Collarchat.com

Create a
Free Account
As the Collar Turns:
Collarchat.com - BDSM Forum

Home  Login  Search 
Espanol  Deutsch  Francais  Italiano  Portugues 

Atlas Shrugged


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> Atlas Shrugged Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Atlas Shrugged - 8/21/2011 12:27:40 PM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
I just finished Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" for the first time.
As always when I read fiction or non-fiction pertaining to the philosophical and moral values of mankind, I couldn't help but cross reference the view of morality found in it with my understanding of the Gorean morality.

I can't and won't go in to the struggle of overlaying both systems because of the sheer time and space that would require, but there is one concept in particular that I'd like to hear other's views on, especially if they have read "Atlas shrugged".

For those who haven't read it, I'll try to quickly set the scene, in the hopes that it will clarify my later questions:

Rand sketches a world where mankind has been slowly drawn into two opposite camps of philosophy, those who have a morality of entitlement (the looters), and those who feel that they are in charge of creating their own space in the world without relying on anybody else to do it for them (the self-made-men).

The looter's philosophy basically states that man should only live for the welfare of his brothers, and for the welfare of mankind as a whole, that selfishness is the greatest sin, and that those who have an extra-ordinary capability, or fortune, owe those blessings to the inept and incapable. A couple of ways in which this philosophy expresses itself in the book is by the idea that thinking in and of itself is immoral, that man is not capable of distinguishing right from wrong, that reason doesn't exist, and that reality is non-absolute.
The self-made-men's philosophy states that men's highest virtue is to think, because all other virtues directly derive from his ability to think, and that man is responsible for creating his own reality (fortune/environment) by the application of his work ethic and his sense of duty to himself. The self-made-men's oath is: "I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

Note that this oath doesn't imply that one cannot choose to be self-sacrifising in an assumed duty to others, while it does imply that such is only moral to do if the duty to others is assumed out of ones own free will, for the sole reason of ones own satisfaction in doing so -which ever form that satisfaction may take. The pledge in essence, condemns duty out of guilt, and celebrates duty that stems from personal desire and conviction.

It's that pledge I want to take about from the Gorean's perspective.

I find it a very interesting idea, and have spent the past couple of days contemplating from different angles how such a pledge would apply to Goreans. It seems to me that most every example of a Gorean in the books wouldn't have any qualm in taking such an oath, and that most of Norman's books make it clear that this is very much an underlying tenant that Goreans live by, even if this is never literally stated as such.
Do you feel that this is an accurate assessment, and if not, why do you feel that a Gorean would never volunteer to take such an oath?

What about the kajirae though, do you feel that those examples of kajirae "free" in their bonds would be examples of people living by such a pledge?
It seems that while kajirae do live their lives in service to another, they don't seem to do so for the sake of another, but instead, live a life of service for their own sakes, driven by the desire to do so by the existence of their own nature. They most certainly do not lay claim to any other man's obligation to live for their sake.
So is a kajirae on Gor a parasite, a "looter" who lives by a moral code of entitlement? Or do they instead cary as much of a sense of duty in living their own lives, for their own sake, as the free do? Does this oath pertain to them at all?

I've been thinking long and hard about Norman's examples in the book of what Rand would call "a looter's mentality", people whose main ethical code is a code of entitlement, and being owed by others the things they cannot achieve for themselves. So far, the only example I've been able to come up with is the Sames, from the Barrens, and in essence what Norman calls the "Earth morality". It seems that he considers most of Earth's morality to be a looter's morality, while I don't feel that he tries to press through the same point about those kajirae who have found their rightful place in the world... even though he calls both systems a "slave's morality".
Are there any other examples of such a mentality that I may have missed in the books?

Ishtar

_____________________________


Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/21/2011 7:32:56 PM   
blacksword404


Posts: 1601
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline
Most of the goreans in the books would have no problem taking that oath because they already live it. I think slaves would outside of the two sides. A master slave relationship is usually not parasitic but symbiotic. Owning a slave takes a lot of time and work and being a slave means your owner will extract what he needs from you. So neither is getting anything for free.



_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/24/2011 12:13:35 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6914
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
~fr~

Objectivism has significant similarities.

I can't recall whether it was me or Kim who used the term "evolutionary Objectivism" as a brief summary of the core of Gorean philosophy.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to blacksword404)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/25/2011 7:55:15 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 12042
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
The only real difference between objectivism and libertarian was Rand's tendency towards organising her followers like a cult: she took the line that nobody was an Objectivist unless she said that they were, regardless of how influenced by her writings their philosophy happened to be.

_____________________________

If fat is a feminist issue, why is that lardbutted blob Rush Limbaugh such a misogynistic prick?

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/25/2011 3:18:12 PM   
Louve00


Posts: 1533
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline
I think (and bear in mind, this is the thought process of someone who has read the Gor books, but does not identify as a Gorean, and further is going by your definition of a "looter" vs "a self-made man").  I think, according to your definition, if I understand it right, a looter is thinking of mankind only in ways to benefit himself.  And he uses entitlements in the name of mankind as an excuse to justify whatever it is he is seeking entitlement for.  If he is for entitlements for all men, then he is one who is wishing to be run under a government who would provide and protect, provided you live under the governments rule.  That would be if they are seeking unearned entitlements.  Then you are seeking to get them from someone who has the entitlement to give, and thinking of the US's system, you get your entitlements from the government.  The mere basis of this philosophy suggests that if he is unable to think for himself, then he has no choice but to let others (a government) lead him, and not only lead him, but be happy being led in that manner, without say.

I think a self-made man would fall more under examples like Bono, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs...and men who have not only contributed, but through his thought, brought betterment to a society, despite and regardless of government.  On a smaller scale, a business man, who may not bring thought to benefit the world or all mankind, but at least bring him the results of self-sufficiency and personal betterment, without reliance on anyone.

(Now, being I have read the Gor books, and do not associate as a Gorean, this is where I might start making you think I'm nuts lol).  I think owned kajira are looters.  They seek their entitlements (food, shelter, structure) from their owner.  Making them not have to think about their actions as much as just follow what they are told.  I think an unowned kajira is a weak self-made person....maybe.  But she would be made to think for herself.  Whether that thought is strong enough to establish a way of life for her that would make her want to continue to go on that way, or whether she just hangs on, waiting and hoping for someone to come along and own her and put an applied structure back in her life (vs her own survival structuralism) would be up to her, ultimately. 

I think everyone...looter or self-made man....determines which category he thrives in and which category he "needs" to live his life in.  Just as today's submissive or self-determined slave decides that this is what they need to be, and that a dominant man decides its his way or the high way.  (Or a dominant woman, for that matter).

Bottom line is though, there is very little "stretching room" for a self-made man...as he has rules and regulations and laws to abide by that could hinder, obstruct, or just make him cuss everytime he has to abide by them.  Thats not to say it can't be done.  I would venture to say Bono, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs does not think much about government hindering them...other than them having to pay their taxes...and there too, they make so much money from their self independence, its probably no more than an annoyance to him (if that) and not a hardship.  So on thinking of it again, maybe a self-made man has all the stretching room he needs to accomplish his life in his own way.

I will leave your assessments of likeness and kinship to Goreans for the Goreans to answer, but I hope I contributed something that made sense and was of value to you, Ishtarr. 

< Message edited by Louve00 -- 8/25/2011 3:21:50 PM >


_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/25/2011 5:07:47 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 12042
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
Steve Jobs is a looter, not a self made man: he's spent a lengthy and lucrative career poncing off other people's work.

_____________________________

If fat is a feminist issue, why is that lardbutted blob Rush Limbaugh such a misogynistic prick?

(in reply to Louve00)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/25/2011 5:31:09 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 9285
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
Googled the phrase 'Bono tax evasion' - 199,000 results.  Not perhaps a shining example of a non-looter.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


Where equal mind and conquest, equal go.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/25/2011 5:35:25 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 12042
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
Oh, don't even get me started on Bongo.
Jobs just stood out to me as the very model of a looter as he's a man who's made himself very rich indeed by stealing other people's work and thoughts...

_____________________________

If fat is a feminist issue, why is that lardbutted blob Rush Limbaugh such a misogynistic prick?

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/25/2011 5:40:24 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 9285
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
Right.  I won't get either of us started on Bongo.  ;-)

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


Where equal mind and conquest, equal go.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/25/2011 6:17:19 PM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Googled the phrase 'Bono tax evasion' - 199,000 results.  Not perhaps a shining example of a non-looter.



Actually Peon, a man evading taxes would be a prime example of a non-looter within Atlas Shrugged, though if you haven't read the book I know that will probably not make sense; if you care to know why, it's going to take me a couple thousand characters to explain though.

_____________________________


Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/25/2011 6:22:23 PM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
Thank you Louve, that was very much of value.
It's the exactly concept of the kajira living off of others that I'm struggling to define within the context of Atlas Shrugged, because -while she does not build a path for herself- there is also the fact that there is no sense of demand or entitlement that others should take care of her (talking about the books, not the attitude I've seen some take IRL).
She doesn't expect anything to be owed at here, and expects to only get those things she wants by putting in the effort of pleasing those able to give it to her. In that sense what she's doing is still trading, and working... which would make her a self-made man in Rand's view... I feel... yet at the same time not, because there is no drive there to achieve anything beyond bare essentials.

No drive to leave whatever she gets better, bigger, richer, than she got it...

It's been a very interesting journey trying to cross-reference and grok the whole thing, thanks for your reply.

_____________________________


Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to Louve00)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/25/2011 7:21:14 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 9285
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
Actually Peon, a man evading taxes would be a prime example of a non-looter within Atlas Shrugged, though if you haven't read the book I know that will probably not make sense; if you care to know why, it's going to take me a couple thousand characters to explain though.


I caught a documentary on Ayn Rand a while ago, Ishtarr . . . but not enough of it lodged in my head to remember now - other than that her reasoning seemed skew-whiff at a fundamental level, to me.  I shall take your word for it. 

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


Where equal mind and conquest, equal go.

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/26/2011 6:34:22 AM   
Louve00


Posts: 1533
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline
I'm glad to have been able to share an opinion and help you, Ishtarr  :-)

And to Moonhead and PeonforHer...I would consider them self made men, not because they "stole" ideas from other men, but because they thought of ways to make things happen.  Good ideas are good if they are implemented.  Some people are willing to sit and brainstorm, and others are willing to act.  You can't steal a patent and you can own a patent, if you don't get up and make it happen.  As an example, Facebook would not exist now, if Mark Zuckerberg didn't get off his ass and execute the ideas of a social network that his friends came up with.  Just my opinion.


_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/26/2011 9:23:43 AM   
blacksword404


Posts: 1601
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

I'm glad to have been able to share an opinion and help you, Ishtarr  :-)

And to Moonhead and PeonforHer...I would consider them self made men, not because they "stole" ideas from other men, but because they thought of ways to make things happen.  Good ideas are good if they are implemented.  Some people are willing to sit and brainstorm, and others are willing to act.  You can't steal a patent and you can own a patent, if you don't get up and make it happen.  As an example, Facebook would not exist now, if Mark Zuckerberg didn't get off his ass and execute the ideas of a social network that his friends came up with.  Just my opinion.



There is another part of the book that seems applicable to today's life. And that is the absence of the executives. By executives I mean people who are brave enough to make decisions and deal with the consequences. Instead of waiting to be told exactly what to do so as not to incur any blame what so ever they act, in the best way they can see. I see a lot of people today who are just not willing to step up. Or maybe it's our society that makes it this way. Everybody is trying to limit liability and blame. And if nothing gets done? Well that's nothing that can be blamed back on them.

I'll give you an example. I had a delivery one day to a big name store. Once I get there the manager there at night finds that he does not have me on his schedule. So he doesn't know what to do. He really has only two choices. Either unload me or not. So he has to call the day manager and wake him up to see what he should do. Now maybe this is store policy. I don't know. But it seems in the past managers were given much more executive power.

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

(in reply to Louve00)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/27/2011 3:02:15 AM   
areallivehuman


Posts: 145
Joined: 1/16/2010
Status: offline
I think you've missed part of the point of the book. Mind you,it's been years since I've read it. But not everyone needs to be a rich famous executive to be successful. There was certainly a place within Rands philosophy for the person who earns his way in society, by working honorably at a humble job, living within their means, not demanding more than their contribution entitled them to. While she only touched on it briefly, I got the impression that in the case of a stay at home wife/mother/kajira, there is an exchange of value that takes place. It is this transaction that keeps such a relationship from being one of a host/parasite. 

(in reply to blacksword404)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/27/2011 6:18:04 AM   
bighappygoth39


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/7/2009
Status: offline
You're missing Moonhead's point, Louve: Steve Wozniak would still be a successful man in the IT industry without getting involved with Jobs, but Jobs wasn't even capable of programming Breakout for Atari without getting Wozniak to do the work for him. There might not be an Apple without Jobs, but it's likely that Wozniak would have built a very fine microcomputer or two at Hewlett Packard, or elsewhere. Despite the tendency to overinflate Apple's importance to the PC boom, lots of people were jumping that bandwagon at the time, and somebody who could design the Apple II singlehanded wouldn't have had any trouble finding another berth to do so.

Also, what's this "stole" stuff? There is no doubt at all that big Jobs' greatest talent from the off has been taking credit for other people's work. He's a pretty good marketing man, but he has never had anything to do with the technical side of Apple, despite claiming credit for pretty much everything they stuck out  in the early years and since 1997. Are you seriously saying that isn't looting because he's going out and stealing money he hasn't made from others himself rather than waiting in line for a handout?


_____________________________

Extremely proud owner of Moonhead.

I just lurrves me chesticles, I do. :)

Don't judge a book by it's cover, it could well be worth a good sniff or two...

(in reply to Louve00)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/27/2011 6:39:31 AM   
Louve00


Posts: 1533
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline
I am not going to nit-pick over what Jobs did vs what Wozniak did.  Wozniak could have done it too...or partenered with Jobs.  Quite frankly, I wasn't paying much attention and used Jobs as an example because at the time of this OP, Jobs had just resigned and I read what the news was giving him credit for.  So cross Jobs off your list if you think he's a moocher, but I believe he's a mover and shaker.

As far as the "stole" stuff, it was a direct reply to "Steve Jobs is a looter, not a self made man: he's spent a lengthy and lucrative career poncing off other people's work." 

I got Moonhead's point, and explained to him my reason for thinking otherwise. 

I have nothing against Moonhead and have agreed with him many times over the course of many other debates.  But I'm not a robot who automatically agrees with people I like.  I state my opinion.  If you don't like my opinion, don't agree with it. 

There is a whole company who does not apparently think he stole anything from them.  I have not worked with his company to assess that myself.  Have you?


_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to bighappygoth39)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/27/2011 7:01:49 AM   
tj444


Posts: 3166
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
I am not going to nit-pick over what Jobs did vs what Wozniak did.  Wozniak could have done it too...or partenered with Jobs.  Quite frankly, I wasn't paying much attention and used Jobs as an example because at the time of this OP, Jobs had just resigned and I read what the news was giving him credit for.  So cross Jobs off your list if you think he's a moocher, but I believe he's a mover and shaker.

As far as the "stole" stuff, it was a direct reply to "Steve Jobs is a looter, not a self made man: he's spent a lengthy and lucrative career poncing off other people's work." 

I got Moonhead's point, and explained to him my reason for thinking otherwise. 

I have nothing against Moonhead and have agreed with him many times over the course of many other debates.  But I'm not a robot who automatically agrees with people I like.  I state my opinion.  If you don't like my opinion, don't agree with it. 

There is a whole company who does not apparently think he stole anything from them.  I have not worked with his company to assess that myself.  Have you?

Imo, the saying that if you build a better mousetrap they will come.. its BS. You need much more than that.. you need the right product with the right marketing and the right timing..

If anyone cares to know what Steve Wozniak himself thinks on Jobs, here is a recent interview with him.
http://www.bloomberg.com/video/74391682/

_____________________________

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

(in reply to Louve00)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/27/2011 7:22:11 AM   
Louve00


Posts: 1533
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline
Thanks tj!  It was an informative interview and continues to make me categorize him as a self-made man.  And Wozniak apparently holds no malice towards him.  Not sure why strangers would.  Not to mention, as a personal perk for me, about 9 minutes into the interview they showed a pretty pit bull laying down quietly in an office.  Thanks again!!  

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Atlas Shrugged - 8/28/2011 6:36:40 AM   
bighappygoth39


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/7/2009
Status: offline
Wozniak might not hold any malice towards Jobs now, but he was furious when he left Apple. He's had twenty odd years to calm down since, it should be remembered.


_____________________________

Extremely proud owner of Moonhead.

I just lurrves me chesticles, I do. :)

Don't judge a book by it's cover, it could well be worth a good sniff or two...

(in reply to Louve00)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> Atlas Shrugged Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2012
Collarchat.com is a member of the Free Speech Coalition
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

1.796