RE: Running from Mastery

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RE: Running from Mastery - 11/8/2011 4:50:00 AM

leonine

Posts: 34
Joined: 11/3/2009
From: leo9@silverandsteel.co.uk
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

quote:

He may be a man of his word, and of honor when dealing with free, but that doesn't mean anything when it comes to dealing with slaves, because no honor is owed to them...

Greetings Mistress,

There is much in your post and in many of the subsequent threads that I will digest and respond to later today- but I am running out the door and did not wish to reply hastily, but would rather give them the thought due them. However I did want to reply just to this little snippet while it was in my mind. I do not think a man owes anyone- free or otherwise- honour. Naturally, I cannot know this first hand, being neither free nor a man, so this is a guess- but from what I have read in the books and what I have encountered among men, is that they owe honour to themselves and themselves alone. A man doesn't measure himself according to women- either Free Women or kajirae. A man measures himself according to his own measurements.

I'm new to this forum and catching up on this fascinating thread, I meant to read to the end before replying but some thing are catching my attention.

This suggests to me two pieces of wisdom:
"Reputation is what others know about you, honour is what you know about yourself. Guard your honour and let your reputation fall where it may." - L.M. Bujold.
"Judge a man by the way he treats those below him." - Anon.

An honourable man has more obligations, not less, to the powerless. That's the basic principle of chivalry. To mistreat a slave is as despicable as kicking a dog - more so, some dogs bite back. Using her for your pleasure regardless of hers, disregarding her wishes when they don't suit you, giving arbitrary orders and punishments, is not mistreatment: it's what she chose when she submitted to you. But when you put on that collar you took on the same obligations of care you would take on when you adopted a pet: to care for her health (mental and emotional, too,) to dispose of her considerately if you can't keep her, not to leave her worse off than you found her.

Not just my not at all humble opinion, but the opinion of many wise people throughout the ages.

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RE: Running from Mastery - 11/8/2011 5:17:06 AM

leonine

Posts: 34
Joined: 11/3/2009
From: leo9@silverandsteel.co.uk
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

greetings,

I think for some slaves, they sublimate their personality so his wants become their wants, and his expectations become the ones you strive for. You learn to mold yourself to being everything he wants and desires. It is a very difficult thing to do and that is why there are not very many people in this type of relationship.

And a good thing too, IMNSHO. A mind is a terrible thing to lose, but so is a personality. Any relationship that makes a person less than they were alone is a bad one.

There's a novel from the 70s, "Kin Flicks," which I think dramatises this well. The heroine models herself on every strong minded person that crosses her path, with each new one she throws away everything she thought and believed before and tries to shape herself to suit her new dominant. (There is no BDSM element, apart from a brief game with handcuffs, but it is fundamentally about submission.) At the end of the book she is left sitting alone looking back on it all trying to find anything that is really herself.

I've corresponded with some of these, who worried about whether they were wrong to think something because it wasn't what their Master said, and hoped that if they only tried hard enough they would never ever think or feel anything that Master didn't approve, and it made my skin crawl.

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RE: Running from Mastery - 11/8/2011 5:31:44 AM

leonine

Posts: 34
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From: leo9@silverandsteel.co.uk
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mons

bull
you mention that a slave is to hold her child below the master he comes first and in my word formost above anything including her child, this is words of someone whom have never had a child, a child is to be love nuture and care for above anyone!!!!!!

This reminds me of an exchange which in various forms happened again and again on the alt.sex.bondage newsgroup. (Yes, I am that old.) We'd be discussing limits to slavery, and someone would brag that she was such a great slave that she had absolutely no limits, she would accept anything her Master wished because she was totally His.

Me: So what if he was going to harm your child?
She: He never would, I gave myself to Him because I know He is absolutely trustworthy.
Me: But what if he did?
(usually repeat 2 or 3 times before...)
She: Then He wouldn't be the Master I gave myself to and I would consider it over. But that's never going to happen so I have absolutely no limits...

< Message edited by leonine -- 11/8/2011 5:36:28 AM >

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RE: Running from Mastery - 11/8/2011 6:07:07 PM

kisshou

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**rolls her eyes**

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RE: Running from Mastery - 11/8/2011 7:41:25 PM

IrishMist

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Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

**rolls her eyes**

I second that and raise it a *snicker*

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RE: Running from Mastery - 11/9/2011 5:52:15 AM

nephandi

Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Greetings

quote:

Thank you for your thoughts on my question- I apologize for the delayed reply. In regard to what you say about the quotes from the books... I think, looking at them from Norman's point of view, the crux is that Norman repeatedly says that both slave and Free exist in all women. The way I have come to understand this, is that I see the slaves in the books as representing that "natural biological reaction... instinct to breed... that is hardwired into us" - that is the slave within us- that is what causes us to react to a man. The rest of a woman, that which controls those biological needs rather than being controlled by them, is the Free Woman.

There is no need to apologize, I am also sorry for my late reply but I do not usually visit this forum every day. I see your point however to me sexually reacting to a man, the need to breed do not mean a loss of freedom. Off course you can be completely controlled by your sex drive, but generally I do not see that the difference between being free and being a slave is whatever or not you are sexual. I have personally never been a very sexual person, sex is not a big deal for me. I have urges to serve, to be a slave, but I have never felt that as concected with any sexual urge, nor do I as a free woman have any less sexual urges or a more need to control those I have. Now I should mention that I have Aspergers syndrome and many of us have limited sexual urges so that might be a part of why sex have never been that important to me. However I have always felt that the sexuality of slaves vs free women in the Gor books had more to do with the women who would bear the free men children having to be chaste in a world where the only way to be sure a man's child was actually his would be to control his woman's sexuality.

quote:

The story about your grandparents is beautiful:) They remind me a little of Master's grandparents. Mine were the opposite way - my grandfather ruled the roost:) And yes what you say is a good point. I wonder where the line is between that type of relationship and mastery? At what point do you begin to lose your autonomy?

Thank you. Hum...it is a good question when a relationship where one have more power then the other becomes mastery. I think perhaps when it is no longer an arrangement that just work for that relationship when when the more submissive part no longer can say no. I am not thinking here on the use of force, but when you are so overwhelmed by the other that they rule your life.

quote:

I also think you are right that sometimes people are afraid or it is the wrong time. Grief and hurt for example, can make people not ready to let other people into themselves, and also hide themselves away from mixing with people where they might meet someone- until they feel ready again.

This is very true.

quote:

Thank you for sharing your thoughts Mistress.

Thank you for sharing yours.

I wish you well

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RE: Running from Mastery - 11/9/2011 6:07:11 AM

nephandi

Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Greetings

quote:

I see so many types of women , slaves, free women
is there a Mistress here?

Do you mean Anna referring to me as Mistress? Master and Mistress is what slaves who identify as Gorean is supposed to refer to free as. I personally do not require it, it always make me cringe a little, but in reality it is a way to be polite like a child referring to adults as Ma'am and Sir.

quote:

I have one question that has
not came up, do the Master ever married the slaves? I know
there are certain things that may never happen, but does it ever began
as just a slave and Master and then a marriage happens?

I have come up allot, if you do a search for it on the Gorean section of Collarme you will find allot about that topic. In the books no it never happens that a free marries or as it is referred to there entering into free companionship with a slave. At times a slave could be freed and then a companionship happened so yes sometimes a relationship as begun as Master and slave would become a marriage. However no one would marry a slave. In real life yes it do happen, usually for legal purposes like for example in many places unless a man and a woman is married if something, heavens forbid, happened to one of them then the other would have no say in their treatment and might not even be allowed to see them in the hospital. Generally however most Goreans real life or in the books look at marriage to a slave as distasteful. Personally I am not against it but many are.

quote:

Whom takes care of the people in each place whom
may have issues not adress here i.e mental health, or serious
illness!

There have been several threads about what happens when one part in a Master/slave relationship get seriously ill. Various people have various ways to deal with it. Most however in my experience stay together and try to keep the dynamic alive as best they can, but there is no right or wrong answer here. In the books people seldom became ill due to the stabilizer serums making people unaging and pretty resilient to everything but a slave in the Gor books who became useless or to wounded or ill would probably be killed or freed and left to fend for themselves, some might be cared for but generally they would be discarded. A free getting to ill to take care of themselves, well that would depend, if they had kin to care for them they might survive, if not then the harsh society on Gor would eat them alive.

I wish you well

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Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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RE: Running from Mastery - 11/15/2011 3:35:31 AM

mons

Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/16/2005
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Nephani

Thank you for answering my questions! I have reads all that you told me, I know
that it is a close knit group and i have the answer, it is wonderful to see how things
work but on Gor things would not be pleasent for slave! I understand about the marriage part
it is true families are sometime a nightmare when it comes to what is left behind! I had not
ideal my brother left me money but oh the people in my family went nuts and he promise me this or that
i wish he never left me a dime i gave it or she took it and that was that! Thank so much Nephani for you helpful'i
information! Now it time for bed night1

my best wishes
jane/mons

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