the vessels that genes use to procreate themselves (I did not invent that concept, but its truth is self-evident). If these vessels exhibit behavior that is either detrimental or favorable to the procreation of these genes, it will either be selected against or for. Thus, it isn't about any agenda. It is about the evolution algorithm being implacable: literally everything that individuals and societies do has repercussions for their gene pools.


Oh right, you are a self proclaimed supra-genius, that knows certain dieties on a first name basis, and have a direct connection to the divine. (these are statements you have made yourself, and not statements created by me)

I am very familiar with evolution, and the selection process. You still did not seem to involve yourself in any of the issues I raised, other than create tangents that are irrelevant.

Humans are animals, whether we use a computer and finance to exhibit those things, or with our bare hands. Understanding and education on it, will lead to a better understanding of ourselves. That understanding will lead to better self control, because as is shown throughout history, society cannot truly do anything to an individual other than imprison them. Only we can do something to change ourselves, if we wish.

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RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/16/2011 10:28:19 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Why can you not judge that? You seem to have judged much in your post. Why stop at this statement? What is it that has caused you to pause?

I cannot comment on an article that I have not read. Even if I had read it, I might still lack sufficient information to comment on it. One warm day does not a summer make. I cannot judge that which I do not know.

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RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/16/2011 3:13:43 PM   
Koa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
I do notice that in polygamous cultures - which usually arise because of the practice of circumcision -

I just want to make sure I understand your post. Are you saying that circumcision is why, or a reason as to why, men rape? If so, please expand on this a bit. Every man in my family is circumcised and none of them have raped anyone.
quote:

there is a reproductive advantage to rape: only those single males that rape females in such cultures will reproduce, thus the genotype that predisposes to rape will be selected for. In monogamous cultures all males have a rather equal chance of progeny and the rape genotype therefore will confer less of a reproductive advantage.

This not necessarily true either, in major countries like the U.S., Canada, Britain... have birth control and abortion clinics not to mention sex in general does not guaranty birth. I do see over time, and playing the number game it would eventually produce offspring. I don't think this a major contributor to the act of rape.


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RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/16/2011 4:37:31 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Koa
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
I do notice that in polygamous cultures - which usually arise because of the practice of circumcision -

I just want to make sure I understand your post. Are you saying that circumcision is why, or a reason as to why, men rape?

I refer you to my post 8. The frequency of the rape genotypes in our gene pools can be influenced by many factors. According to my theories over the generations in circumcising populations this frequency will increase until an equilibrium is achieved. (Many alleles / genotypes are in some kind of equilibrium.) Circumcision in my theories is a very strong factor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Koa
Every man in my family is circumcised

That is unfortunate as circumcision appears to protect to some degree against sexually transmitted diseases. Consequently such men have a reproductive advantage, which causes the practice of circumcision to spread through the population. That means that men who cannot control their animal sex urges are not removed from the population and for them to have a reproductive advantage, causing their descendants to rut like animals - increasing the likelihood of rape. Too such a population will not evolve a natural resistance against sexually transmitted diseases, and as a result when such a disease does strike, it will devastate a large number of the population. This in turn forces the population to adopt even more severe protective measures against sexually transmitted diseases: females - despite being sexually highly active due to the increased rut rate - are not allowed to be promiscuous, and if they are they will be murdered, establishing a sharia-like reign of terror. Analogously homosexual people will be persecuted for the same reason, as the very promiscuous homosexual contacts are a major highway for sexually transmitted diseases to spread through the population. Because deleterious mutations occur in each generation and females are no longer able to be adulterous, and therefore no longer can practice sexual selection by falling in love with the males with the least deleterious mutations, these deleterious mutations will accumulate in the population - again until an equilibrium is achieved. The only way then for females (and for the population) to avoid some of the deleterious alleles is for polygamy to develop: several females marrying the same least affected male. This in turn causes social instability. Among unmarried men only those will reproduce who rape. Also, a polygamous culture confers reproductive advantage onto men that have no conscience, i.e. evil men who because of their wealth can marry more than one wife. For lack of mates families are forced to have their females marry male relatives. Also to eliminate a fair number of deleterious lethal mutations inbreeding becomes obligatory every couple of generations.

So the end result is a cauldron of this soup: men that rut like animals, men that have no conscience, single men without a mate. Yes, that is a recipe for rape - and for an increased number of what I call pseudo-homosexuals who will hump anything with a hole.

Incidentally, the resulting inbreeding also confers one positive genetic benefit, to wit: the stabilization of recessive mutations that else might be lost - but the purpose that I have discerned for that was already achieved centuries before the birth of Jesus.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Koa
and none of them have raped anyone.

That is fortunate. May your population continue to have such good fortune in centuries to come.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Koa
This not necessarily true either, in major countries like the U.S., Canada, Britain... have birth control and abortion clinics not to mention sex in general does not guaranty birth. I do see over time, and playing the number game it would eventually produce offspring. I don't think this a major contributor to the act of rape.

It is a matter of increased frequency of the rape genotypes. It is an accumulative and exponential process that increases with each generation until an equilibrium is achieved.

Abortion clinics are of recent times and they are not prevalent in all countries. In any case it does not matter much. It does is a numbers game indeed and it does not matter whether the curve is steep or shallow: in the end an equilibrium will be achieved - and it will be higher, I predict, than in non-circumcising populations.

(in reply to Koa)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/16/2011 5:56:52 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Could you suggest a place to read about circumcision and the effects it has on rape frequency? You did say you do not comment on things you are not educated about.

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/16/2011 6:18:47 PM   
Rule


Posts: 8016
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
You did say you do not comment on things you are not educated about.

I have said no such thing.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/16/2011 7:24:14 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		I suppose to "know" something is different than being educated about it. You made an ascertion that circumcision influences the frequency of rape. What researchable information do you have that supports this? Is this just a theory of yours based upon bias maybe?

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Sex, Biology, Human and Animal Nature from Gorean p... - 5/16/2011 7:31:01 PM   
Rule


Posts: 8016
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		It is the result of application of the evolution algorithm. If you want to know more about that, then my advice is to study biology if you have the aptitude for it. I doubt that you can comprehend the simple mechanism that I have described even then, though. The best thing that you can do is to consult a natural slave (not a submissive) about the issue and to accept her or his judgment.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 20
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