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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:39:15 AM

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quote:

I see Rich's point. Being given something has no value. He is right

Some of my most valued things were given to me by people I valued....*scratches head at the paradox*

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:39:40 AM

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for over 20 years I have suspected that western culture has needed to move purely FREE eduction (no-one gets paid, on-one gets renumberation (sp?)). While at the same time every one gets to learn what they feel they need too, at the pace they can take information in.

... Which brings me to a quite serious question by in of itself: Does anyone know Microsoft's Visual Basic 2010 well enough to help me learn it between now and October?

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN USA

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:40:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Nothing... absolutely nothing is "free" -- somebody always pays for it. What many fail to understand is, at some point, that "somebody" runs out of money. Citizens are afforded the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". Thus, what you do with said "right" is up to you. Nobody (including the taxpayers) owes anyone anything... period! If someone is too stupid (or lazy) to figure out how to get an education, then they're clearly not smart enough to be a doctor, or engineer, or whatever. I'm happy to help the helpless... not the stupid or lazy.

So those who aspire to higher education in any field but may not have the financial means to do so are either stupid or lazy?

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:40:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Paying for it creates far more incentive to be prepared than knowing youre going to be sitting across the aisle from someone who shouldn't have graduated high school much less be in college for free.

You see, here is the mistake you are making... the ones that work the hardest didn't pay for it, they worked for it. In other words, those who had scholarships, grants that were dependent on a good GPA... these were the best students. I know this because I didn't pay for college, and I have a gpa in the top 3%.

Now, the students that tend to fuck off the most were the ones that had parents who paid for it. Yes, their education was paid for... but they were killing time until their real life started. These were invariably the students that came to me a few days before finals desperately trying to pull a D or an F into a C-... "can you help me by editing this paper?", (meaning rewrite it for them), "Can you help me pass this test" (which meant tell them what was probably going to be on it and using my notes)....

The kids that work at a job, get loans to pay tuition, etc etc etc, these are the ones that are getting fucked by the system. They do not have a mommy or a daddy to pay their way. They have to work (which takes time away from classes), or they take a bazillion units so they can try to graduate early and take less debt on (which makes their grades suffer). This set is trying to get out of school early, where as the kids who have parents who pay are trying to stretch it out.

If all of these kids were competing academically, the kids with the parents who pay wouldn't be taking the place of those who are actually working to get somewhere. It wouldn't have impacted my education, as I got one based on merit.... how many students could have merited it if they could focus more on learning instead of when their next shift at Starbucks starts.

Having worked my butt of next to uni and experienced the ignorance from certain employment based students when at times I had to skip a lesson when I had to prioritise to earn the money, I can truly second that

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:41:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

An educated population would be more productive.

Assuming we think learning the importance of hard work, individual responsibility, creative problem solving, and personal sacrifice, are irrelevant to becoming educated.

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:41:50 AM

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Have you heard of Free University in San Francisco? I have a couple of friends involved with it. I wanted to go in February, but I had other obligations. World renowned authors, political thinkers, etc etc etc... teaching people for free....

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:45:13 AM

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quote:

Having worked my butt of next to uni and experienced the ignorance from certain employment based students when at times I had to skip a lesson when I had to prioritise to earn the money, I can truly second that

Some of the undergrads I mentored had this problem. Good students who worked hard, had something to offer the class, but needed to work. These were the kids that could not go to professional conferences, field schools, or take part in out of class events that would have helped them network. I think it is a shame.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:45:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Have you heard of Free University in San Francisco? I have a couple of friends involved with it. I wanted to go in February, but I had other obligations. World renowned authors, political thinkers, etc etc etc... teaching people for free....

An interesting place for discussion and exchange of ideas. "University" it isnt.

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and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:46:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think college should be free, period. It would create a certain amount of competition for available seats in the classrooms, but that would encourage students to be more academically competitive for those seats.

Paying for it creates far more incentive to be prepared than knowing youre going to be sitting across the aisle from someone who shouldn't have graduated high school much less be in college for free.

When its mommy or daddy paying for it, is there more incentive than someone who cant afford it and earns their place through grades and hard work?

Theres plenty of money available for those who cant afford it and earn their place through grades and hard work.

You obviously do not know much about the medical field.

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:48:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

I see Rich's point. Being given something has no value. He is right

Some of my most valued things were given to me by people I valued....*scratches head at the paradox*

The things had value because of who gave them to you. If someone just ups and gives you a college degree, and you didnt have to work for it, what value would be placed on that?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:51:47 AM

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quote:

The things had value because of who gave them to you. If someone just ups and gives you a college degree, and you didnt have to work for it, what value would be placed on that?

By its very nature a degree is something you have to "work" for. Of course, some people work harder than others because the work comes easy to them, but they still have to do the work to get the degree.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:58:49 AM

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Not sure how that applies. Education only lays the foundation, by doing two things 1) Learning how to learn advance topics 2) Giving the basic knowledge of a field you can now apply yourself to expand in.

Having education available as a choice does not preclude any of the things you list, but your response makes it appear as if it does.

As an example, my son qualified for one of the Performance Learning Centers funded by the organization Bill Gates contributes to. In regular high school he was just average. Put into an environment where he was able to go at his own pace, he graduated early and with honors. It was free, but it did not effect how he approached it.

Those that do not want to work hard will not take advantage of freed higher education, or they will wash out. It is as simple as that. Free education does not equate to a hand-out degree.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

An educated population would be more productive.

Assuming we think learning the importance of hard work, individual responsibility, creative problem solving, and personal sacrifice, are irrelevant to becoming educated.

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 11:02:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Those that do not want to work hard will not take advantage of free higher education, or they will wash out. It is as simple as that. Free education does not equate to a hand-out degree.

Well said.

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 11:04:08 AM

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quote:

If someone is too stupid (or lazy) to figure out how to get an education, then they're clearly not smart enough to be a doctor, or engineer, or whatever.

Does anyone truly have an understanding of the process for getting into a school?

I could give you what I had to go through to get into nursing. It wasnt just as simple as.. here are my grades. By that time, it had become so competitive, they wanted to know what other college cources I had taken. Extra points on the interview process. And, yes, they do tally points during that process. Any other degrees to prove I was a good student? More extra points. Was there a legacy... more points. The interview presence itself.. more points. Financing, how you are going to pay for it... more points. Previous training in medicine... more points. Placement test, more points.

I busted the scale on all of those. Did that mean I was the most qualified? Nope. I had the grades, I had the financing, I had the legacy (my mother graduated from the same program), I had a BS degree prior to enrolling, I interviewed well wisnce I already knew the Dean of Nursing, and I did well on the placement test. All those points and not many had much to do with wether I could pass the actual program or not. Three LPN's I knew were trying to get in the same year I got in.. and they didnt.

This has nothing to do with being too lazy to try. Competition for scholarships are fierce. Competition for limited seats are fierce.

quote:

Huge medical school debts — doctors now graduate owing more than $155,000 on average, and 86 percent have some debt — are why so many doctors shun primary care in favor of highly paid specialties, where there are incentives to give expensive treatments and order expensive tests, an important driver of rising health care costs.

We estimate that we can make medical school free for roughly $2.5 billion per year — about one-thousandth of what we spend on health care in the United States each year. What’s more, we can offset most if not all of the cost of medical school without the government’s help by charging doctors for specialty training.

Would you be surprised to learn that Drs earn stipends during their training... up to 50,000 a year?

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 5/29/2011 11:08:34 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 11:07:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

The things had value because of who gave them to you. If someone just ups and gives you a college degree, and you didnt have to work for it, what value would be placed on that?

By its very nature a degree is something you have to "work" for. Of course, some people work harder than others because the work comes easy to them, but they still have to do the work to get the degree.

Julia, I said I saw his point... I didnt say I agreed with him. An education is work.. its not something you are given for free.

quote:

I see Rich's point. Being given something has no value. He is right. The value to this education is the grades... you still have to pass... is the clinicals... there is no way to fake knowledge in medicine. When was the last time anyone went to a new Dr and asked what their GPA was, or in what percentage of their class did they graduate?

You decided to snip what you saw as relevant instead of reading it as a whole.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 11:09:09 AM

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ulia, I said I saw his point... I didnt say I agreed with him. An education is work.. its not something you are given for free.

I have had to take student loans out for living expenses because I have to live, but my education has been FREE. Of course I had to merit it, but it came fairly easy to me. I did not have to sweat much for it, but this does not mean I do not value it...There is nothing I have valued more.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 11:10:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Nothing... absolutely nothing is "free" -- somebody always pays for it. What many fail to understand is, at some point, that "somebody" runs out of money. Citizens are afforded the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". Thus, what you do with said "right" is up to you. Nobody (including the taxpayers) owes anyone anything... period! If someone is too stupid (or lazy) to figure out how to get an education, then they're clearly not smart enough to be a doctor, or engineer, or whatever. I'm happy to help the helpless... not the stupid or lazy.

So those who aspire to higher education in any field but may not have the financial means to do so are either stupid or lazy?

Too stupid to get a student loan... too lazy to work to contribute to their own education -- yes, both stupid and lazy.

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 11:13:04 AM

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quote:

Too stupid to get a student loan... too lazy to work to contribute to their own education -- yes, both stupid and lazy.

You got studies on that? You have no knowledge that these people are stupid or lazy. But you are leading me to believe you may be.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 11:15:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ulia, I said I saw his point... I didnt say I agreed with him. An education is work.. its not something you are given for free.

I have had to take student loans out for living expenses because I have to live, but my education has been FREE. Of course I had to merit it, but it came fairly easy to me. I did not have to sweat much for it, but this does not mean I do not value it...There is nothing I have valued more.

If you had to take out loans to get it, it wasn't free.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 11:15:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

All those points and not many had much to do with wether I could pass the actual program or not.

If you don't "pass the actual program", then that's your failing, is it not?!! Maybe I've misunderstood the above statement, but it appears as if you not only want FREE education, but a FREE pass as well?!! But again... maybe I've misunderstood the above comment?!!

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