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Why? - 10/26/2011 6:45:04 AM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1072
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline 		Good Morning...

It's a balmy 22 degrees, too cold for outside work, so here I sit.

Something has been on my mind, but I haven't had the time to form a post about it, hopefully this comes across semi intelligently. 

You can find scores of pages dedicated to why a slavish woman seeks a Gorean man, but why would a woman who doesn't desire slavery, also seek the same man?  

What makes a woman crave to be near a Gorean man, yet not in a collar?  As his companion?  Does she have the same internal drive as a slave, needing a strong alpha male in her world?  I haven't read the last book, so maybe this is explained and I missed it.   In the pages I did read, however, it was plainly illustrated that Norman described a planet run by males, that women, all women, were at the mercy of men.  Even the so called free ones. 

I realize we don't live on Gor, so please, lets not turn this into a discussion about the fantasy aspect.  There are women, on this very forum, who either came into this as a free woman, or were once slaves and are now free, I am hoping to hear what motivates them to remain around Gorean men.  Since the majority of bandwidth is filled with the slaves aspect and what they desire or need...I thought it would be interesting to hear from another perspective.

Lisa

< Message edited by AlwaysLisa -- 10/26/2011 6:47:50 AM >

_____________________________

"Harry Potter is all about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight, is all about how important it is to have a boyfriend"
--- Stephen King
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Why? - 10/26/2011 10:33:15 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		I think that many women (those who didn’t come through the reading the books as a teen and liking the sci-fi side) come into Gor looking for a strong man, they call it looking for a master, but it’s quite obvious that mastery has limits on it.

It’s the same with vanilla women, they are looking for a strong man, and they do find them there are many more vanilla men than Gorean men out there and it’s stupid to say that only Gorean men have these traits. But they never post in these forums so you never hear of them.

The reason why the women in the books were ruled by men is most likely the same reason why women in the Middle East are ruled by men, custom. Here in the West customs have changed and as the world becomes a smaller place those customs are being worn away by constant interaction and the questioning of those customs, we can see it in action already.

I think these days for me the Gorean forums are more than a habit than anything, I am not looking for a man I have a good one, and I enjoy the interaction and discussions, and I used to (before the financial side of life went mad) enjoy meeting people who called themselves Gorean and discussing the books and philosophy.

For me now the books have become more about the philosophy, the questioning of freedom and society, of how society shapes you without your knowledge. About the type of person you are and knowing yourself and what you need. They are not about the sci fi adventure they were at 15, the sexual adventure they were at 18, the internet awakening they were at 30.

They changed with me as I changed because people change, I am not the same person I was 10 years ago, and most certainly not the same person I was 20 years ago, the characters in the books change, life changed them.

What we have to be wary of though is that life and age doesn’t bring with it rigidity and a un-williness to change. When our ideas become fixed in stone and there is only the one true way …our way then we have let ourselves become stagnant and rigid.

And that is the end of all growth.

Cheryl


_____________________________

Sometimes just because it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, doesn’t mean it is a duck, it could instead be a plastic replica that leads ducks to their ruin.

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Why? - 10/27/2011 4:37:45 AM   
Terrah


Posts: 372
Joined: 7/5/2007
Status: offline 		Hello Lisa,

Since I am a very strong woman, I tend to dominant everything around me, but my man. I am drawn to him because of respect first. Respect is given freely by me, when I first met Tavares, we talked about small things, some desires in life, what we were about, what we feel is right and wrong etc like most people do. I did not have an opinion about him exactly until one day I was driving in my truck, going to meet this other man (we were friends) and he didn't like it. He didn't object, but he didn't like it. I guess that is the moment I respected him fully. He said what he thought and felt, to me it takes a real man to do that with inhibitions. In my opinion.
Secondly, he has strength, not physical so much, but strength of character, he does what he says and means it. He knows his path and follows it. I liked that in him a great deal. Again a real man. imho.
Thirdly, he has character, he doesn't mind stating he made a mistake, or he wants something, he is honest as the day is long and forthright. He is filled with satisfaction in what he does and knows his own mind.
Forth, he is honorable. If he says he will do something he does it. Not always to my expectations but he does do it. He is loyal and smart about the things he knows about.
To me these are qualities I have seen in Gorean men who I do respect and even admire. I knew he was Gorean the first time I saw him. We didn't speak of it just then, but I felt it... that inner strength and determination fueled by honesty and integrity I find in so few men in general.
I want to be with a Gorean man as his Fw because it suits me down to my core.
We do discuss the books, ideas, ideals, more so we discuss life and how we view it on any particular day. He puts up with my dominant side and respects it because I too have the same qualities he does. He leads me and I follow him. He is a particular man who can dominate me. As far as seeing another Gorean man I would follow, doubtfully. I think only one comes around in a lifetime and I found mine.
He leads me, never has a man ever done that with me, nor would I allow it. However with him it came in time with love and devotion, learning his mind, and trusting his decisions, allowing myself to see he is good and right. Whew there's a step right there. He is what I have sought out in a mate, one who is stronger than I am, he brings out my womanly side (since I am not nor have I ever been womanly) IE: I don't do my nails, my hair, make-up, wear dresses, or be gentle or submissive like. That's not me, it can be a part of me at rare times, and when it is, I have a habit now of dressing to his colors, not so we match, but so we enhance our couple look. (Hard to explain that one) I don't wear plaid if he is wearing stripes I reckon.
It's not an attraction because he is Gorean, it is an attraction because he is the man he is which happens to be Gorean.
At the time, I was only attracted to me who were Gorean in nature, the power they have inside is very enticing to me. Their beliefs and strengths match my own, so we are of like mind. I also was looking for a man who could bring out trust, adoration for his beliefs, and more than anything be his own man.
I hope this helps you out a bit in your quest for an answer. I tried to explain it best I could, but would answer any other questions you might have about it.

Terrah


_____________________________

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyhow." (John Wayne)

(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Why? - 10/27/2011 7:39:22 AM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings All,

I think Cheryl and Terrah covered quite a bit of the territory in explaining why a woman who does not seek slavery still desires a Masterful man...so to speak.

Like Terrah, I am a very domineering woman, but I still desire, need and crave a man who is more so then myself. I desire the security that a strong minded, willed and strong spirited man can offer.

There are indeed a lot of men in this world who have all the traits and qualities that a Gorean man has, without being Gorean and I am at a point in my life where it is infact the strength, honor, self assured confident man I seek whether he is vanilla or Gorean.

I believe it is a part of who we are spiritually, mentally and perhaps even genetically as women, to want and desire a take charge man who honors his responsibility in life and honors his rightful birth order, IMO.

Take care,
Maah

P.S. Hey Terrah, I finally got my own home, a cute little 3 bedroom. Still in Des Moines, just 9 blocks from my Sis...lol...Hope you and Tavares are well.

< Message edited by Maahsatti -- 10/27/2011 7:41:21 AM >

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to Terrah)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Why? - 10/27/2011 12:56:04 PM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

In the pages I did read, however, it was plainly illustrated that Norman described a planet run by males, that women, all women, were at the mercy of men. Even the so called free ones.


I know this portion of your post has been discussed at length quite some time ago with of course varied positions but what was illustrated in the books I personally believe holds true for us as well "If" men were so inclined to take it to that point.  I however, sincerely doubt it would look as romantic and enticing as the world of Gor.

starshine


_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Why? - 10/27/2011 1:13:23 PM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa

In the pages I did read, however, it was plainly illustrated that Norman described a planet run by males, that women, all women, were at the mercy of men.  Even the so called free ones. 



I'm amazed that you don't seem to realize that the same thing applies here on Earth.

_____________________________


Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Why? - 10/28/2011 8:20:33 AM   
Terrah


Posts: 372
Joined: 7/5/2007
Status: offline 		Hey Maah!!!

Yeah we are doing well in fact. The summer was filled with customers and the new cabins we remodeled have been a huge hit thankfully. Course I thought they would be they are very rustic and up here in the north it goes with the name of course, and the landscape.

I hope you are doing well, I hope Iowa is not a place you cannot adjust to, and the house sounds great, here's a hint, ya got 3 bedrooms?? Is that an invitation I hope?? lol I'll write to you personally soon.. have a great day.

Terrah


_____________________________

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyhow." (John Wayne)

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Why? - 10/29/2011 7:33:09 AM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1072
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline
quote:

I'm amazed that you don't seem to realize that the same thing applies here on Earth.


Really?  In the context of what Norman wrote about, I don't see it, not here in the country I live.  Women, kidnapped and turned into slaves, because a man felt that is where they belonged.  Norman made it clear for his storyline, that even if a woman was "free", she was only there because men allowed it.  You see that happening alot where your from?

I do see that in many professional careers, men will earn higher salaries, even today.  But I look at the bigger picture, women have made progress in so many fields, where once it was considered a "man-only" achievement.   I don't see men coming in to send them packing back to the kitchen. 

Could you give examples of how you feel women are being stripped of status, rank and career, to be under the boots of men?   ( In your own area of personal experience, not what is happening in some third world countries, as they have yet to achieve the same growth and are still struggling with women making small amounts of progress and are not on the same level )




_____________________________

"Harry Potter is all about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight, is all about how important it is to have a boyfriend"
--- Stephen King

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Why? - 10/29/2011 8:35:42 AM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline 		I didn't mean that women in our current society are only free because specific, individual men decide to allow it -like it's on Gor- I meant that women in our current society are only free because men as a whole have decided to allow it.

Women have gained their freedoms because men have allowed it so -after the women fought for it, of course, but still because the men allowed it.

Imagine this for a second Lisa: what would happen if all men in America would tomorrow jointly decided that they no longer wanted women to be free and where going to implement Gorean rules here? How many women would remain free in the end?
What if women did the same thing, and decided that men where no longer going to remain free? How many women would remain free in the end?

Now, social changes obviously don't happen overnight, and a process like that -if it where to happen- would go slowly. Just like it took women a couple hundred years to slowly get rights (and I'm not talking necessarily about legal rights, much more about idealogical ones).

In the end, it all comes down to this though: women are free because men have decided to let them. Men could change their minds if they wanted to.
Men's freedom is independent from whether or not women decided to let them. Women couldn't take away men's freedom.

So while you may not be free because an individual man has made that choice, you're still free by the grace of men Lisa.

_____________________________


Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Why? - 10/29/2011 8:37:47 AM   
TheRaptorJesus


Posts: 625
Joined: 6/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

I didn't mean that women in our current society are only free because specific, individual men decide to allow it -like it's on Gor- I meant that women in our current society are only free because men as a whole have decided to allow it.

Women have gained their freedoms because men have allowed it so -after the women fought for it, of course, but still because the men allowed it.

Imagine this for a second Lisa: what would happen if all men in America would tomorrow jointly decided that they no longer wanted women to be free and where going to implement Gorean rules here? How many women would remain free in the end?
What if women did the same thing, and decided that men where no longer going to remain free? How many women would remain free in the end?

Now, social changes obviously don't happen overnight, and a process like that -if it where to happen- would go slowly. Just like it took women a couple hundred years to slowly get rights (and I'm not talking necessarily about legal rights, much more about idealogical ones).

In the end, it all comes down to this though: women are free because men have decided to let them. Men could change their minds if they wanted to.
Men's freedom is independent from whether or not women decided to let them. Women couldn't take away men's freedom.

So while you may not be free because an individual man has made that choice, you're still free by the grace of men Lisa.


So... you herped so hard that you derped, eh?

I understand some things may wet your undies a little bit, but reality will remain reality and this point will remain just as silly.


_____________________________

What if your God... were a motherfucking DINOSAUR?!

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Why? - 10/29/2011 9:27:56 AM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1072
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline
quote:

Imagine this for a second Lisa: what would happen if all men in America would tomorrow jointly decided that they no longer wanted women to be free and where going to implement Gorean rules here? How many women would remain free in the end?
What if women did the same thing, and decided that men where no longer going to remain free? How many women would remain free in the end?


I normally don't do the "what if" questions, but I will give this a go. 

Men of this planet, (as in direct conflict with Gor), don't have the backing of government or legal enforcement, or even social structure.  For the most part, due to media and other public venues,  I feel men on the whole have been emasculated on a grander scale then in the past.   Which is probably why so many women are drawn to alpha personalities, they are rare.  Another topic, for another time.   But I don't feel there is a threat of a sexual uprising, casting women to their knees and taking away all rights and privileges earned over the years.

When I asked for examples, I wasn't necessarily talking about one precise man, but a country that already had women in key power positions.  We have a woman, granted it's not one of my favorite women, in power, sitting at the same table as the President of this country.   Do you feel she is in danger of being removed and banished to the kitchen to prepare meals?  

Some countries have not allowed women the power and rank we have, so I cannot hold them as examples of men taking anything away from them, as they don't have it to begin with.

I compared Normans writing (which considering it was done during much of the feminine movement, I'm sure it added to his motivation), to women of today.  Not twenty years ago, or even further, in the country of my residence.  

"If" men wished to create an upheaval, pushing women back and stripping them of all power, I would expect to see Unicorns roaming the streets....I don't see it as reality.  Remember though, this is "my" reality, where I live, what I see and read about daily.   This may not be yours, or the countries you reside in.  As I'm sure women of  Iran would say men are in control, and I would not argue.

< Message edited by AlwaysLisa -- 10/29/2011 9:29:09 AM >

_____________________________

"Harry Potter is all about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight, is all about how important it is to have a boyfriend"
--- Stephen King

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Why? - 10/29/2011 10:38:02 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheRaptorJesus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

I didn't mean that women in our current society are only free because specific, individual men decide to allow it -like it's on Gor- I meant that women in our current society are only free because men as a whole have decided to allow it.

Women have gained their freedoms because men have allowed it so -after the women fought for it, of course, but still because the men allowed it.

Imagine this for a second Lisa: what would happen if all men in America would tomorrow jointly decided that they no longer wanted women to be free and where going to implement Gorean rules here? How many women would remain free in the end?
What if women did the same thing, and decided that men where no longer going to remain free? How many women would remain free in the end?

Now, social changes obviously don't happen overnight, and a process like that -if it where to happen- would go slowly. Just like it took women a couple hundred years to slowly get rights (and I'm not talking necessarily about legal rights, much more about idealogical ones).

In the end, it all comes down to this though: women are free because men have decided to let them. Men could change their minds if they wanted to.
Men's freedom is independent from whether or not women decided to let them. Women couldn't take away men's freedom.

So while you may not be free because an individual man has made that choice, you're still free by the grace of men Lisa.


So... you herped so hard that you derped, eh?

I understand some things may wet your undies a little bit, but reality will remain reality and this point will remain just as silly.



Ok smartass, so you don't want to take the time to comprehend her point and since you want to view the intent of her explanation with some superficial bullshit from the rule of law perspective, a rule that was fought for and is still defended by men.

So to help you along and attempt to draw you from under the rock where your present state of denial holds you, let's consider it from a more practical perspective. And from the current state of US affairs, an issue with a more legitimate and possible perspective, not to mention possibility.

What if Sharia Laws were implemented in the US. How many women do you still feel would still enjoy the freedoms they do now, freedoms that are a benefit do to the men that, for whatever reason have amended and defended these freedoms?

I suspect Ishtar is merely stating it is the realization of men over time that in order to co-exist happily with their females they do not have to legally subjugate them simply to control or to master them. In fact that is the lazy man's approach if you ask me. Additionally we men seemingly have discovered it is not necessary or productive to subjugate the more outstanding and unique qualities of women in order to live in natural harmony.

The fact is that Norman's books make this point quite well if you take the time to understand as much. You see it wasn't the legal aspect of Gorean law (the condition of legal slavery) that inspired the kajira's submission to man/men, it was her natural reaction to what he was/is, if he did in fact, behave like the man that nature intended.

On a side note a topic that also demonstrates an understanding towards this issue is: You are aware that the black slavery pre 1865 was seen to be inhuman by many "white" Americans, and in fact it was finally when political conditions in America on the whole presented themselves that these "white" Americans did something to alter this injustice, if they had not, the chance exists, however slight, that blacks might still be enslaved.

Additionally, I believe that this is an injustice that even the Gorean philosophy would side with. If you were really understanding of the philosophy that you mock, you'd get that. and take note, the Gorean philosophy and those playing Gorean online are not, in most cases, concurrent themes.


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to TheRaptorJesus)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Why? - 10/29/2011 11:04:53 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
Hey there Lisa,

Just a couple quick points.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa

But I don't feel there is a threat of a sexual uprising, casting women to their knees and taking away all rights and privileges earned over the years.


You do realize that this is a chief concern for the Muslim faith. They believe we are to permissive with our women. They sincerely want to rectify this or at least stop us from forcing our misgivings, as they see it, upon them.

In fact if you were really to hear men speak all over the world, this thought is discussed more than you might think.

quote:



When I asked for examples, I wasn't necessarily talking about one precise man, but a country that already had women in key power positions. We have a woman, granted it's not one of my favorite women, in power, sitting at the same table as the President of this country. Do you feel she is in danger of being removed and banished to the kitchen to prepare meals?


I have only one concern with women holding positions of power. That they actually consider their's is not the only perspective with which to lead/govern.

Men and women think differently, women tend to be nurturers that want to protect their children and in fact society from itself. Men tend to be more, learn it for yourself so you understand why it will kill you, oriented. It is a mixture of both that is the best answer, I personally don't believe this is a lesson our "leaders", more in particularly the female ones, have learned, and more poignantly right here in the United States.

quote:



Some countries have not allowed women the power and rank we have, so I cannot hold them as examples of men taking anything away from them, as they don't have it to begin with.


Exactly Ishtar's point. Men in those places have yet to afford or award, if you will, women in those societies additional liberties.

Additionally, while some here might believe that allowing women into a more prominent role within society is a point of growth, I doubt that this view is always the norm, even for women. Would any of the "free" women of this crowd want the "slave" hearted females to make the choice as to whether or not women should have a voice?

Tell me that if it were not for the laws created by men in the west that all you girls would feel the same sense of security that you currently enjoy. Especially with the self accountable, responsible, hard working and proactive type of modern males that you have helped produce.
The road to serfdom wasn’t constructed in a day.

quote:



I compared Normans writing (which considering it was done during much of the feminine movement, I'm sure it added to his motivation), to women of today. Not twenty years ago, or even further, in the country of my residence.


While I cannot speak from personal knowledge of Norman on this, I doubt Norman would write the first book, or any book, any different; the women's movement didn't inspire his beliefs, it only motivated his actions.

quote:



"If" men wished to create an upheaval, pushing women back and stripping them of all power, I would expect to see Unicorns roaming the streets....I don't see it as reality. Remember though, this is "my" reality, where I live, what I see and read about daily. This may not be yours, or the countries you reside in. As I'm sure women of Iran would say men are in control, and I would not argue.


Remain vigilant then. There is always someone wanting that which you believe to be yours.


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Why? - 10/29/2011 11:07:33 AM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa

"If" men wished to create an upheaval, pushing women back and stripping them of all power, I would expect to see Unicorns roaming the streets....I don't see it as reality.  Remember though, this is "my" reality, where I live, what I see and read about daily.   This may not be yours, or the countries you reside in.  As I'm sure women of  Iran would say men are in control, and I would not argue.


You claimed that women are not at the mercy of men in our cultural context.
My only disagreement with that is that they are, and it's merely less visible right now, because of the turn society has taken.

Whether or not it's likely that society may change, doesn't alter the fact that it could.
Probability of an event occurring has no baring possibility of said event occurring.

Of course women in positions of power today don't have to fear a great threat of it being taken away from them by men, by means of force. However, that doesn't changes the fact that said women achieved that position because, somewhere in history, men decided to allow them to do so. Men could also disallow women to achieve such power -however unlikely it is that they will. Women didn't allow men the power they have, women could not disallow men the power they have. That places women at the mercy of men.

You owe your freedom to vote, to choose who you marry, to raise your own children, to learn to read and write, to voice your own opinions, to not be killed at birth because you're not a heir to the family name, directly to the fact that men, in the past, have decided to allow it to be so. Women may have fought to achieve that goal, but no matter how long and hard they could/would have fought, in the end, things didn't change until men decided to allow it to change.

Like I said: women may not owe their freedom directly to the choice of an individual man. But in the end, they are very much at the mercy of men.

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 10/29/2011 11:19:23 AM >

_____________________________


Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Why? - 10/29/2011 11:36:38 AM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline 		One last thing Lisa, you seem to thing that the fact that both men and women seem to be happy with women's freedom, and that it seems to be a good thing, as a guarantee or security that things would never again change in the other direction.

That sense of security is akin to saying that a good, beneficial, productive employee is not at the mercy of their employer when it comes to job security.
The fact that a situation is a good one may make it unlikely it will change, but it doesn't change the power dynamic in the least.

In fact, the more certain parties try to forget or ignore the underlining power hierarchy that's still in place, the more likely it will become that the situation will change.

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 10/29/2011 11:37:17 AM >

_____________________________


Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Why? - 10/29/2011 3:45:23 PM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1072
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline
quote:

One last thing Lisa, you seem to thing that the fact that both men and women seem to be happy with women's freedom, and that it seems to be a good thing, as a guarantee or security that things would never again change in the other direction.


I re-read my post, never found where I stated it was all good...only that I don't feel the pendulum will swing back the way it was.  I for one enjoy being around strong men, I am the happy homemaker, content in that role, however.....I don't see the power as it used to be, with men.   No longer are women thought of as chattel, unable to have voice of their own.  Yes, this happened because women wished to be heard, but there were also men who pioneered the movement.  Regardless of how it came to be, my point was that women are no longer under control of men, nor do I think they will be, again.  There is always room for improvement, perhaps some feel women need more authority given to them, or the workplace doesn't recognize them enough.   This is not how I posed the question and I stick by my guns....women of today, in modern society, have little fear of being whipped, stripped and escorted into slavery. 

Anything "can" happen,  life does that kinda stuff.  Do I think it will, no.  Not unless men as a whole stand up and make some life altering changes.  The handful of Gorean men here and there are not the majority...sad to say.

Do you have examples of honest to goodness accounts where women in authority were forced into bondage?   Not that I wouldn't pay to see Hillary Clinton in chains, but thats another story. :) 

When I used the Gor books as examples of how Norman perceived women, and how their freedom was hanging by the whim of men, it wasn't with the intent of showing the strength of females and all they worked for.  I was speaking about having things taken away, and that, is where I say that unless we have a major upheaval in society and men find their spine, it won't happen.   Too many years at being broken down and "told" how to deal with women, by women.   Ironic isn't it...now women seem to want them back the way they were.  Hopefully, it isn't too late.


_____________________________

"Harry Potter is all about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight, is all about how important it is to have a boyfriend"
--- Stephen King

(in reply to Ishtarr)
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RE: Why? - 10/29/2011 3:54:54 PM   
AnnaOfAramis


Posts: 509
Joined: 7/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:


Do you have examples of honest to goodness accounts where women in authority were forced into bondage?


Greetings Mistress, isn't that what happens in mastery? Not forced by law or forced with chains, but yet still when a girl becomes mastered she isn't choosing to give up her authority, but it is taken away from her. I didn't choose to be mastered. And I have held positions of authority.

Well wishes,
anna

_____________________________

“I refuse to be the leader. I want a man ... always over me. His will, his pleasure, his desire, his life, his work, his sexuality the touchstone, the command, my pivot."~Anaiis Nin

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Why? - 10/29/2011 4:06:56 PM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1072
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline
quote:

Greetings Mistress, isn't that what happens in mastery? Not forced by law or forced with chains, but yet still when a girl becomes mastered she isn't choosing to give up her authority, but it is taken away from her. I didn't choose to be mastered. And I have held positions of authority.


Hello Anna...

I think, every Ying has it's Yang, just as every female, has a male she relates to on a primal level, and when those two forces come together, it works.  You were mastered by your owner because it was right, no matter how you fought it internally, it was what you were seeking, even if you didn't know it.   This is my simple outlook, and not all will agree, but I think things are made too complicated, with labels, protocols, etc. 

That said, you were not forced into bondage, you gave it up willingly.  No matter how you struggled internally, or maybe even externally with your feelings...in the end, you gave in.  

Norman had a way of making it sound romantic, amid all the struggles, and that no matter how free a woman was, if she met her match, (ying/yang), the battle was over.  The man mastered her, he won.   There still needs to be a part of the woman who allowed herself to be mastered, regardless of the reason, otherwise, it was nothing more then slavery as we know about in history, where no one was happy, there was no romance and often times the masters were weak individuals.

I think what your talking about is reacting to an emotional trigger, not so much being held against your will and forced to do his laundry.  But, that could be my line of thought, which isn't always main stream :)

< Message edited by AlwaysLisa -- 10/29/2011 4:09:58 PM >

_____________________________

"Harry Potter is all about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight, is all about how important it is to have a boyfriend"
--- Stephen King

(in reply to AnnaOfAramis)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Why? - 10/29/2011 4:08:02 PM   
AnnaOfAramis


Posts: 509
Joined: 7/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

it is the realization of men over time that in order to co-exist happily with their females they do not have to legally subjugate them simply to control or to master them. In fact that is the lazy man's approach if you ask me. Additionally we men seemingly have discovered it is not necessary or productive to subjugate the more outstanding and unique qualities of women in order to live in natural harmony.


Greetings Master,

This was a fascinating statement that stood out to me. Are you saying that men can give women "equality" in some things externally, but yet internally still master them? And only someone who cannot master women internally, need resort to external means to subjugate her?

Well wishes,
anna

_____________________________

“I refuse to be the leader. I want a man ... always over me. His will, his pleasure, his desire, his life, his work, his sexuality the touchstone, the command, my pivot."~Anaiis Nin

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Why? - 10/29/2011 4:27:26 PM   
AnnaOfAramis


Posts: 509
Joined: 7/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

every Ying has it's Yang, just as every female, has a male she relates to on a primal level, and when those two forces come together, it works. You were mastered by your owner because it was right, no matter how you fought it internally, it was what you were seeking, even if you didn't know it.



Greetings Mistress, I absolutely agree with this.

I am not sure about this part:
quote:

That said, you were not forced into bondage, you gave it up willingly. No matter how you struggled internally, or maybe even externally with your feelings...in the end, you gave in. .....There still needs to be a part of the woman who allowed herself to be mastered, regardless of the reason, otherwise, it was nothing more then slavery as we know about in history, where no one was happy, there was no romance and often times the masters were weak individuals.... I think what your talking about is reacting to an emotional trigger, not so much being held against your will


I don't know how much of it is semantics, because on one level I know what you are saying and I agree to a certain extent, and yet I am not sure how much "willingness" there can be said to be- and that may be a mere matter of definition. Yes, it is an emotional trigger that causes it as a response and yet whether one can say that response is "willingness" and "allowing" oneself to be mastered... I lean towards thinking not. When you fall in love with someone, it happens as a reaction to them, and sometimes you might not want to feel that way, sometimes you are not aware you are beginning to feel that way, until one day you realize that you do. I don't really think one can say you chose that, just that it was caused. Maybe you could choose to walk away if you were still free at that point, but with mastery, once it's happened, you can't. I don't know if I can explain it. Perhaps you choose to associate with the man at first and keep choosing to go back at the initial stages while you are still free, so I suppose there is choice there, but at the point that you have become mastered, you cannot. I was never aware of a point at which I "gave in", but I was aware of the point at which I realized I had already been his without knowing it. Perhaps it could be argued that there is choice when a girl begs a man's collar, but I think at that point, a girl is just begging the symbol of what already is, not making a choice.

Well wishes,
anna

_____________________________

“I refuse to be the leader. I want a man ... always over me. His will, his pleasure, his desire, his life, his work, his sexuality the touchstone, the command, my pivot."~Anaiis Nin

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
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