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RE: Measuring up. - 8/14/2011 8:33:22 PM   
LanceHughes


Posts: 4093
Joined: 2/12/2004
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Syrox
Assumption is a terrible thing...

most of where that opinion is drawn from is actually my local munches, where doms regularly gather to tell tails of who made the reddest ass and with what implement.

<snipped>

Fair enough.  I can see where that opinion derives from.  And thanks for being so clear.

BUT, the other part of the sentence still bothers me.  In other words I'm still curious as to why you think that "the whole BDSM aspect of it ...[includes]... the idea of taking submission by force."



_____________________________

"Train 'em the right way - my way." Lance Hughes
"Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer, but wish we didn't." Erica Jong

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(in reply to Syrox)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Measuring up. - 8/14/2011 8:42:31 PM   
Syrox


Posts: 260
Joined: 5/13/2010
Status: offline 		Perhaps a poor choice of phrase on my part. from what i can figure it seems that particularly round my munch area, respect comes from how well you wield a flogger. and respect results in submission. now while i know this isnt always true in all cases, in the people i know it seems to be the case.. I'm not talking about forced collaring as such, , it is a difficult concept in my mind to articulate appropriately.

Dom beats chest and demonstrates flogging ability. subbys swoon to them...

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Measuring up. - 8/14/2011 8:42:37 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 20705
Joined: 2/21/2007
Status: offline 		From the BDSM and/or leather camp.........

In short, that means I'm not Gorean.  I'm not going to say a word about Gorean philosophies, the books, or anything else on those types of issues.  There are, however, some items in your original that may be part of the problem.

In My opinion, it's a mistake to confuse sadism and/or masochism (the caning people for "fun" part) with Dominance or Mastery.  It happens a lot and it's so very far from what the reality is on the matter.  Yes, there are a lot of Dominants and/or Masters in BDSM and even leather who also happen to be sadists.  Yet, if you don't look at them as two different things, you're missing the essence of each.  There are so many folks out there who have one but not the other. 

OP, you mention "submission being forced".  Do you mind if I ask you how many folks you know in the physical world who use that word "force" as how their collaring came about?  Don't include stories about acts of submission that you might have heard or read about, (especially not those you've run across on the net) because again, you're talking about two different things.

Now, not being Gorean, this is just a small piece of advice.  Ask yourself what it is about being Gorean that speaks to you more than other ways of life?  What do you see that appeals to you more than say, plain M/s or an Owner/property dynamic?  What is it that makes you want to identify as Gorean rather than leather, or taken in hand, or a 1950's household, or just male supremacy?  Wouldn't that be the beginning of the answer that you're really looking for?


_____________________________

"Come to the edge, She said.
He said that he was afraid.
Come to the edge, She said.
He came. She pushed him,
And he flew . . ."


http://NE2010.net

Now running "Lady Pact's World".

(in reply to Syrox)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Measuring up. - 8/14/2011 8:45:11 PM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1072
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline 		Wars are started with less confusion.

Lance, if you read the post by Syrox, you will find he came to the gorean forums asking questions, unsure and thinking he would like to know more.   The comments he made were not done by someone thumping a gor book and proclaiming BDSM was evil. 

It was his perception of BDSM, not the entire gorean community, nor was it a direct attack against what you hold dear. 

Why all the drama?  I thought dominants were in control of their emotions, this is not backing that theory up.


_____________________________

"Harry Potter is all about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight, is all about how important it is to have a boyfriend"
--- Stephen King

(in reply to LanceHughes)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Measuring up. - 8/14/2011 8:47:13 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 16506
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Why all the drama?  I thought dominants were in control of their emotions, this is not backing that theory up.


Speaking of drama - was that passive aggressive dig necessary?  Now, I'm not one to talk, but if you're gonna tell someone that what they are doing is wrong, it's usually a good idea to not be doing it yourself.



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¿me preguntas por que compro arroz y flores? compro arroz para vivir y flores para tener algo por lo que vivir.
~Confucio

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(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Measuring up. - 8/14/2011 8:53:39 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 16506
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

OP, you mention "submission being forced".


Hello Lady Pact -
I'd just like to point out that in the Gorean books it is a common theme. 
Best,
sunshine


_____________________________

¿me preguntas por que compro arroz y flores? compro arroz para vivir y flores para tener algo por lo que vivir.
~Confucio

Yes, I am a wonton hussy.

Head Hib Harem Hottie

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Measuring up. - 8/14/2011 8:56:32 PM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1072
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline 		sunshinemess,

I kinda thought it was a direct question...passive aggressive would have been me sugar coating things, then going in with a dig afterward.   Mine was more....plain and to the point.   Why did there need to be more drama, to the point of making an entire thread asking about the gorean section under a guise of a poll.  (pretty straightforward).  

Then, a direct question, regarding dominants, that was presented to A dominant...again, straightforward.  See, I am not a dominant, so my query has no hidden barb or mystery agenda.   I thought all dominant forces were in control of their own emotions, at the very least.   Now, if you want to read something into what I wrote, feel free.   But passive aggressive is not my style, I'm too blunt.  Swallowing one's foot, right up to the knee is also something I have been known to do, but that's because I open mouth and speak whats on my mind, sometimes too quickly. 

If I wished you well, that could be misconstrued as being passive aggressive, so I won't, lol




_____________________________

"Harry Potter is all about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight, is all about how important it is to have a boyfriend"
--- Stephen King

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Measuring up. - 8/14/2011 8:57:44 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 20705
Joined: 2/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
Hello Lady Pact -
I'd just like to point out that in the Gorean books it is a common theme. 
Best,
sunshine


Hello sunshine,

As I'm reading it in the OP, I believe that factor is being attributed to what I'll call the BDSM camp.  Something the OP managed to get in a subsequent post above Mine where he mentions it as a poor choice of words.

I hope you are well.


LP


_____________________________

"Come to the edge, She said.
He said that he was afraid.
Come to the edge, She said.
He came. She pushed him,
And he flew . . ."


http://NE2010.net

Now running "Lady Pact's World".

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Measuring up. - 8/14/2011 8:58:23 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 2987
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Umm Lance, being Gorean and Gorean principles have nothing to do with slavery or what occurs in the slavery.  So before you get so outraged and start insulting Goreans in general, you may want to realize that.

NO insult, now was there?  Only one in your own mind.


Angel, i don't see the insult either, only a question about Gorean beliefs, that springs from what was written in the OP. Who's insulting you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes
I come to point out  that in general I've seen many BDSMers have a "problem" with Goreans and now I see why!


i don't. What i see is Angel and Lance overgeneralizing. Lance asked a question about Gorean beliefs, suddenly Lance is "insulting Goreans in general". Angel took offense to the question, and suddenly it's clear why BDSMers "have a problem with Goreans". i see hyperbole on both sides.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes
The OP in post #1 writes: "Now while i want slaves, the whole BDSM aspect of it does kind of leave me cold. I do not enjoy the idea of caning a girl for fun, taking submission by force."

I take that as: "BDSMers enjoy the idea of caning a girl for fun.  BDSMers take submission by force."
How else am I supposed to take that? 


i don't know. i would have taken it the same way You did, and asked Syrox the same question You did.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes
Both of those staments are about BDSMERS.  Both are patently false.  I repeat "No wonder BDSMErs have a problem with Goreans."


OR...no wonder i think Syrox is wrong this ONE time, this ONE thing He said, if in fact, that's what He meant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes
THEN, there is an attempt to make certain modes of behavior exclusively Gorean.


That would be a question to ask any specific Gorean who does so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes
NO insults anywhere.  Stop imagining them, 'K?


OR... Snark happens. Everybody take a deep breath.

pam

(in reply to LanceHughes)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Measuring up. - 8/14/2011 9:06:12 PM   
LanceHughes


Posts: 4093
Joined: 2/12/2004
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa

Wars are started with less confusion.

Lance, if you read the post by Syrox, you will find he came to the gorean forums asking questions, unsure and thinking he would like to know more.   The comments he made were not done by someone thumping a gor book and proclaiming BDSM was evil. 

It was his perception of BDSM, not the entire gorean community, nor was it a direct attack against what you hold dear. 

Why all the drama?  I thought dominants were in control of their emotions, this is not backing that theory up.


// sarcastic font = ON //
quote:

Why all the drama?

You want drama? Why, I'll show you drama....... LOL!
// sarcastic font = OFF //

Sure, if that was HIS perception of BDSM and not the entire Gorean community, where were the "twue" Goreans helping to let him know that was a..... shall we say, an "unfortunate" thing to say about BDSMers?



_____________________________

"Train 'em the right way - my way." Lance Hughes
"Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer, but wish we didn't." Erica Jong

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50 nz points

Member: VAA's posse

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Measuring up. - 8/14/2011 9:11:23 PM   
LanceHughes


Posts: 4093
Joined: 2/12/2004
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
From the BDSM and/or leather camp.........

In short, that means I'm not Gorean.  I'm not going to say a word about Gorean philosophies, the books, or anything else on those types of issues.  There are, however, some items in your original that may be part of the problem.

In My opinion, it's a mistake to confuse sadism and/or masochism (the caning people for "fun" part) with Dominance or Mastery.  It happens a lot and it's so very far from what the reality is on the matter.  Yes, there are a lot of Dominants and/or Masters in BDSM and even leather who also happen to be sadists.  Yet, if you don't look at them as two different things, you're missing the essence of each.  There are so many folks out there who have one but not the other. 

OP, you mention "submission being forced".  Do you mind if I ask you how many folks you know in the physical world who use that word "force" as how their collaring came about?  Don't include stories about acts of submission that you might have heard or read about, (especially not those you've run across on the net) because again, you're talking about two different things.

Now, not being Gorean, this is just a small piece of advice.  Ask yourself what it is about being Gorean that speaks to you more than other ways of life?  What do you see that appeals to you more than say, plain M/s or an Owner/property dynamic?  What is it that makes you want to identify as Gorean rather than leather, or taken in hand, or a 1950's household, or just male supremacy?  Wouldn't that be the beginning of the answer that you're really looking for?

QUOTED FOR TRUTH!

THANK YOU, LadyPact!  Well said, as usual.  Often you beat me to what I want to say.  This time,  just a little late. LOL!

That is all I have to say.

Regards, Lance

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 8/14/2011 9:15:18 PM >

_____________________________

"Train 'em the right way - my way." Lance Hughes
"Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer, but wish we didn't." Erica Jong

10 fluffy points
50 nz points

Member: VAA's posse

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Measuring up. - 8/15/2011 12:27:57 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6914
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa

Swallowing one's foot, right up to the knee is also something I have been known to do, but that's because I open mouth and speak whats on my mind, sometimes too quickly. 


I think we should be happy when one swallows one's foot.

Ever tried swallowing someone else's foot?

Ten times as embarassing, I tell ya.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Measuring up. - 8/15/2011 6:24:38 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 18465
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Syrox

most of where that opinion is drawn from is actually my local munches, where doms regularly gather to tell tails of who made the reddest ass and with what implement.



Yes, people talk about what they do because that's more interesting than saying "I told her not to buy any ice cream except one with chocolate and now that's all she buys". Which is how D/s works in most relationships, to be honest. S & M is just more interesting to talk about, however it's not the basis of any relationship nor how most time is spent.

OP, what I'm getting from you is this girl who you believe to be the embodiment of your perfect sub called you Gorean, and therefore you're adopting that label. If she had instead said you were the perfect d/s master, would you have adopted that label? You're not labeling yourself, you're allowing another who you aren't even in a relationship with to define you.


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Slave to laundry


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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Measuring up. - 8/15/2011 6:28:08 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Lance,   Let's put this in perspective:

do you go running into threads in the BDSM section indignant and out of control when someone speaks in ignorance about BDSM, do you generalize and throw digs at whole philosophies and understandings of BDSM for example, leather or Old Guard or poly, because one person was speaking in ignorance and suggest an association with these groups?  Do you scream continually how you get how many in society have problems with them?

Personally i think that last part was you were hoping many people would see it in the scrolly thing and come running into the thread.   Otherwise you wouldn't have said it as many times as you did.  You knew it would be seen and that those who like to be indignant about things Gorean would hopefully come in.   When that didn't happen, you ran and started a rant against Goreans and the forum as a whole bitching you were slammed.


YOU don't go off on people in the BDSM section who make ignorant remarks about BDSM, you don't throw such digs at the groups they associate with, you instead teach them.  Which is why i had <---- note, had respect for you and when i saw you had posted in the Gorean section i was very interested in seeing what you had to say.   

The fact is Lance, i told you a lot about Gorean philosophy.  The fact you weren't willing to take a deep breath and remove some of your ignorance regarding Gorean philosophy but instead kept ranting in two separate places... makes a lot clear.


angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Measuring up. - 8/15/2011 6:47:08 AM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1072
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline
quote:

Sure, if that was HIS perception of BDSM and not the entire Gorean community, where were the "twue" Goreans helping to let him know that was a..... shall we say, an "unfortunate" thing to say about BDSMers?


Dashing out the door, so this is a quickie...

Lance, one thing I absolutely adore about the goreans I personally know (not just the names on a screen), is that they are not out to save the world.  People stumble, heck, fall down even...it's expected they will pick themselves up, and move forward, not wait for a passing by gorean to fly by in his cape and fight off evil doers.   Point being, it's not the job of others to come to anyone's defense. 

Part of "measuring up" is the ability to handle oneself in a conversation. 


_____________________________

"Harry Potter is all about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight, is all about how important it is to have a boyfriend"
--- Stephen King

(in reply to LanceHughes)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Measuring up. - 8/21/2011 3:14:29 AM   
Saffleur


Posts: 247
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Lenoir NC
Status: offline 		This is well said and mirrors my thoughts exactly. In short, the school of hard knocks is in session. If you don't let them make mistakes, they never learn.


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa

quote:

Sure, if that was HIS perception of BDSM and not the entire Gorean community, where were the "twue" Goreans helping to let him know that was a..... shall we say, an "unfortunate" thing to say about BDSMers?


Dashing out the door, so this is a quickie...

Lance, one thing I absolutely adore about the goreans I personally know (not just the names on a screen), is that they are not out to save the world.  People stumble, heck, fall down even...it's expected they will pick themselves up, and move forward, not wait for a passing by gorean to fly by in his cape and fight off evil doers.   Point being, it's not the job of others to come to anyone's defense. 

Part of "measuring up" is the ability to handle oneself in a conversation. 



_____________________________

When we see men of worth, we should think of equaling them; when we see men of a contrary character, we should turn inward and examine ourselves.

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Measuring up. - 10/7/2011 2:28:39 AM   
Darkling0110


Posts: 2
Joined: 10/6/2011
Status: offline 		As in so many cases where there are too many opinions, they seem to have veered off topic. You asked simply how do you Measure up to a Gorean?  The answer is as simple as How do you walk? one step at a time.  A true Gorean, is kind when called upon, Friendly when greeted, Fierce when challenged,  His will and desire are absolute.  He is an emotional man, one not afraid to cry, or laugh, one who does not fear death, yet also does not fear to live.  He is not cruel for no reason.  His slaves both fear AND love him in equal parts.  In short a Gorean is one who knows how to live. and though their are slaves, it is said that a slave girl of a Gorean master is Freer then the Umbara of Ar in her lofty cylinder.   A Gorean master is not afraid to take what he wants. in life this can be hard.  we have different rules then thous on Gor, and yet the way we chase life is the same we must be confident and assured of our ways and our life style.  A True Gorean Master can have his 'Love Slave" ,as it is said, and though he the master and her the slave, He will love and care for her as some men of this time and age love and care for their cars.  But more so,  for a Gorean master would live, kill, and die for his slave, as she would for him.  intertwined each would risk all to keep the other safe.  There is a lot to a Gorean man, and a Gorean master.  Though he is kind, and even sometimes Gentle with his slave he knows she is a slave, and thous keeps her in perfect disciple. for she would  have it no other way.  Take what I have said and think upon it.  For from the entire series does this knowledge come.   For most of my life I have read and reread the book of Gor, that place some call counter earth.

I wish you well
Darkling

(in reply to Syrox)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Measuring up. - 10/7/2011 7:57:54 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Darkling,

If I may make some recommendations to make your posting experience a little better here. Try to stay away from the word "true" when applying to things like Gorean, Master, slave, etc.

May I recommend a reading of the first section of Marauders where it speaks a lot about Gorean morality. Goreans are not always kind, it even speaks that praise is rarely given. Goreans sometimes retreat from confrontation, even when challenged, if there are other benefits to doing so, I agree about not afraid to express their emotions, but the series also states it is sometimes a titanic struggle to keep their emotions in check when needed to. There were some Goreans that feared death, Tarl did in the swamp and even went so far as to beg to be a slave, you see even Goreans make mistakes.

I would also recommend using the term Gorean man, rather than Gorean Master. The term Gorean Master smacks of onlinism, or a lack of truly understanding the morality, philosophy, and application of those. A Gorean man may not always live, die or kill for their slave, it would be situational and depend upon the value they have placed on their property.

There is no perfect discipline, even in the series, the slaves made mistakes. A term used in the series is "excellent pastery" so you may wish to research how that was used in the series and see if it will suffice as a replacement for what you are trying to convey.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Measuring up. - 10/7/2011 8:23:34 AM   
ModeratorSix


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Profile   Post #: 39
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