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Running from Mastery - 10/21/2011 5:02:54 PM

AnnaOfAramis

Posts: 509
Joined: 7/30/2008
Status: offline

Greetings Masters, Mistresses, and slaves,

Several days ago on a couple of different threads here as well as offline, a few different women had stated something along the lines that they would run from a man they felt capable of mastering them. It has echoed and echoed through my thoughts since then and I finally have to post and ask your thoughts on this. Perhaps it is beyond my understanding because I am a slave, but I cannot understand this. I think of various quotes in the books - too numerous to mention, but here are just a sprinkling:

"The paradox of the collar is the freedom which a woman experiences in at last finding herself, and becoming herself." --- Magicians of Gor

"A woman, I had learned, must choose between freedom and love".---Slave Girl of Gor

"Woman is the natural love prey of man. She is natural quarry. She is complete only when caught, only when brought to the joy of her capture and conquest." --- Hunters of Gor

"The Gorean girl, whether slave or free, who has had the experience, who has tried all loves, begs for a master. She wishes to belong completely to a man, withholding nothing, permitted to withhold nothing. And, of course, of all women, only a slave girl can truly belong to a man, only a slave girl can be truly his, in all ways, utterly, totally, completely, his, selflessly, at his mercy, his ecstatic slave, helpless and joyous in the total submission which she is given no choice but to yield".
--Hunters of Gor

I suppose, I don't understand why a woman would run from finding a man she could belong to, why she would run from that deep a love. From being understood so profoundly and from being able to shed everything and be herself. If for freedom, but then freedom is found in the collar. I suppose I am looking at this as a slave would, but I would seek out and search for that man who could master me, not run the other way. What is it that I am not understanding? I would appreciate your different perspectives.

Well wishes,
anna

_____________________________

“I refuse to be the leader. I want a man ... always over me. His will, his pleasure, his desire, his life, his work, his sexuality the touchstone, the command, my pivot."~Anaiis Nin

Post #: 1

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/21/2011 7:13:33 PM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

I suppose, I don't understand why a woman would run from finding a man she could belong to, why she would run from that deep a love. From being understood so profoundly and from being able to shed everything and be herself. If for freedom, but then freedom is found in the collar. I suppose I am looking at this as a slave would, but I would seek out and search for that man who could master me, not run the other way. What is it that I am not understanding? I would appreciate your different perspectives.

For me personally, it's because I've learned that a love that deep can easily be completely empty within. The defining quality of a kajira's love is that she looses herself in it, and I've learned that I don't want to do that.

Being understood profoundly doesn't necessarily translate into being allowed to be yourself, because a man who does have such control and understanding over a woman can easily uses it against her into forcing her to be something she is not, or in taking away those things that make her herself.

The best analogy I can come up with to describe my reasoning is to compare it to the difference between nutritional food and junk food. Sure, junk food can give you a sugar and calorie high, but it lacks the nutrition to sustain a person healthily long term. At the same time, nutritional food may not always present a person with the "rush" and immediate saturation that junk food can offer, but it's generally better and more satisfying in the long run.

I guess that sometimes, on rare occasion, a girl may be lucky enough to find the type of master that will offer her both at the same time. A man who will offer the highs of mastery combined with an all-round healthy, stable and secure relationship, where in the girl, despite being controlled completely has the opportunity to fully self-actualize and be herself.
If I could count on mastery situations necessarily working out that way, I'd probably not hesitate in seeking it out again, it's just that I don't think that those outcomes are the norm.

Seeking out mastery is a risk a woman takes -a risk that has a very high likelihood of ending up badly- precisely because a woman looses her self in mastery and thus gives up all her defenses against getting stuck in the wrong kind of relationship.

Considering how hard it was for me to break away from a relationship I knew wasn't good for me, and wasn't going to work out in the long run -and it was very hard, so hard it would have been impossible for me to leave, at least when I did, if Bull had decided he wasn't going to allow it to happen and had actively worked against me leaving- I'm just not willing to take the risk anymore.

There is no guaranty that the next man will actually be benevolent enough to let me go if I feel the situation wouldn't be right for me, in which case there would be the huge risk of get stuck in the wrong situation, and the perpetual unhappiness -or at least much much longer then I'm willing to bear- that would bring. The risk/reward levels just don't add up, either short or long term, not for me at least. Especially not seeing that I've come to appreciate, value and understand my freedom and desire therefor much more due to the experiences I've had.

I'm very happy right now, and while I don't get to enjoy the absolute highs of mastery, I also don't have to bear the absolute depths of misery it is capable of creating. Why risk happiness and security for a chance to win the lottery, especially now that I'm fully aware of how incredible high the price of the ticket can be?

Ishtar

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 10/21/2011 7:14:16 PM >

_____________________________

Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to AnnaOfAramis)

Post #: 2

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/22/2011 4:54:28 AM

mons

Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline

I can understand both of you letters! I was with a man whom if i could say was so much like the men here I must say yes he was, masterful, everything I had wanted in a man, i love him I was like his slave! He tuaght me how to be a woman, his woman the way to dress ( i am not sure if this is true for the women here) but i only dress and talk the way he taught me, I did not see the warning signs , i lose myself in him so much i did not know whom i was! When he left me, the world ended for me! I had no ideal how to be me, no this was not anything to do with bdsm, he frown on anything like that , plus i had no ideal that existed! We were to be married, i had forgotten about him, oh i thought of him but not like this after reading your letters! We all want someone to lead us help us as woman, (back then for me) but it is so true if you end up with the wrong person it can be hell! if this man is abusive or emotionally abusive too then it is even worse, you can not tell unless someone tells you! I had no one to tell me I was young and did not see the monster he truly was, i did not mind his ways or his controling me i wanted it i welcome it! But when he knew i could not make it without him he just never called or came back! He left me pregant and alone! I never trusted a man for many years!

When you said if the next person does not let you leave? Is this so, i remember he wanted when he came back for us to move somewhere i know no one, far from friends and family,I knew something was wrong, he left again! No one is to have this much power over another, it is ok if that person has his heart with you, master or not! i hope you do not mind me answering your post, but you see i went through this! yes he was a master to me, intellgent, and so controlling but i love it until it crash and burned me, i was lefted on the side of the road! I forgive but i never forgot! When you see you own son and do not speak to him what kind of man is that, not a man! He was much older then I was, degrees from so many colleges' he was a bio-chemist, and he was so smart! He did research for cancers , and other types of medical thingdiseases'!

i do wish you the best, time heals all wounds and pain, my prays are with you both
jane

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 3

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/22/2011 9:22:23 AM

AnnaOfAramis

Posts: 509
Joined: 7/30/2008
Status: offline

Thank you Mistress for taking the time to explain. I think I begin to understand somewhat now. In the books girls often went through several Masters before finding the Master meant for them. But, of course, they didn't have any ability to free themselves from the wrong ones. So, the fear is that one can become the property of someone who is not the best for the girl, but even so, being mastered she will not be able to leave- unless it becomes so bad that she becomes unmastered- and even that is so hard and wrenching that it takes a girl a long time to get over. So some would prefer not to take the chance.... hence veils of concealment...

Thanks for the food for thought...

Well wishes,
anna

_____________________________

“I refuse to be the leader. I want a man ... always over me. His will, his pleasure, his desire, his life, his work, his sexuality the touchstone, the command, my pivot."~Anaiis Nin

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 4

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/22/2011 10:09:32 AM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

So some would prefer not to take the chance.... hence veils of concealment...

Actually anna, most women will not ever want to take the chance.
I still believe that almost all women could be mastered, by the right man, I also know how deliriously happy it can make a woman if she is mastered, yet, despite almost all women being capable of experiencing mastery, they are also almost always very adverse to the idea.

Most women in our current society would react negatively if you could -in full depth and nuance- explain what your slavery means to you. They would disapprove exactly of those parts of the mastery you are held under which you treasure most.

I believe that this immediate negative reaction most women have to the concept of submitting is not caused by the fact that they are internally free, but because they on a very instinctual level understand and long for the love a kajira has.
However, most women also understand that, currently, most men are jackasses.
They understand that most men are raised in such a way they would be utterly incompetent and terrible at mastering women. And they also understand that even those men who are capable of mastery, rarely ever have the drive to actually provide security for women.
These days, most men who are capable of mastery are users... they aren't the same type fluttering around BDSM boards who are for the most part actually aware of the responsibility they take on when setting out to master a woman.
These days, most men have been told so clearly that aspirations to mastery and masculinity are despicable, that most good men force themselves to be repulsed by the idea, and most of those who still seek out to find it are scum with no concept of responsibility and honor.
Men who are strong enough to morally choose to seek mastery are incredible rare.

So knowing all that, and knowing that the chances of finding a bad man far exceed the chances of finding a good one, it's not really a wonder most women are repulsed by the idea of mastery by men... of even by the idea of the man doing so little as being the leader in his own home. A woman will always look for security first and for most, and currently, most women have absolutely not the slightest bit of faith in men's capability to provide security for them. Therefore, they find it most important to live in such a way that they will only depend on themselves to provide their own security.

Most would prefer not to take the chance.
Kajira are a rare breed by necessity... not inclination.

Ishtar

_____________________________

Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to AnnaOfAramis)

Post #: 5

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/22/2011 11:24:26 AM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

a few different women had stated something along the lines that they would run from a man they felt capable of mastering them.

Oh and after rereading your original post, have to also make this addition:

For me personally, I wouldn't necessarily stay away from men who posses the capability to master me, only from those who have the drive and desire to actually peruse that option.

I will always be drawn to strong men, and I would never settle for a man who hasn't got the desire to be "king in his castle". However, I'll also never again be in a relationship with a man who desires to gain totalitarian control over me.

Ishtar

_____________________________

Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to AnnaOfAramis)

Post #: 6

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/22/2011 3:35:32 PM

AnnaOfAramis

Posts: 509
Joined: 7/30/2008
Status: offline

Greetings Mistress,

I always love reading your posts. Thank you for the additional input.

quote:

Most women in our current society would react negatively if you could -in full depth and nuance- explain what your slavery means to you. They would disapprove exactly of those parts of the mastery you are held under which you treasure most.

Very true. Most do not understand why they would even not want equality, yet alone the man as head of household... slavery is a concept few could grasp in that context. But then, that was much of Norman's point and why he chose to take it out of that context and place it on another planet entirely- to most women in our current society it is that alien a concept.

quote:

most men are raised in such a way they would be utterly incompetent and terrible at mastering women.

True. Most men do not master themselves either. I think that one of the reason Gorean men are the way they are is because they have had to make that journey into becoming Gorean and to look unflinchingly at themselves and make the changes necessary- the willingness and ability to see that task through takes a special breed I think and is a rarity. And there is no way a man who cannot master his own life can master someone else- at least I don't think so.

quote:

A woman will always look for security first and for most, and currently, most women have absolutely not the slightest bit of faith in men's capability to provide security for them. Therefore, they find it most important to live in such a way that they will only depend on themselves to provide their own security.

But then, perhaps a woman who seeks security simply cannot be mastered until she is convinced that the man she has found will provide that security? Although, admittedly, it can be hard to avoid becoming mastered while you are waiting to find out.

quote:

I will always be drawn to strong men, and I would never settle for a man who hasn't got the desire to be "king in his castle".

*nods* you yourself are very strong - as am I- and well it's just eww to have a man who is weaker. Can't stand it when I know I can walk all over a man.

quote:

However, I'll also never again be in a relationship with a man who desires to gain totalitarian control over me.

While I can understand, for all the reasons you stated why you would try to avoid it, my experience has been I had no choice in the matter. I suppose if I had the inkling he was such a man, and I had wanted to avoid it, perhaps I would have never seen him again. But, I think I was unaware of it taking place until it was already a done deal- sort of snuck up on me... until all of a sudden, quite unexpectedly I found myself begging his collar. Nor do I regret it for one minute, but just pointing out that I don't think I could have avoided it even if I'd wanted to.

Well wishes and thank you for the exchange of thoughts,

anna

_____________________________

“I refuse to be the leader. I want a man ... always over me. His will, his pleasure, his desire, his life, his work, his sexuality the touchstone, the command, my pivot."~Anaiis Nin

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 7

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/22/2011 4:02:03 PM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

But then, perhaps a woman who seeks security simply cannot be mastered until she is convinced that the man she has found will provide that security?

If a mastered woman thinks that she can count on the man who masters her to do something -no matter what kind of man he is- she is delusional.
Mastered women cannot count on the men that master them.
They may be lucky enough to be mastered by a man who will always be there for them and provide, but it's not something she can count or depend on in any stage of her enslavement.

She is dependent on the man who masters her, fully, and without reservation.
She is dependent on him, even if he makes the wrong choices, or changes his mind.

Masters do not owe their kajira anything. So a kajira should never be convinced that her master will do anything at all.
He might, or he might not... but whatever his choice the consequences will be her's to bare as well.

A mastered woman who is convinced that her Master WILL do something is still trapped in the illusion that he owes her something.
She may have blind faith in him, or the hope that he will doing something, but faith should not be mistaken for certainty or proof.
She should realize that the hope and blind faith she has in him is just that and nothing more: "blind faith" and it should never bring her to be "convinced" of anything.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

my experience has been I had no choice in the matter. I suppose if I had the inkling he was such a man, and I had wanted to avoid it, perhaps I would have never seen him again. But, I think I was unaware of it taking place until it was already a done deal- sort of snuck up on me... until all of a sudden, quite unexpectedly I found myself begging his collar. Nor do I regret it for one minute, but just pointing out that I don't think I could have avoided it even if I'd wanted to.

I don't think you could have avoided it either, I don't think I could have either. If Bull hadn't been the man to compel me to jump on a plane and meet him, some other man would have, because I was actively seeking them out. After meeting in person, I don't think I was left with the capability to turn back.

Now that you know the type of man it takes, and which things are important to you in a man, would you stay around a man who does not live up to your standards long enough for him to master you?
Would you be unable to recognize a man starting the conquest of mastering you?
You may not have been able to avoid it the first time, would a second time be different though?

It's questions I've been asking myself, but at the same time, I do not worry much about it.
Men capable of mastery are thin spread and hard to find even when one deliberately seeks them out.
When not seeking them out, they really aren't that hard to avoid.
Further, men who are capable of mastery usually have their pick between a multitude of women who are eager and more than willing to serve.
I don't see a man go out of his way to bring on the headache of attempt to master a woman who is unwilling in this culture, when some many others are begging for it.

Ishtar

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 10/22/2011 4:05:42 PM >

_____________________________

Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to AnnaOfAramis)

Post #: 8

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/22/2011 8:34:55 PM

AnnaOfAramis

Posts: 509
Joined: 7/30/2008
Status: offline

Greetings Mistress,

quote:

Mastered women cannot count on the men that master them.
They may be lucky enough to be mastered by a man who will always be there for them and provide, but it's not something she can count or depend on in any stage of her enslavement.

She is dependent on the man who masters her, fully, and without reservation.
She is dependent on him, even if he makes the wrong choices, or changes his mind.

Masters do not owe their kajira anything. So a kajira should never be convinced that her master will do anything at all.
He might, or he might not... but whatever his choice the consequences will be her's to bare as well.

A mastered woman who is convinced that her Master WILL do something is still trapped in the illusion that he owes her something.
She may have blind faith in him, or the hope that he will doing something, but faith should not be mistaken for certainty or proof.
She should realize that the hope and blind faith she has in him is just that and nothing more: "blind faith" and it should never bring her to be "convinced" of anything.

Greetings Mistress, I agree that a man doesn't "owe" his slave anything and that she is fully dependent on him- even if he makes wrong choices. She still remains his despite these things. However, I do think a girl learns to count on and depend on him- that is even a part of being dependent on him, isn't it? It is also a part of trust. And a man who masters a woman generally needs to gain her trust and doesn't lightly break it. When you seek out a man whom you think capable of mastering you, some of those qualities are things a girl seeks. Is he a man of honour, of his word? Does he inspire her trust and devotion and faith in him? Is he committed to owning you and maintaining mastery over you, or is this some short term game for him? These are just some of the questions one might ask oneself. No, a man doesn't "owe" a slave anything, and nothing in life is guaranteed, but a girl tries to evaluate a man for who he is and if he is true to himself, he will be true to his codes and to being what he says he is. That is probably the best a girl can do when she is thinking of begging a man's collar. And one supposes that if a girl's basic needs are not met, or if he turns out not to be trustworthy etc. then he may well lose his mastery of her. If he owes her anything, perhaps it is mastery, simply because you can't have slavery without mastery.

quote:

Now that you know the type of man it takes, and which things are important to you in a man, would you stay around a man who does not live up to your standards long enough for him to master you?
Would you be unable to recognize a man starting the conquest of mastering you?
You may not have been able to avoid it the first time, would a second time be different though?

Tough questions indeed. I don't think I would stay around a man who did not live up to my standards long enough for him to master me- I don't think such a man would be capable of mastering me- but one can never be sure of such things. Would I recognize a man starting to master me... I suspect not. But different men may use different methods and perhaps in some cases I would and in other cases I wouldn't. Not something I suppose one can know unless one experiences it. I truly don't know if I could avoid it if I wanted to once in the vicinity of a man who determined to master me. The only way is probably as you say to not be near them. But I doubt I could do that for long either... I'm drawn to strong men.

well wishes,
anna

_____________________________

“I refuse to be the leader. I want a man ... always over me. His will, his pleasure, his desire, his life, his work, his sexuality the touchstone, the command, my pivot."~Anaiis Nin

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 9

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/22/2011 9:22:58 PM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

However, I do think a girl learns to count on and depend on him- that is even a part of being dependent on him, isn't it?

She might, but based on everything you've said about the process of mastery, you realize that she wouldn't learn that it's generally safe to depend on him until after mastery is already well on it's way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

It is also a part of trust. And a man who masters a woman generally needs to gain her trust and doesn't lightly break it.

A man may need to gain a woman's trust in order to have her agree to be close enough to him while he sets out to master her, but he does not need to maintain it in order to maintain mastery over her, once he's got it.
He might choose to do so, depending on the type of man he, but he doesn't have to, and he may not care that much at all.
I also think you are very mistaken in thinking that most men wouldn't break trust lightly after mastery. Once mastery is established, the man doesn't need to keep her trust as a tool like he did while enslaving her, so he can choose to break it rather lightly if he wants.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

Is he a man of honour, of his word? Does he inspire her trust and devotion and faith in him? Is he committed to owning you and maintaining mastery over you, or is this some short term game for him?

It doesn't matter what kind of man he is, or the girl perceives him to be, or he presents himself to be, precisely because he doesn't owe her anything.
He may be a man of his word, and of honor when dealing with free, but that doesn't mean anything when it comes to dealing with slaves, because no honor is owed to them.
A man can't break his word to a slave, because even if he would give it, he doesn't owe her to keep it.
He may present himself as being committed to her, but if he, even on a whim, chooses to discard her, he can do so with an absolutely free conscious.

He may not choose to do any of these things, because he feels he owes it to himself, but none of it is stuff that the slave can count on because it doesn't have anything to do with her.
Crude as it may sound, as many people as get family pets thinking they'll love them forever, and still many discard, abandon or kill them when the pets, due to circumstance become inconvenient.
A mastered woman should never allow herself to believe that she can count on more, than any of those abandoned pets can. Because if her owner gets sick of her, he doesn't owe her more cutesy than to simple ride himself of her.

You can have all the faith in the world, founded or unfounded, but don't count that faith as certainty.
You are taking a huge gamble, no matter what type of man you think he is, or how well you think you know him. In the end, he owes you nothing if he gets tired of you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

And one supposes that if a girl's basic needs are not met, or if he turns out not to be trustworthy etc. then he may well lose his mastery of her. If he owes her anything, perhaps it is mastery, simply because you can't have slavery without mastery.

The only need a man needs to meet in order to maintain mastery over a woman is her need for mastery.
He doesn't need to be trustworthy, and being untrustworthy would't necessarily resort in him loosing mastery.
He doesn't need to be concerned in meeting any of her needs besides basic food, shelter an so on, he doesn't need to even word about maintaining her happiness, it's more than likely and possible that he'll be able to maintain mastery despite not meeting any of needs besides the primal ones.

If you're mastered by a good man anna, you can count yourself very lucky.
But being a good man is not a prerequisite for mastery, and in our current society, where men are actively taught that desiring mastery is bad and despicable, it's more often men with no sense of honor whatsoever, who desire mastery, than man who actually care to show their honor, even to a slave...

Ishtar

_____________________________

Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to AnnaOfAramis)

Post #: 10

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/22/2011 11:28:09 PM

Kirata

Posts: 7257
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

Is he a man of honour, of his word? Does he inspire her trust and devotion and faith in him? ...

He may be a man of his word, and of honor when dealing with free, but that doesn't mean anything when it comes to dealing with slaves, because no honor is owed to them...

The bonds imposed by honor and integrity have nothing whatsoever to do with the social status of the other party.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/22/2011 11:47:04 PM >

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 11

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/22/2011 11:35:44 PM

mons

Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline

hello

After i answered your posts, i saw that freedom is the word you would use to say
you have experince a relationship with someone whom you found to be pleasing , I made
the mistake and thought it meant you wanted to get away, this is so wrong for me
to just guess instead of reading what you really meant! i do hope you both find that
one master both  if you  have wanted and waited for! This happen with women everywhere, we
must go through a bag of bad 'apples" to find the right one, but to be on the wise side , donot give all of
you,  there are signs of men whom are not right for each and every woman, mine is someone whom wants me to
fast, when it okay to wait! it works ladies it really does and as for the freedom you tasted i see! once you had
that masterful gorean man , then he turns out not to be a prince !  Is it also true that every woman whom seek a gorean
male thinks he is the one without looking at his past, or do you wait  to find someone whom has spoken the truth about him
then you will know for sure what type of man he is, or and then again do you just take his word for it alone? His word
alone is good but you must make sure, this is your life in which your entrusting his care too, it is too much to risk, an answer
will always be needed to give your trust which i think is so much! you want him for life not just a moment in time, then what if he wishes to have children! i do not know the rules of fatherhood in the gorean clan, it must be so important nothing even his slave is she equal as his children are or less as important?

mons ( it takes me a second time to reread post to fullyunderstand them it is no shame to know one limits)

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 12

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/23/2011 3:41:18 AM

Cherylmazana

Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline

Gorean men are few and far between, men who call themselves Gorean are more numerous. However being Gorean or calling yourself Gorean doesn’t men you have the ability to master a woman.

Men who have this ability can come from all walks of life and be good, bad or indifferent. The problem is that over the years I have come across more men who use this ability badly than men who use it well.

“Gorean interaction” isn’t as common as it was years ago at the height of its popularity but back then the websites were filled with horror stories. Women abused, women pimped out, women who had everything they worked for taken away and then they were caste out with nothing. And all of this was justified because they were kajira submitting to Gorean men. Slaves have nothing, slaves are owed nothing slaves are just property blah blah. All of this was the justification of teating women like slaves, not nice rose tinted sexual fantasy BDSM slaves, but genuine your just property and I will treat you as such property.

Many of the men on this site openly say being a slave is not nice, not a game, its why so many of the long term slavery based relationships develop into free companionship, because it’s hard to treat a woman you love as a slave. It’s hard to pimp out a woman you love or risk her in ways that makes there be a possibility of losing her to prison but if she is just a slave its easier if you are that type of man.

Many of us found out the hard way that lust stops you thinking, the cliché for men is that “when the balls are full the brain is empty” but I can assure you it can work exactly the same way for women. And where it can lead you can be very scary, especially when you know what your doing is wrong and destructive but you can’t help yourself because that overriding desire to please is greater than anything else even survival.

You can only really learn what freedom is once you have lost it, then you know if you want slavery or freedom, some will cling to their slavery afraid to leave the cage, needing the security of the known. Others keep an eye on the cage door, knowing it is there forever reminding themselves that it is there, waiting, while some will run out of the cage door and never stop running.

Is the devil you know better than the devil you don’t? Many choose the former and spend their lives wondering over and over why they are unhappy. Afraid to change things, afraid to see different possibilities, our society encourages us to think this way, to be content, each of us has to choose for herself what it is we need, I knew the devil I chose to reject him.

There is a quote I once read in a book that wasn’t written by John Norman, it talks of love and dreams and growing up, and how that is a child’s image of the world. I stopped being a child, I grew up, I don’t want to have my life determined for me, I like making my own decisions, I like being an equal partner in my relationship knowing I am responsible for my own destiny. And most importantly of all I like knowing I am not trapped, that I can walk away at any time, that I am in charge of my own emotions not a puppet master who can pull the strings and make me move.

Cheryl

_____________________________

Sometimes just because it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, doesn’t mean it is a duck, it could instead be a plastic replica that leads ducks to their ruin.

(in reply to AnnaOfAramis)

Post #: 13

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/23/2011 6:35:06 AM

xBullx

Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

There is a quote I once read in a book that wasn’t written by John Norman, it talks of love and dreams and growing up, and how that is a child’s image of the world. I stopped being a child, I grew up, I don’t want to have my life determined for me, I like making my own decisions, I like being an equal partner in my relationship knowing I am responsible for my own destiny. And most importantly of all I like knowing I am not trapped, that I can walk away at any time, that I am in charge of my own emotions not a puppet master who can pull the strings and make me move.

While I'm not sure about the equality statement, as I believe that equality is a predisposed illusion much like this dreaded term of slavery; I do believe that Cheryl's post and in particularly the statement I have selected are filled with an objectivity that is unencumbered by emotional overlap.

As has been mentioned countless times , in a myriad of threads before this, the kajira was actually rather small in number within the Gorean society as it was depicted by Norman. Much the same as the women in this thread believe that the Gorean type man is as limited in numbers in our society as the deeply submissive female, which is commonly considered to be the kajira, is a rarity. While I believe she exists, she is a scarcity. But the fact is, the quauntity of kajira will be in direct corrilation with the number of men actually capable and willing to master them. This discussion itself should lead us to understand this concept from a natural and philosophical perspective.

As for the man capable, willing or engrossed with such a girl, he too, at least in our society is just as uncommon. Not that either wouldn’t be more commonplace if holding a girl as such were a more socially acceptable concept, but as it stands it is much easier for all involved to not explore the depths of personal devotion from either the male or female perspective.

I’ve grown comfortable with the idea that within the woman there is both a “free woman” and a “slave girl” held within and it is her reaction to a given male that will bring out which one of these condition will become more established in her disposition.

You see this is why I have become so determined to establish the difference, at least within the Gorean philosophy between what would be a “slave” and what would be the “kajira”. As Ishtar describes the cold, callous and in fact merciless attitude a man can or would hold for a female that he has only domestic or animalistic sexual interest in, will be or at least should be on the contrary to how he will view the kajira in the way Norman’s philosophy guides us to believe.

As Norman mentioned in the books, girls would be sold again and again that they might find a man truly capably of owning more than just their body. Men in the books would give away girls in order to see such unions come to be. Consider Tarl’s reaction when he had trusted shipmates sneaking off with slaves of his that they had taken fancy too. He certainly wasn’t angry. The kajira isn’t about slavery, she’s about love, devotion and completing life’s cycle. Not all men want a girl such as a kajira, but where there are (true or not) men, there will be (true or not) women. An alpha can only peacefully co-exist with a beta. The kajira is meant to be a conquered and treasured possession. But it is certain that only a strong man should hold one, for as sure as the day exists, spoiling her or leaving her unmanaged will only provide a path to frustration and ruin.

The woman free to live as she will, that has never truly experienced the depths of emotional surrender will never actually understand it’s grasp and the addiction it can inspire. And believe me, you can spot those that are just saying they have and those that actually have. Those that have found it and lost it will either crave it so deeply they will desperately seek it again or reject it to spare themselves the pain of its loss, a loss unimaginable to those yet to experience such a condition. I would venture to say that a kajira's love for her master can even override the love she would hold for her own child. In any event these feelings cannot be mustered on their own, due to natures design, it takes that feared and beloved demon to complete the circle and bring her to personal harmony, man and not just any man, but rather a man that wants something other than a companion, other than a partner. Being a kajira is not more or less, it’s simply being what it is that is inspired within you by the one that inspires…….. your love.

It would be great for me to think that Ishtar has rejected herself as a kajira as a future possibility because no man could ever match the man that held her in such a state, but that would be my ego alone fantasizing such folly and I believe it was the circumstances around the way we ended that left her with such contempt for, or fear of these feelings. You see, having the skills or abilities to begin and practice a relationship of any type is often practiced and therefore easily managed, it’s the ending or the breakup that no one seeks or suspects and therefore makes no plans or practice for. Thus making it, normally, quite messy. I won’t pretend to know or understand all that she has now become as a woman, but I had seen her as she was and that sure looked real to me. While she no longer seeks to submit, I suspect that has little to do with whether she ever really could again.

Ladies, it has become my belief that this isn’t one of those things where you are born as an either or. It’s a matter of life’s direction and what falls into our paths as we travel it. All of you have the potential to be a kajira, all of you also possess the resources and capacity to blossom as a free choosing woman. That’s the unique aspect about the female disposition, nature has given you the ability to adapt more readily to a dominated or liberated circumstance than it has your male counterpart. It’s a survival mechanism, a social mechanism or whatever you wish to define it as, none the less it is an ability you have been blessed with. I believe the best thing is to face who you are, understand who you are and thereby allow youself to embrace the whole woman and not simply the most convenient aspects of who you can be.

So run from mastery if you must. But, is it mastery that you are actually avoiding?

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

Post #: 14

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/23/2011 8:10:51 AM

AnnaOfAramis

Posts: 509
Joined: 7/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

He may be a man of his word, and of honor when dealing with free, but that doesn't mean anything when it comes to dealing with slaves, because no honor is owed to them...

Greetings Mistress,

There is much in your post and in many of the subsequent threads that I will digest and respond to later today- but I am running out the door and did not wish to reply hastily, but would rather give them the thought due them. However I did want to reply just to this little snippet while it was in my mind. I do not think a man owes anyone- free or otherwise- honour. Naturally, I cannot know this first hand, being neither free nor a man, so this is a guess- but from what I have read in the books and what I have encountered among men, is that they owe honour to themselves and themselves alone. A man doesn't measure himself according to women- either Free Women or kajirae. A man measures himself according to his own measurements.

Well wishes,
anna

< Message edited by AnnaOfAramis -- 10/23/2011 8:12:46 AM >

_____________________________

“I refuse to be the leader. I want a man ... always over me. His will, his pleasure, his desire, his life, his work, his sexuality the touchstone, the command, my pivot."~Anaiis Nin

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 15

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/23/2011 8:54:18 AM

xBullx

Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline

-fast reply- (for me anyway)

I suspect it would also be important to add, that even during the years prior to her release it wasn't always apples and roses for Ishtar or I. It was in fact mastery and her response to it that got her through those less than desirable times.

At a certain point (this point will remain confidential to her and I) I came to the conclusion that I wasn't the master for Ishtar. While she responded to me and rather well if I do say so myself, I had hoped she knew full well of all the special circumstances that would be important for her to respect and understand if she were to come and remain mine. And while she surely appeared to me to be working hard at living up to those expectation it became obvious to me that this wasn't going to work for a girl with her very strong personality and personal needs.

It wasn't that I had grown to dislike her or found her displeasing. I had just came to the conclusion that, after getting to really know Ishtar, her personality wouldn't mix in my home long term, in the way I wanted things to be anyway. I was gone to much and her competitive nature made her a challenge when I was gone. If she had not been a foreign national, if we had had more time-together, in the flesh to explore the relationship prior to her making such a huge move and commitment, if I had been as wise as this experience has made me I suspect things would have been different to begin with as well.

I had considered that I could have worked to drive Ishtar into a deeper state of mastery and would hopefully overcome her resistance to certain issues, but I realize that if this risk failed I would actually make things even worse and the outcome would most likely have still been the same, apart from her contempt for me would most likely surpass her willingness to move on if we had went further.

While it is impossible to know for sure if I made the correct decision, I did what I thought, what I hoped was best for all. I suspect time will tell, but it would be foolish to assume one girl's less than desirable outcome with the effects my mastery is no reason to condemn the concept, deny it's plausibility or to abort the process entirely, if at all; even for that girl. Mastery is not a negative, in fact its proper implementation for those desiring such is quite possibly the apex of human male/female interaction.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to xBullx)

Post #: 16

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/23/2011 11:00:25 AM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

quote:

He may be a man of his word, and of honor when dealing with free, but that doesn't mean anything when it comes to dealing with slaves, because no honor is owed to them...

from what I have read in the books and what I have encountered among men, is that they owe honour to themselves and themselves alone. A man doesn't measure himself according to women- either Free Women or kajirae. A man measures himself according to his own measurements.

You and Kirata are right. The way I phrased it isn't correct, and I'm struggling with actually putting into words what I mean.

I know honor isn't something that's externally determined, but that's also exactly what I mean.
A man's honor is something he holds himself, which in large determines how he interacts with other people.

You said anna, that discovering if a man is honorable would enable a slave to be convinced of how he would threat her and create a situation in which she knows whether he's the right man or not.
And while that may be true in part (and certainly a large part) what I'm trying to say is that it's in no way a guarantee a mastered woman gets, precisely because she falls in a different class than free do.

The way a man behaves honorable towards the free he interacts with isn't a direct reflection on how he interacts with property he interacts with. The way he interacts with other property he has isn't even a direct reflection on how he'll interact with mastered women he owns, though it's often a more clear indicator.

Because disposition towards free and kajira are so different, the honor he has in dealing with free only gives a woman a suggestion of how he might interact with her, but it can just as well be that he chooses to behave entirely different with her, and even in ways he'd consider himself to be dishonorable if he had the same behavior towards free, the same rules simple don't apply.

And easy example of this is how he behaves towards free is they anger him, versus how he'd behave towards a slave that angers him. Analyzing his behavior with the free can give you some clues as to what may anger him with a slave, or how he may deal with it, but in the end it's a totally different dynamic and thus a totally different reaction. He may be the type of man that would never even raise his voice towards a free person, but who easily bellows towards an errant slave.
So while how he values his honor may give you certain clues, you'd still don't know until after he masters you, and after choice is removed from the equation.
In the end, your still going fully from faith and speculation, and don't get certainty, not even if you've determined him to be an honorable man before submitting.

Ishtar

_____________________________

Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to AnnaOfAramis)

Post #: 17

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/23/2011 11:24:16 AM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

As Ishtar describes the cold, callous and in fact merciless attitude a man can or would hold for a female that he has only domestic or animalistic sexual interest in, will be or at least should be on the contrary to how he will view the kajira in the way Norman’s philosophy guides us to believe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

I believe it was the circumstances around the way we ended that left her with such contempt for, or fear of these feelings.

//

it would be foolish to assume one girl's less than desirable outcome with the effects my mastery is no reason to condemn the concept, deny it's plausibility or to abort the process entirely

I don't have contempt for mastery, nor do I deny it's plausibility (if anything I acknowledge more than ever how easily it's possible). I wouldn't try to talk a single woman who craves it out of seek ing it. In fact, I'd most likely encourage them, especially if they have a half-assed understanding of what they are getting themselves into.

But your top quote most clearly answers anna's original question of why I would run from mastery:
Prior to mastery commencing, there is no way for a woman to know whether or not the man that holds her will take her to the highs of being held as the ultimate goal of the kajira "the love master/love slave" or whether she will be held as nothing more than a domestic animal to satisfy his animalistic needs, while being cared for less than one does most common household pets.

In the end, whether she's held as a "love slave" or as less than an animal, or anything in between those two, has no bearing on the bond of mastery under which she is held. If she's mastered, she'll be stuck regardless, regardless of happiness or misery, regardless of being loved or hated, regardless of being cared for or neglected, regardless of being allowed to self actualize or of being repressed, regardless of the good or the bad.

Like I've said before: if I had the guarantee of only being mastered by a good man, and being or becoming his love slave and all that entails, I'd have no qualm seeking mastery again, if not eventually.
However, I have no such guarantee, and the chance of other things happening is much higher than that of a desirable outcome -at least for me.
Thus, I have no interest in making the gamble, knowing the price of the ticket, and knowing that loosing doesn't mean no price, but a painfully horrible price. I've have in my current live, too much too loose, and no longer posses disposable assets I can freely gamble with.

Other women, in other situations, should not take my current disposition as one of advising against seeking mastery, but merely take it as testimony that happy endings are by no means guaranteed.

Ishtar

_____________________________

Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to xBullx)

Post #: 18

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/23/2011 4:23:33 PM

AnnaOfAramis

Posts: 509
Joined: 7/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

A man may need to gain a woman's trust in order to have her agree to be close enough to him while he sets out to master her, but he does not need to maintain it in order to maintain mastery over her, once he's got it.

Greetings Mistress, I'm not so sure that this would be true for me. Trust is a pretty important part of mastery- at least for me. It can be broken quite a number of times without it affecting mastery... but if it were constant, if it were big things, then I would imagine that it could change my perception of the man, and that that change could cause a lack of respect or some other feeling which could cause a girl to become unmastered? I suspect too, that for every girl, what is needed to maintain mastery over her would be different... and it isn't like something that once it's accomplished it's done with... it's an ongoing process, if a man is to hold a girl, then he has to actively continue to master her- whatever it is that that entails for that girl.

quote:

what I'm trying to say is that it's in no way a guarantee a mastered woman gets, precisely because she falls in a different class than free do.

The way a man behaves honorable towards the free he interacts with isn't a direct reflection on how he interacts with property he interacts with. The way he interacts with other property he has isn't even a direct reflection on how he'll interact with mastered women he owns, though it's often a more clear indicator. .....So while how he values his honor may give you certain clues, you'd still don't know until after he masters you, and after choice is removed from the equation. In the end, your still going fully from faith and speculation, and don't get certainty, not even if you've determined him to be an honorable man before submitting.

quote:

You can have all the faith in the world, founded or unfounded, but don't count that faith as certainty.
You are taking a huge gamble, no matter what type of man you think he is, or how well you think you know him. In the end, he owes you nothing if he gets tired of you.

It is true that a girl can't count anything as a certainty. But isn't that the risk we take in any relationship, be it free, mastered, or vanilla? Don't we always put our heart on the line and have to take a leap of faith whenever we love someone? At some point, one just has to trust and hope for the best. Life rarely comes with any guarantees. I realize the consequences are greater in a mastered situation. I suppose a woman has to figure out if that is a risk worth taking for her or not... and if she's not careful the decision will be made for her.

Well wishes,
anna

_____________________________

“I refuse to be the leader. I want a man ... always over me. His will, his pleasure, his desire, his life, his work, his sexuality the touchstone, the command, my pivot."~Anaiis Nin

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 19

RE: Running from Mastery - 10/23/2011 4:42:44 PM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

Trust is a pretty important part of mastery- at least for me. It can be broken quite a number of times without it affecting mastery... but if it were constant, if it were big things, then I would imagine that it could change my perception of the man, and that that change could cause a lack of respect or some other feeling which could cause a girl to become unmastered? I suspect too, that for every girl, what is needed to maintain mastery over her would be different... and it isn't like something that once it's accomplished it's done with... it's an ongoing process, if a man is to hold a girl, then he has to actively continue to master her- whatever it is that that entails for that girl.

It is an ongoing process, but the process that needs to be ongoing is the maintenance of the addition the woman has to the man mastering her.
Like with any other addiction, the "positive" things which first draws a person to get addicted doesn't need to remain present to sustain the addiction once it's established.

Because a mastered woman looses her capability to be self determined, the man rather easily can transform her list of priorities in him into something foreign to her original preferences. Something like that obviously wouldn't happen over night, but it's very feasible over time.

It's not only a matter of what is needed to master a specific woman may be different from other women, it's also a case of what's needed to master a specific woman can be changed by her master over time.

If a man holds a woman in totalitarian mastery, he can quite literally take her to just about any direction he wants. How long it will take to change her sufficiently enough so that certain of her old standards for him would become non-existing depends on the woman, and the nature of the standard.
Obviously, most men wouldn't care to so fundamentally change a woman that's she no longer resembles the woman he choose to master to begin with, because if he disapproved of who she was to that extend, he'd probably not even bother to set out to master her in the first place. But if he'd want to do it, and has the skill and the patience, it's most definitely possible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

It is true that a girl can't count anything as a certainty. But isn't that the risk we take in any relationship, be it free, mastered, or vanilla? Don't we always put our heart on the line and have to take a leap of faith whenever we love someone?

Yes of course, except that when talking about mastery, a woman doesn't just put her heart on the line. She puts on the line her whole self, her life, her passions, her dreams, her self development, her psyche, her sanity, her body, her self determination, her freedom and ultimately, her life.
The possible losses a mastered woman faces if things go far exceed those of a broken heart.

A mastered woman, because she gives up choice and self determination, will also necessarily be much less capable of walking away from a bad situation.
In any relationship, we put our heart on the line, but in relationship among free, one can much more easily take action to either direct the relationship away from negatives, or by walking away.

Ishtar

_____________________________

Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to AnnaOfAramis)

Post #: 20

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