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RE: John Carter - 1/10/2012 2:59:20 PM   
Arturas


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There is an interesting article on John Norman's Chronicles of Gor website that seems to draw some convincing comparisons between the two series, the Mars series being the first written. The article is by Chronciles ranking staff member "Luther" and is dated December 7, 2007 and entitled "The influence of the John Carter of Mars series by Edgar Rice Burroughs on the creation of Gor".. I will not quote the article in total but will list the book titles as Luther does in launching his comparison and only quote a couple of Luther's conclusions to whet your appetite to research this on that wonderful website yourself.

In the article Luther lists many convincing comparisons about the John Carter world and Gor and these include a long list of what he says are similarities in the characters and relationships contained therein. Luther also does state the title comparisons only "strike the surface" and the Gor series when compared to the Mars series "fits this template perfectly".


1. A Princess of Mars

2. The Gods of Mars

3. The Warlord of Mars

4. Thuvia, Maid of Mars

5. The Chessmen of Mars

6. The Master Mind of Mars

7. A Fighting Man of Mars

8. Swords of Mars

9. Synthetic Men of Mars

10. Llana of Gathol

11. John Carter of Mars


Live well,
- Arturas

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When her will bends to yours she will blossom like a flower under the warm spring rain and bright radiant morning star. She will surrender her all to you and lay in your arms thankful to join her soul with yours, her Master.

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RE: John Carter - 1/10/2012 5:33:41 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinnardin

I could, of course, go onto Wiki right now, and post that Lange said that his main influence was Pirates of the Caribbean....and it would show up, for a little while at least.
My personal theory has always been that he dropped acid one day, and watched the old (well, now old, then not so much) British TV series Land of the Giants...and used much of that for his model for Gor (if grown men were only 3 inches tall, then kittens would be Larls , pigeons would be Tarns...and Praying Mantises would be Priest Kings).

John, AKA Dinnardin 
NOW I get it.




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RE: John Carter - 1/22/2012 3:41:48 PM   
Hiskajirah


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Greetings Master

That was just way too funny!

(at least to me)

Wishing you most well,
~twinkle

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RE: John Carter - 1/27/2012 10:54:41 AM   
JarlOlaf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I saw the trailer as well. Looks like the typical B adventure film, nothing particularly Gorean about it...the main character has essentially super powers.

Now, I also saw a poster for Tim Burton's forthcoming "Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter." I'm far more curious about that!

[
You mean us mighty Gorean Masterly types don't have super powers??? WTF?
Guess I gotta take off my cape and park the Olafmobile.... Bummer, because I made it look so good....

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RE: John Carter - 1/29/2012 7:54:27 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

There is an interesting article on John Norman's Chronicles of Gor website that seems to draw some convincing comparisons between the two series, the Mars series being the first written. The article is by Chronciles ranking staff member "Luther" and is dated December 7, 2007 and entitled "The influence of the John Carter of Mars series by Edgar Rice Burroughs on the creation of Gor".. I will not quote the article in total but will list the book titles as Luther does in launching his comparison and only quote a couple of Luther's conclusions to whet your appetite to research this on that wonderful website yourself.

In the article Luther lists many convincing comparisons about the John Carter world and Gor and these include a long list of what he says are similarities in the characters and relationships contained therein. Luther also does state the title comparisons only "strike the surface" and the Gor series when compared to the Mars series "fits this template perfectly".

1. A Princess of Mars

2. The Gods of Mars


I couldn't find that article on http://gorchronicles.com/modules/wfchannel/ but did find that minimally the first two Mars books are available for free for Kindle on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/A-Princess-of-Mars-ebook/dp/B002RKSDS2/

http://www.amazon.com/The-Gods-of-Mars-ebook/dp/B002RKSDRI/

(in reply to Arturas)
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RE: John Carter - 1/31/2012 7:08:37 AM   
Arturas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

There is an interesting article on John Norman's Chronicles of Gor website that seems to draw some convincing comparisons between the two series, the Mars series being the first written. The article is by Chronciles ranking staff member "Luther" and is dated December 7, 2007 and entitled "The influence of the John Carter of Mars series by Edgar Rice Burroughs on the creation of Gor".. I will not quote the article in total but will list the book titles as Luther does in launching his comparison and only quote a couple of Luther's conclusions to whet your appetite to research this on that wonderful website yourself.

In the article Luther lists many convincing comparisons about the John Carter world and Gor and these include a long list of what he says are similarities in the characters and relationships contained therein. Luther also does state the title comparisons only "strike the surface" and the Gor series when compared to the Mars series "fits this template perfectly".

1. A Princess of Mars

2. The Gods of Mars


I couldn't find that article on http://gorchronicles.com/modules/wfchannel/ but did find that minimally the first two Mars books are available for free for Kindle on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/A-Princess-of-Mars-ebook/dp/B002RKSDS2/

http://www.amazon.com/The-Gods-of-Mars-ebook/dp/B002RKSDRI/



Go into "articles" from the Main Menu box. Go to the upper right hand corner in the Search box. Type "Carter".

Articles
Nucleus 1970 Yearbook (1971)
Simon_of_Tabor (2011/4/9 16:20:00)
Polygraff Magazine (2010)
Simon_of_Tabor (2010/10/15 0:50:00)
Recommended Books for Further Research
Luther (2007/3/4 12:40:00)
John Carter of Mars
Luther (2006/12/7 13:10:00)


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RE: John Carter - 1/31/2012 1:28:30 PM   
joanneeve


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Greetings Mr. Arturas,

Although the work of Master Luthar is very well written, it is however not how Mr. John Norman sees his work. He clearly states in a number of interviews that he sees the works of his fellow author Mr. Edgar Rice Burroughs and himself as being different.

[19] Your books are sometimes compared to other works like Edgar Rice Burroughs' John Carter Warlord of Mars novels. What is your take on all of this?

I think Edgar Rice Burroughs is a wonderful writer, and certainly the possessor of one of the great imaginations of all time. His position in the history of science fiction is unique, secure, and well-deserved. That being the case, it is obviously flattering, if dubious, to have my work compared to his, or his to mine. Certainly we both have in common a love for adventure fantasy, a love for human beings, and a willingness to feel deeply, and celebrate simple, important things, such as courage, wonder, and determination. The world is often disappointing, hostile, dark, mean, shallow, pointless, and boring, and into such a world fantasy sometimes bears its redemptive, joyful torch, lighting a way to better things and deeper understandings. It can remind us of what we are, and can become, and that there exist such things as meaning and nobility. It is not apart from the real world, removed from it, but, like the imagination itself, a part of the real world. It makes the world better. Edgar Rice Burroughs bore that torch well. I, and millions of others, thank him, and celebrate him.

This much said, I think that my work and that of the great Mr. Burroughs, whom I greatly esteem, are quite different. The easiest way to see the difference is to read both.

*Quote taken from the interview doe with Polygraff and found at the following link: http://gorchronicles.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=83 *

And the next quote is taken from another interview and here he goes into further depth and detail as to who influenced his writing.

How were you influenced by authors like Edgar Rice Burroughs and Robert E. Howard? And how did you feel like your works were able to expand on these influences? What inspired you, in particular, about these types of heroic narratives?

I think, pretty clearly, the three major influences on my work are Homer, Freud, and Nietzsche. Interestingly, however obvious this influence might be, few, if any, critics, commentators, or such, have called attention to it. Perhaps it is so obvious that it is simply taken for granted. In Homer you have the primitive, hardy, aristocratic warrior ethos; in Nietzsche you have the rank, distance, and hierarchy, concern with the etiology of belief, the trenchant culture criticism, and such; and, in Freud, of course, you have the depth psychology, and a sense of the radical centrality of sex to the human condition.

As a boy, as I recall, I read some of the Tarzan books. If I was influenced by them, I shall hope it was benignly. Certainly I have an affection for Edgar Rice Burroughs, and his work. I think he was a wonderful man, and had one of the great imaginations with which our species has been blessed. As mentioned, too, I was not familiar with his other work, or at least I think not, until I was an adult, fully employed, teaching, in a college, and such. I think I was doing research at Berkeley, on a fellowship, or such, when the Burroughs "explosion" took place, and a number of his works, the copyrights supposedly having expired, struck the paperback market. I think, as it turned out, the copyrights had actually been renewed on the original magazine publications of some of the work, which presented, as I recall, some touchy legal concerns. As I recall, I was particularly impressed with several of his series, and, doubtless, in particular, with the Martian series. Given my earlier reading in Planet Stories, and such, you can see how that might be. As before, if I have been influenced by Burroughs, I shall hope that the influence has been benign, and has redounded to the benefit of a wonderful genre of literature.

Two remarks are probably in order now. First, Burroughs, I would suppose, had his own influences, which is natural and to be expected, and, certainly, did not invent the genre in which he reveled, and which he did so much to distinguish, nor, obviously, does he own it. Adventure fantasy does not belong to any particular human being, unless perhaps to the author, or authors, of the Gilgamesh epic, and his, or their, copyright would presumably have expired by now. Second, one may simply read Burroughs, and read my work. It seems very clear to me, and to most people, that the two corpuses, for better or for worse, are considerably different. The test is simple. Go, read. I have read some Robert E. Howard, as I recall. And, once again, if there is any influence there, I would hope it would turn out to be benign. Writing springs out of a human life, and a vision of the world, and there are thousands of influences, over the years, which contribute to the nature of any given individual, whether a writer or not. All in all, it would be very difficult for a writer to comment illuminatingly on this sort of thing.

There is at least one thing here I would like to credit to Mr. Burroughs, and that has little to do with what he did, but more with how he did it. He, in an era of snobbery, style, pomposity, arrogant sophistication, and such, had the courage to deal honestly and directly, boldly, movingly, straightforwardly, with simple, primitive feelings and emotions. To put it disparagingly, he had the "courage to be corny," or to put it less disparagingly, and as I would rather put it, he had the "courage to write with spirit and heart, without apology, letting the chips fall where they might." Did he not touch the hero and the heroine, the warrior and the princess, the scribe and the poet, in us all? He seems to have occasionally felt diffident about the quality of his own work. He is entitled to his views, of course, but I find that a bit sad. He will be read generation after generation, after generation, while one crop after another of the witty and disdainful, the shallow and clever, the polished and sophisticated, the celebrated winners of prizes, and such, comes and goes. People feel, life feels. He felt. We are grateful, and feel, too.

Here is the link to the full iterview: http://io9.com/5783833/john-norman-the-philosopher-who-created-the-barbaric-world-of-gor

I mean no disrespect to Master Luthar, but he himself has also said, his works are based on his views of the Gorean philosophies and that he does not speak for Mr. John Norman.

I wish you well,

joanneeve{C}

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RE: John Carter - 1/31/2012 3:13:45 PM   
Arturas


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quote:

As I recall, I was particularly impressed with several of his series, and, doubtless, in particular, with the Martian series. Given my earlier reading in Planet Stories, and such, you can see how that might be. As before, if I have been influenced by Burroughs, I shall hope that the influence has been benign, and has redounded to the benefit of a wonderful genre of literature


I actually have no opinion on the question and I have not read any of the Mars series. Norman challenges one to read both series and certainly that makes sense. Luther points out similarities he found after reading both series and I respect his effort. I also respect your posting on the subject. You did a great job presenting the author's response but I am more interested in your opinion, do you have one on this question?

Well wishes,
Mr. Arthur


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When her will bends to yours she will blossom like a flower under the warm spring rain and bright radiant morning star. She will surrender her all to you and lay in your arms thankful to join her soul with yours, her Master.

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RE: John Carter - 2/21/2012 9:08:01 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Second, one may simply read Burroughs, and read my work.


I've started "A Princess of Mars" and "Tarnsman of Gor" and do find them very similar in narrative tone.

quote:

Go into "articles" from the Main Menu box. Go to the upper right hand corner in the Search box. Type "Carter".


I found the article...one needs to register, and despite doing this (twice) I am unable to access it.

I did find this:

Barsoom & Gor

1. The sword is the weapon of choice on Mars as it is on Gor though a longsword is more prevalent on Mars rather than the short sword of Gor.

2. John Carter, the primary hero of the Mars series, is a superb swordsman like Tarl Cabot.

3. John Carter weds Dejah Thoris, a Martian princess who is the daughter of the ruler of the greatest city on Mars. She is similar to Talena, daughter of Marlenus, and Tarl does join with her in Tarnsman of Gor.

4. A jeddak is an emperor of a Mars city, similar in some ways to a Ubar. A jeddara is the consort of a jeddak, like a Ubara.

5. At the end of the first Mars book, A Princess of Mars, John Carter returns against his will to Earth. This is similar to Tarl returning to Earth at the end of Tarnsman of Gor.

6. In the second Mars book, The Gods of Mars, John Carter returns to Mars and journeys to the forbidden lands of the gods of Mars, seeking Dejah Thoris. Tarl Cabot returns to Gor in Outlaw of Gor and he eventually journeys to the Sardar, the Sacred Place of the Priest-Kings of Gor, partially out of his need to learn the fate of Talena. Like Carter, Cabot does confront the "gods" of their respective planets.

7. The religion of Mars is common across much of the planet, as is the worship of the Priest-Kings on Gor. The "gods" of Mars inhabit an isolated valley surrounded by mountains. Men sometimes journey there when they wish to die. No one has ever returned alive from this valley. This is similar to the Sardar Mountains of the Priest-Kings.

8. Mars contains an Atmosphere Plant that produces the breathable air that permits the world to sustain life. In A Princess of Mars, the Plant is sabotaged and the world nearly perishes. This is similar to the Power Plant of the Priest-Kings that Sarm sabotages and which nearly destroys Gor.

9. The gravity of Mars is lesser than the Earth, as it is on Gor. This does give an advantage to the earthmen, Carter and Cabot, who journey to those worlds.

10. Mars has many walled cities, like the cities of Gor.

11. Helium is the greatest city on Mars. It is a circular, walled city with two lofty towers that are nearly a mile tall. Compare that to Ar of Gor, a walled city with many tall Cylinders, though not quite a mile tall.

12. The technology level of Mars varies and in certain fields, like medicine and architecture they are quite advanced, just like on Gor. Unlike Gor, Mars does have firearms.

13. Mars generally has a single language, spoken by most of the inhabitants of the world. On Gor, they too have a single language that is common across much of the world.

14. The men of Mars have a natural longevity, a life-span of about one thousand years. Goreans have the Stabilization Serums, giving them longevity as well.

15. The men of Mars hold tradition in high esteem, just like Goreans.

16. Slavery exists on Mars, of both men and women though the institution of slavery is far harsher on Gor.

17. Assassins exist on Mars and they are organized into a guild with its own laws and code of conduct, similar to the Assassins on Gor.

18. Animals on Mars are often multi-legged, possessing from six to ten legs. Compare that to the six-legged creatures of Gor such as the sleen.

19. Mars has a chess-like game called jetan. It is played on a hundred-squared board just like the Gorean Kaissa. Complete rules for jetan do exist in the Mars books.

20. If we examine some of the names of people, creatures, places and such within the Mars books, we will see some similar words and styles to words within the Gor novels. Some of the words from the Mars series include: Dar Tarus, U-Gor, Gor-don, Gorgum, Gor Hajus, Than Kosis, Tal, Tor-dur-bar, Tur, Ur Jan, Zad.

21. One of the plot devices used within the Mars series was paint and pills that bestowed the power of invisibility, like the Kurii ring of the Gor series.

22. The Black Pirates of Mars were raiders who kidnapped women to enslave them, similar to the League of Black Slavers on Gor.

23. All the men of Mars are considered warriors, no matter what else their profession. This is similar to the barbaric cultures outside of the Gorean cities. In those cultures, all of the men must be warriors first.

24. There are codes of combat on Mars, similar in some respects to the Warrior Caste Codes of Gor.

25. Women on Mars are almost never warriors. There are only a couple of limited exceptions, a similar idea to that of Gor.

26. Part of the premise of the Mars books is that John Carter wrote the manuscripts of the books and delivered it to an earthman to publish for him, just like Tarl Cabot did.


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RE: John Carter - 2/22/2012 5:19:37 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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I want to see John Carter, just 'cause it looks fun, but I wasn't aware of these similarities. Interesting stuff.

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RE: John Carter - 2/24/2012 4:28:34 AM   
FrankAr


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FR....

In Aussie land it opens march 8th



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RE: John Carter - 2/24/2012 2:48:38 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

kalikshama said:
I did find this:

I've read quite a bit of both series actually. Yes, on some surface levels... namely that of being "adventure fantasy" they seem similar. But then again I might say that of pretty much any other "go get sword, slay dragon, rescue/fuck damsel" series of books. I personally find many of the similarities listed in that article specious at best. Consider:

#1 & #2: Sword as weapon of choice: Go figure. The up close and personal nature of a sword is ALWAYS going to make it seem more heroic than.... say... pushing a button on your drone keypad and smiting your enemy from the other side of the planet. In addition, given the time of the writing, swords would've been nostalgic... heck, they still are.

#3 They both married a princess: Gee, I can't quite shake the feeling I've read that plot line elsewhere too.

#4 They both have names for a ruler and consort: seriously?

#5 They both go back to earth for a bit. OK, I'll give a "similarity point" for that one.

The rest of them go much like the previous. The only thing I didn't see is "in both series, humans generally come equipped with 2 arms and 2 legs".

That all being said I'll be missing the movie. I'm not feeding the IP trolls any more.

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RE: John Carter - 3/7/2012 6:20:22 PM   
juliadryad


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here's to you , Dejah Thoris.
i think i'm going to enjoy John Carter, somehow.

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RE: John Carter - 3/8/2012 10:01:30 AM   
LillyBoPeep


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IP trolls?

I still plan to see it. Then maybe I'll read some of both. :p

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RE: John Carter - 3/8/2012 8:03:31 PM   
Koa


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I will most likely watch it tonight at the midnight showing. Ill let you all know how it went.

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RE: John Carter - 3/9/2012 8:29:44 AM   
Arturas


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If it does me good in my nobel cause then it ain't too shoddy.

- Arturas

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RE: John Carter - 3/9/2012 9:51:38 AM   
Musicmystery


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In which category do you hope to win the Nobel?

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RE: John Carter - 3/9/2012 11:33:10 AM   
Dinnardin


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It is the special Nobels...he is up in the Extreme Mental Retardation, Mega-Stupidity, and Unlimitedly Wrong categories...he might pull off the trifecta!

John, AKA Dinnardin

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RE: John Carter - 3/9/2012 3:32:46 PM   
Arturas


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These slave's rebel with words but carry little in their quiver, they live in fantasy and live for the same, they enjoy popcorn but are afraid to add extra butter, for they are slaves.

- Arturas

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When her will bends to yours she will blossom like a flower under the warm spring rain and bright radiant morning star. She will surrender her all to you and lay in your arms thankful to join her soul with yours, her Master.

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RE: John Carter - 3/9/2012 4:33:55 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

These slave's rebel with words but carry little in their quiver, they live in fantasy and live for the same, they enjoy popcorn but are afraid to add extra butter, for they are slaves.

- Arturas

Wouldn't your post above be an example of that?

K.

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