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RE: Why? - 11/7/2011 11:22:40 AM   
starshineowned


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From: Texas
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I won't bother trying to find any statistics but I just want to point out a long glimpse back and then forward to present. Mankinds own history has shown that women on a high scale around the world were kept in check by men, and I'm quite sure they along the course of humanity had their staunch females that stood up or stood their ground as well as weaker men. Women have come to more equal grounds but we sure the heck didn't start out that way until men let it be so.

starshine


_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Why? - 11/7/2011 7:36:14 PM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1072
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
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Yes,

We all know women didn't start out on a level playing field...it was a battle to gain freedoms over the years.   I was asking though, for something that indicated women on the whole were submissive, more so then men.   That was a broad sweeping comment, I was hoping for something that stated it was so black and white.

Women, today, not yesterday or years before, have proven themselves time and again, not only in the work place.  I don't feel women are the same as they were 20 yrs ago, I don't see it going into reverse mode.  Today, we have many examples of women in powerful positions, just as we can name a few men who could use a bit more testosterone.  It's not as cut and dry as making the statement from earlier, that women are submissive by nature, because not all are, nor do they wish to be.


_____________________________

"Harry Potter is all about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight, is all about how important it is to have a boyfriend"
--- Stephen King

(in reply to starshineowned)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Why? - 11/8/2011 2:47:11 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6914
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

So while you may not be free because an individual man has made that choice, you're still free by the grace of men Lisa.


Sheesh, cap that thing before you cover everything in drivel.

You don't get it. You're not supposed to. You're a slave. The day you do get it, really get it, you may find you aren't one anymore, collar or no. Perhaps it takes maturity or experience, perhaps it takes insight, or perhaps only a few people have it in them. I haven't a clue.

Men get away with it, because we're biologically hardwired to kill and die to preserve all that is worth living for, to struggle and overcome or die trying, to bend our environment to our will lest it break us, and in so doing imperil that which we hold dear. Women, whether biologically or not, are usually more inclined to preserve life, to adapt and persevere, to compromise. They are, in any practical and societal sense, of immeasurable value. One man is enough to carry on a whole people. One woman is not. So we get the risk taking behavior, the aggression, the drive to challenge, conquer and control. Because we're disposable.

That directed aggression, curbed in most modern societies to facilitate domestication of the human species, is why a man used to doing what he feels like is more likely to succeed at preventing someone from using physical force at taking it away from him. It's not that most men are free. It's just that most men have to be led into their cage, rather than pushed, or else they tend to raise the ante beyond what their captivity is worth to whoever, because instinct gives them responses that respect the fact that they're disposable. Women, for whatever reason, are more likely to allow themselves to be pushed into the cage, not risking their intrinsic value until it's too late to get back out of the cage.

Culture is an excellent cage. That's one of the reasons we have Gor in the first place. There's no reason to have a violent oppression of women when they so readily oppress themselves. And no reason to oppress men, either, who also readily oppress themselves. Humans are easy to domesticate, and since the French Revolution, we've made excellent progress at turning both genders into livestock, as well as eradicating freedom. The difference is, nobody holds the collar anymore, so it'll take more than a guillotine to take the head off this beast. This is all also evident in the books, but it's apparently unpleasant for some to consider it.

Hey, sure, we could have men and women fighting each other in a literal sense. That has been extensively explored in radical feminist fiction. It's not plausible, though, and the outcome is by definition not favorable to a majority of the men that participate, if even favorable to any. Still, if you'd like to imagine a maledom fantasy world as a plausible scenario, don't let me stop you. But, really, all it ever takes was for enough women to notice a few of their options, which is kind of the point: confining thought patterns is always a more powerful strategy than violence in the long run. Japan used that whole 'underexposure' strategy successfully for ages, and Ms. Franco penned an understanding of the principle in the European late Renaissance, while Labor used it in the UK to break up the suffrage movement (it still succeeded, but the move was more spot-on than any plan they've had for anything else lately; then again, votes were in the balance).

This genie ain't going back into the bottle, no matter where you rub it.

Hopefully, that didn't clear anything up.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Why? - 11/8/2011 4:27:31 PM   
Maahsatti


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Hi Lisa,

I am going to try and put my thoughts to word without sounding redundant and for me that is hard...lol.

A long time ago I confused my natural feminine urges and wants with being submissive.
It took me a long time and many many trials and errors to figure out my mistakes and where I was so confused. I knew inside I was not slave material so to speak, as I value my independence to much, I always have and a lot of times did not realize it.

I personally want and need strength and responsibility in a man. A man who values honor, truth and accountability. I need to know I am stable and cared for in my life beyond my own ability. I also need the man I am with to feel he can count on and rely on me for the same securities in his life, beyond his own ability, when needed.

I have no desire to run or rule the roost, I definately need for the man to do so, I just ask to have my opinions and feelings heard and considered before he makes his mind
up.

Now I USE to confuse those desires for wanting Mastery or to be Mastered. I now understand it is not but just my natural need as a (woman) to have a Partner who knows and understands his birth right and lot in life.
JMO. I hope I have not confused you any.

Take care,
Maahsatti


_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Why? - 11/9/2011 4:10:14 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Greetings

quote:

I have yet to find any statistics that back this up.  As a whole, the numbers appear greater for weak men and more dominant women.  The small number of men and women who are striving to change the balance (men returning to the stronger sex), seem to be over run by those who have no problem with the current status.


I do not have statistics. However what I say is based on history, yes woman are used to different things today and I definitely think that our current level of education and freedoms play a part in maintaining such freedoms, however that do not mean that our past or the genetics of our gender suddenly vanish. For example in many tribes and societies bride stealing was common, women where stolen from their homes and force wed into other tribes and they adapted to their new environment. Allot of studies show that women are often more adaptive to new situations than men, I do not see this as a weakness but it do mean that for many women adapting to a sub optimal situation is often a preferable option to death or even risking death.

In my favorite fantasy books there is a description on the difference between men and women that I love and which I think illustrates this point very well. Now I do not remember the quote word for word but it go something like this. Men are like an oak tree, strong and proud, it do not bend to the wind and never surrenders until it is broken but when it is broken it never get back up. A woman is like a willow tree, it bends to the will of the wind, but even the strongest storm can not break it, the willow just bend with the storm and once it is past she raises again unharmed.

There have also been studies done, like one where the scientists took a number of small toddlers and put them in a room where there where a string the babies could pull and a piece of candy would fall out. After a while when the babies had gotten used to the candy being there when they pulled the string the scientists stopped the candy from falling when the child pulled on the string. Most of the girl babies would pull on the string a few times and then give up and sit down and cry while most of the boy babies would pull on that string like mad and getting aggressive

quote:

Goreans, and those who think along the same lines, are not the majority.
.

This is true, but this is not my point. My point is that even if it where a majority of Gorean thinking men the cost of trying to enforce a Gorean like society today would be to high. I agree that more women than men would be willing to surrender, but enough would be willing to fight that it is no longer in men's power to take freedom from women in general.

quote:

I believe there are women who would fight to the death, rather then give up freedom.  Just as there are men who would do the same.


I agree.

Be Well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Why? - 11/9/2011 4:16:11 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline
Greetings

quote:

I won't bother trying to find any statistics but I just want to point out a long glimpse back and then forward to present. Mankinds own history has shown that women on a high scale around the world were kept in check by men, and I'm quite sure they along the course of humanity had their staunch females that stood up or stood their ground as well as weaker men. Women have come to more equal grounds but we sure the heck didn't start out that way until men let it be so.


The problem I have with statements like this is that it sounds like you are saying that men one day woke up and out of the infinite mercy of their hearts decided to give women equal rights. The truth however is that while for example with women's right to vote a man signed the document, women fought for that, women applied pressure, men did not decide to give women freedom, women took it. Yes women tend to not do things as violently as men, well most of the time, but women campaigned, fought and risked own life and limb to win freedom, and many placed women actually did turn to violence to get the right to vote and other rights and while I do not mean to sound rude, I think your statement sort of dishonors those brave women who risked everything so we can have the freedoms we enjoy today by making it sound like men just gave women's freedom to us like handing out cookies at Christmas and that irk me a bit.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to starshineowned)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Why? - 11/9/2011 5:12:19 AM   
starshineowned


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Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
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Greetings..

I have no more respect for any woman that died within history to try and change things than I do for any man that has done the same thing fighting for their respective countries. Seriously going down the wrong venue with that analysis.

History was more than a day..so to was any change that gave women more voice or rights, and to say that it was just women fighting for anything or even taking it. While that certainly did happen..I'd have to add on in conjunction with that ..that men in charge did listen and found value and purpose of it as well.

This for me isn't really about women being given more rights or involvement in society though as much as it is a over all view of women in general. What women have today is like the government ..to big for anyone or even few to really change. It has taken on a life of its own even out of the control of men who are now to lost in the shuffle work. Take that structure away though as I said in the "what if" game, and I seriously don't see society setting itself back up again with women enjoying the same rights or luxuries they currently have, and fighting and this taking it process will probably have to transpire all over again over the course of many years to come.

Adding on to again..Why is it that women had to fight or take anything to get to where they are today? How come throughout time it was even required of women to struggle for any place hold they currently enjoy? I can't believe that women today are any more strong willed, or determined than women of ancient past.
starshine

< Message edited by starshineowned -- 11/9/2011 5:42:28 AM >


_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Why? - 11/9/2011 6:30:36 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Greetings

quote:

I have no more respect for any woman that died within history to try and change things than I do for any man that has done the same thing fighting for their respective countries. Seriously going down the wrong venue with that analysis.


I am not asking you to have more respect for a woman who have fought, risked and died for what she believed in than a man who did the same, where have I said such a woman are more worthy of respect than a man? I have said that to afford such women no respect like you do is wrong.

quote:

History was more than a day..so to was any change that gave women more voice or rights, and to say that it was just women fighting for anything or even taking it. While that certainly did happen..I'd have to add on in conjunction with that ..that men in charge did listen and found value and purpose of it as well.


Nothing happens in a vacuum, off course there where men involved in the process, but that do not mean that men where the whole process. Look for example at the situation for black Americans in the 1950's and 1960's many white saw thing from the black's perspective, many white politicians listened, but the hell the black fought for equal rights and no the white politicians would not have listened unless the black population had fought so hard. It is called pressure, the women fighting for freedom applied pressure, they changed society, yes there where men involved, I have never claimed otherwise but that do not mean that the men just gave freedom to women, women stood up and demanded freedom, they fought for it, bled for it and would not go away until they where heard they got nothing for free.

quote:

This for me isn't really about women being given more rights or involvement in society though as much as it is a over all view of women in general. What women have today is like the government ..to big for anyone or even few to really change. It has taken on a life of its own even out of the control of men who are now to lost in the shuffle work. Take that structure away though as I said in the "what if" game, and I seriously don't see society setting itself back up again with women enjoying the same rights or luxuries they currently have, and fighting and this taking it process will probably have to transpire all over again over the course of many years to come.


Do you think women are the only one protected by society. I at times hear this argument on the Gor forums, but women only have power because society protect them, well the same is true for men. Without a society it would be anarchy, it would be the right of the strongest and whoever had the biggest guns would take whatever they pleased, men or women would fall prey to that. Also let me point out that there is no problem for a woman to wield a gun, things have changed, the strongest is no longer necessarily the one with the biggest musculature but the one with the tools and weapons.

quote:

Adding on to again..Why is it that women had to fight or take anything to get to where they are today? How come throughout time it was even required of women to struggle for any place hold they currently enjoy? I can't believe that women today are any more strong willed, or determined than women of ancient past.


Allot of societies in the ancient past had a pretty strong place for women. In Viking society while women where not equal they had inheritance rights and allot to say in society. In ancient Celtic cultures you had female warriors and while the men where often the leaders the women rules the households. Allot of the subjugation of women in Western came with Christianity. Now I am not saying other parts of the world have not had subjugated women or that Christianity is bad, there is allot of good to find in that religion. However Christianity present women as weak, flawed and evil. For centuries none would challenge this as religious views where so strong but eventually as Christianity lessened in general power women begun to question. The point is that in many societies even if women have had less power than men they have not been powerless nor unappreciated, Christianity painted women as the evil temptress weak to the influences of Satan. It is not that women in the last century that begun the women's liberation process where smarter than those that came before, but they had been pressed so much under the heel that they eventually fought back. There where no reason for Viking women to rebel, they had rights and where appreciated, Christian women however had centuries of being seen as a necessary evil behind them and now begun to question if that where really right.

I wish you well.



_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to starshineowned)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Why? - 11/9/2011 7:21:47 AM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
Greetings..

How have I not afforded women respect Mistress Nephandi? Simply because I believe and see the world from a different view than you do?


For whatever the case this is my personal view of the world and really doesn't have diddly to do with M/s or Gor any other such. It is simply where I feel women are in the grand scheme of things. This is a impass for me so I won't post any further on this subject in here but if it bares anymore discussion I will resort to messaging if there is a need.

starshine


_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Why? - 11/9/2011 6:32:39 PM   
Terrah


Posts: 372
Joined: 7/5/2007
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quote:

nephandi Quoted: Allot of the subjugation of women in Western came with Christianity. Now I am not saying other parts of the world have not had subjugated women or that Christianity is bad, there is allot of good to find in that religion. However Christianity present women as weak, flawed and evil.


I know in the heat of the moment perhaps you got on a roll and said this without putting enough thought into it, perhaps you believe it, I don't know, but to rebut this just a bit, I would like to say that it is entirely religion and not just Christianity involved here. To me Christianity involves no sect religions at all, that was man's doing in his heart trying to bring about a change for people in general and involved their viewpoints of what they determined was in the Bible to begin with, hence they started religions to further their own needs of being able to draw together a number of like minded people and begin another religion; one they decided would best serve God in their own viewpoints, they are the one's who had changed history in that fashion to equate women as this or that, no where in the Bible does it say women are evil, in fact it says the opposite there.

As a Christian, I do not hold to any particular religion, those are made up by man not God, I follow the Bible and what it reads as.... OK now we all know the Bible was written again by man to give a testament to God's work and have a reference for others to follow to remain in their beliefs of what God's will is. We could all be very wrong one way or another, there might not be a God even according to some, but let's not make all of this out into a religious debate eh? It's just your statement there nephandi I had a hard time with and decided to throw in my two cents worth, none of this is meant to say you are wrong or anyone else is either, nor do I care to debate a religion vs Christianity debate or take off any of this discussion to this point.

Even though I do feel that women were used, yes used, not the fight they endured to get the vote, that was given for two reasons, first of all having more to vote for a candidate would be good in any election, or being able to get votes for important legislation certainly, most women back then voted the way their husbands did after all, so having two such votes instead of one certainly manipulated the face of America now didn't it?  Secondly, the vote women got via "Sufferage" was not just the ability to vote, it was for a more equal right to ensure the woman when her man died it did not go to the state, and no one could come along and take her property after her spouse died because she had no right to it. Also the woman would not be subject for the man to kick her out simply because he wanted out of the relationship without the woman getting anything. Before women had rights there were many things they were made to endure simply because they had no right to them at all. In most divorce cases, the man got the right to the children because the woman had no employment other than menial labor, and such labor was not enough to ensure the upbringing of the children where the man had most of the money and ability to raise said children in a more suitable atmosphere, hence they had custody of the children not the woman.

Another thing women suffered from greatly was the civil war. Men died, women had no right to property, this made a huge change in land development when other men knew this and took complete advantage of it by kicking women off the property men owned, not being land owners nor the right to be land owners, they often lost everything. Ah, this is even a worse condition than those of slaves who now had more rights as being freed than a woman did having no man who could own property. Obviously, this was a small point in the woman's suffrage movement which made it possible for women to begin to excel in the world now with or without a man at their sides. I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings about black slavery at all, but history is history.

Thanks

Terrah


_____________________________

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyhow." (John Wayne)

(in reply to starshineowned)
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