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"I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/29/2011 9:32:01 PM   
hangemhigh1953


Posts: 245
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I have seen this phrase in various forms floating around Dommes' profiles around here. I would like to ask women who feel this way a hypothetical question (no this doesn't have anything to do with me or my own experiences, just a thought I had after seeing these).
If you were with an ex-Navy SEAL (or some other super-alpha tough guy job) who identified as a sub, and he told you he was way into force fem or sissy play, how would you react? Is he no longer a "real man" in your eyes? Is there an exception for someone like that?

Note that this is not aimed at women who are simply not into sissy play or feminization, but women who judge a sub's "manliness" on the existence or prevalence of this fetish.

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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/29/2011 10:01:48 PM   
SweetDommes


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For me, the only fem I want is Holly.  Does it make them less of a man to me?  Nah.  Am I going to be interested in anything other than friendship with them?  Also nah.  I like all kinds of males, from ultra masculine to androgynous, scrawny to ripped to 'teddy bear' - but I want them as males, not females.

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Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.

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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/29/2011 10:09:22 PM   
ChosenFew


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Funny isn't it. If you want to know what a "real man" is, ask a woman... I mean has she ever been a man? One time in a Church meeting I made the mistake of stating "women can't leed". Immediatly I found myself surrounded by women. They questioned me. They had their heroes, both in and out of the bible who were female leaders. Then I finally agreed with them. Saying; there was a reason God chose 12 male apostles and 144,000 evangelists. But in agreeing with them I reminded them of the Greatest Female leader of all time. EVE Who lead all man kind right out of the garden. HELLO.

_____________________________

[Chosen Few]

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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/29/2011 10:29:31 PM   
MistressSnow


Posts: 59
Joined: 5/19/2004
From: Santa Monica, CA
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OP-
My own very personal view point is this: I prefer not to have as personal or even professional clients that are "sissy's". I stated on another post very recently why I feel this way. I want my subs/slaves/clients/fans/whatever, to be "into" me. Not into themselves. As I have found with my vast years of exp most of them (sissys) to be about their own little, "fuck the world, I am gonna be a sissy girl today, and I look soooo damn cute." Just the high fem domme in me, I like to be the belle of the ball. FYI- I have owned females slaves before, so this has nothing to do with I only want big tough guys to submit to me. It matters to me not how tough the male or female is in the real world, when they are in my world, they needs to know their place.

Maybe my views help, maybe they do not---- but you did ask.....



_____________________________

In Leather Dominance,
Mistress Snow
aka
Mistress Snowmonkey

"I used to be snow white, but I drifted."- Mae West

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Mistress_Snowmonkey/


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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/29/2011 11:30:44 PM   
MistressDarkArt


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If a Navy Seal had a sissy fetish I wouldn't think of him as less of a man, I would think of him as a Navy Seal who had a sissy fetish.

And yes, I agree with MistressSnow. The sissies I've known have been 'all about them'. It really just came down to bartering chores in the Lair for prancing around in panties, garters and a sock-stuffed bra.

MEH!!

Bottom line: I like males who serve as males.

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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/29/2011 11:32:18 PM   
MistressDarkArt


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PS: ChosenFew dude, did you know your head's on fire? Methinks your brain's getting a bit of crispy critter to it...

< Message edited by MistressDarkArt -- 11/29/2011 11:33:33 PM >

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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/30/2011 12:05:03 AM   
hangemhigh1953


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MistressSnow, I remember you talking about that before. That is actually a totally legitimate reason for not liking sissies. And to be completely fair, as much as I admire SEALs, he typically would want to make it all about himself, I hear they're usually egotistical d-bags.

_____________________________

"Chains of love got a hold on me,
when passion's a prison you can't break free"

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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/30/2011 1:25:04 AM   
Masticator


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As far as I can tell... you're right. Women most definitely can not "leed". Keep up the good work!

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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/30/2011 2:38:10 AM   
MissAsylum


Posts: 1863
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No, it doesn't make that person any less of a man.

However, i get bored with the whole notion fairly quickly. I've done it in sessions, just its gotten to the point where i often turn these guys away.

Don't care if you pay me, i'm seriously just not interested in the least.

"Ooo look at me! Look how "pretty" i look!"

*yawn*

In addition, the fact that they always (most of the time) want to dress up as a slutty type of woman. I can't help but to be a tad bit insulted. Really, this is "pretty" to you?

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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/30/2011 3:41:12 AM   
Delilya


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I have to agree with the women on the fact that is is all about them and not me. I have sissy friends whom I adore, I've helped them with hair, make up, etc. But when it comes down to the wire I want passion. And not passion about what the dress of the week is. I want manly moans, not girly squeals.

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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/30/2011 4:15:49 AM   
searching4mysir


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nevermind....wrong room for that discussion. Religion and politics is down the hall.

< Message edited by searching4mysir -- 11/30/2011 4:17:00 AM >

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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/30/2011 4:52:06 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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In the original, you said that this question wasn't for those who aren't into sissy play or feminization.  That doesn't especially make sense to Me because it seems that the women who are cool with these particular kinks aren't the ones that you're addressing.  Comments such as "not a real man" don't tend to come from those who are into the kink unless they lean toward using it for humiliation purposes.  That's a whole different question than you seem to be asking here.

While I don't have the 'not a real man' thing on My profile, I do have listed that I am not interested in those who cross dress or anything along those lines.  My reasoning for this is fairly simple.  I'm straight.  If a person presents to Me as female, I'm going to interpret that person as female and I'm not going to be interested in any type of intimate relationship with them.  Friendship is fine, but I would see that person in the same way as I do My female friends.  It means that sexual interest is absolutely off the table, which isn't the situation that I want for a D/s dynamic.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/30/2011 5:02:54 AM   
DarkSteven


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OP, I'm not sure what you mean by a "sissy".  Do you mean someone who gets feminized in play sessions and presents as a man to the outside world, or someone who wants to present to others as female, such as a CD/TV?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChosenFew

Funny isn't it. If you want to know what a "real man" is, ask a woman... I mean has she ever been a man? One time in a Church meeting I made the mistake of stating "women can't leed". Immediatly I found myself surrounded by women. They questioned me. They had their heroes, both in and out of the bible who were female leaders. Then I finally agreed with them. Saying; there was a reason God chose 12 male apostles and 144,000 evangelists. But in agreeing with them I reminded them of the Greatest Female leader of all time. EVE Who lead all man kind right out of the garden. HELLO.


ChosenFew, the OP was asking what women wanted in regards to masculinity and sissification.  He clearly was not interested in what constituted a real man as much as he was interested in what women's takes were.

And telling the whole world that you believe that women cannot lead in the Ask a Mistress forum?  Cool move, dude.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/30/2011 6:38:39 AM   
Arienos


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quote:

Is he no longer a "real man" in your eyes? Is there an exception for someone like that?


Hell I am a man and I am not sure how I would define a real man. Oh I have been exposed to men I respected and honored, some who have even inspired me. I live by codes of honor instilled during early childhood and re-defined in the forges of Marine Corps standards but life’s living has me ever evaluating the man of me and I think what challenges me here is the words "real man."

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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/30/2011 8:16:43 AM   
OttersSwim


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I always find these threads to be a little disturbing.   Does anyone else get to the last post in this thread and just sort of feel...well, YUK?

The connotation that somehow someone having this fetish is "less" of anything.

The obligatory "not for me" posts.

The disheartening statement of fact, because it is fact, of the misplaced "focus" for so very very many seeking to express a gender variant.

And, the feeling of "dismissal" from consideration of a whole bunch of people, based on experiences with just a few, almost certainly new, and clueless individuals who "don't know what they don't know."

I guess I just want to remind everyone reading here, that there are guys out there, who express a gender variance (be that Sissy, CD, TV, Trans, whatever, be it a fetish, or a life choice)...that CAN actually differentiate their fetish from their relationships, who ARE ready for relationship, and who understand that D/s and M/s is more than just pretty clothes put on them.

No really!

So we cannot deny the preponderance of the evidence - there are a lot of guys out there, with this single-threaded kink, looking for their own satisfaction only...a...lot....

BUT...

I would say for most, it's not because they are selfish twits...but because they are new and really have not even dipped their toe into the concepts of what D/s or M/s relationships are about beyond what they have seen in porn.

And let's face it, pros and CM are gathering points for people with fetishes, and more often than not, are a first stop...so we see a lot of them, and the pros see a lot of them.  So much so, that IMO the perspectives put out here, don't really fit with the reality in many BDSM communities where there are successful couples involved in the scene where one partner is someone who is expressing some form of gender variant...so they do exist!  Those of you who are active in your communities, if you think about it, will likely be able to come up with at least one example of this.   I can think of multiple couples in the Colorado front range - female Dominants who have male subs who engage in gender expression as part of their dynamic - happy, engaged in their dynamic, and together!

So many of the folks that are new, really have no clue of what is actually going on in a D/s or M/s relationship.  As I said before, they "don't know what they don't know" and need education.  My Lady and I have done this several times with new folks who message her looking for "fetish delivery"  I know that educating people can be a lot of work...and some folks are never going to get it - they are not going to be submissive, and they are not going to look beyond their own desires to that very important "other person".   That fact, can put people off from even engaging, and I get that.

Maybe not your "kink" to do that much educating...however...if you encounter some fem guy who seems to actually have a clue, please don't dismiss him out of hand because of the "things you have heard or read about those types of people"

Please realize that there are people out there - Sissies, CDs, TVs, Trans-folk, etc - who DO get it, who do see the other, who make what and who they are positive and attractive and engaging, who desire a D/s or M/s relationship based on so much more than what they are wearing, and frankly would make the right person (emphasis on right person) great partners.



P.S. - I should add that I say "guys" in my post several times.  This is not to exclude the community of transgendered people, nor to misgender them in any way.


< Message edited by OttersSwim -- 11/30/2011 8:38:50 AM >


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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/30/2011 8:43:47 AM   
NiceButMeanGirl


Posts: 2756
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From: Bellingham, WA U.S.A.
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Hangemhigh1953,
"Real men" come in all shapes & sizes and all kinds of clothing....or none at all for that matter. I know CDs who are really nice people. Sure, there are some where it's all about "Look at me" and being the prettiest girl in the room & has nothing to do w/ really being sub. But there are also others who are doing it to express another facet of their personality and that's way cool.

I'm communicating w/ a sub right now who's all "manly man" most of the time in the so-called traditional sense, but he also cross-dresses sometimes and he looks very pretty that way. He's got beautiful hair too, and it's all his own.

MistressDarkArt,
Maybe God set ChosenFew's head on fire cause he pissed Her off when he said women can't lead. I mean, when I read that & saw his picture, I could see it happening......

NBMG

_____________________________

I'm now SweetlySadistic1 on CollarSpace. NBMG is an old profile, please see my new one.


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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/30/2011 9:15:20 AM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
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I saw Otters up top so I deleted what I was going to post and decided to wait.

My recent forays into BDSM have been on the newer side of the kneel for me, as a domme.

I'm sorry to say that I fall into that 'sorry not for me' camp.

It's not because I have anything against sissies, or CDs or TVs. I don't. When it comes to the kink and whole sissy culture I 'get it', I love the theatrical element of it, the role play, even some of the parody (which some of the women miss but I find quite amusing). I find such people great people, warm, sensitive guys (or gals, depending on how they're dressed).

But it's also got to be said that there are some sissies and CDs who aren't anywhere close and even though they have the right clothes, shoes, heels and stuff they either don't 'get' the culture themselves or it's used as a front for deeper gender issues.

I would suggest that this thread is more to do with the latter than the former.

It's not so much the attention whoring and shoot, I don't mind sitting through a conversation for a few hours of someone going on and on about themselves (a while back I even had someone on Skype for several hours on just two topics in monotone) but it's the inability to relate, to connect and the male bitchiness.

It's hard work. But more than this it's the rigidity, the set expectations, the sulking and hissy fits if I dare state a preference. It's the fact that I give a couple of inches and someone's disappointed because they haven't got three miles.

Now this has only been three or four attempts, but with three or four people and arriving at the same or similar results. Each time I'm dealing with someone new, each time I only have past experiences to go on. The thing is there's a limit to just how much I'm prepared to let go, overlook, and each time it comes to the same conclusion that limit gets shorter and shorter.

Sadly, it's reached the point where I'd rather play with a male submissive who's 'do me' because even in that situation there's a bit of purchase. However I do have a couple of male subs who are older, experienced, and a delight to play with.

It's not sad for me personally, in fact it's no skin off my nose at the end of the day. I'm just playing casually here.

But it's sad because it's usually the genuine ones who lose out because the inconsiderate and selfish ones have made such an effort to create the sorts of reactions you find posted above. Here, everybody loses.

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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/30/2011 9:47:43 AM   
MissImmortalPain


Posts: 2440
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I really have no idea how to word my answer to this question. So I will just run off some things and hope it leads someplace....

I actually know three Navy men that do drag when I ask them to. *moment of pause here* I have to admit I am always impressed that they can step out of the image of what others say they should be like. But than I was impressed by them as men to begin with. By how they carry themselves, how they lead their lives, the things they do for their country, etc. The fact that at least one of them will "sissy" because he enjoys it, not because I do, has no impact on how I few him as a man.

As for clients....doesn't matter they pay me to play to their kink. I judge(and yes I will admit I judge) them more by their actions as a client than by their kink.

The livein pet does drag from time to time for no other reason than (to quote him) "you find dick in a dress entertaining" and he is right, from time to time, I do. I find very few things on the planet more entertaining than a man that can actually pass for a woman in public. I believe that has more to do with my personal views of what people pay attention to and what they don't when it comes to people they come in contact with.

Having said all that...I think I found my point....Defining someones can not be done simply by what they are wearing. What defines gender, much like what defines a person in any other manner, lives on a much deeper level than that. Putting a dress on a man doesn't make him any less of a man than putting makeup on a woman somehow makes her more of woman.



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It is always by way of pain that we arrive at pleasure.

We must all go through a right of passage,and it must be physical, it must be painful,and it must leave a mark.

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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/30/2011 10:04:20 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
I always find these threads to be a little disturbing.   Does anyone else get to the last post in this thread and just sort of feel...well, YUK?

No, I really don't.  Hopefully in My response here, I can clarify as to why.

quote:

The connotation that somehow someone having this fetish is "less" of anything.

Here's where this gets sticky because there are two ways to look at this.  The OP very specifically states that this question comes after reading profiles that have the expression of "wanting a real man" within the text.  To Me, that means the person who wrote it is the one with the opinion.  That's who it should be taken up with.

In the abstract, meaning the statement "less than" would seem to apply to those who are looking at the situation from the angle of personal relationships.  If someone is completely against a partner who is involved in a certain kink, that is an individual choice.  To Me, this is no different than any other kink or lifestyle choice that any person has as a hard limit or something that isn't compatible with them.

quote:

The obligatory "not for me" posts.

This relates to My prior response on this thread.  If it was something that was for them, the negative comments wouldn't be in the profiles to begin with.  (Let's take the potential of humiliation games out of it for a second.)  Taking the comments at face value only, isn't it the "not for Me" group that is being addressed?  I think we'll both have to wait for the OP to clarify that.

quote:

The disheartening statement of fact, because it is fact, of the misplaced "focus" for so very very many seeking to express a gender variant.

Let's cut to the chase here.  I highly doubt either one of us is going to try to deny that this generalization exists.  I might even go so far as to say that, as a group, sissy's, CD's, etc (I don't care, pick a term) have more bad press than any other category.  The bad press didn't come to be because it was based completely on fiction.  I'd compare it to the way the reception for switches comes about.  There's always somebody who had a switch (or knows somebody who was involved with a switch) where the switch was constantly challenging authority or there was a power play struggle.  That doesn't mean that all switches do this, but it sure gets around, doesn't it?  It's the very same thing.


quote:

And, the feeling of "dismissal" from consideration of a whole bunch of people, based on experiences with just a few, almost certainly new, and clueless individuals who "don't know what they don't know."

I think we do a real disservice to anyone thinking that everyone will consider them as a potential partner.  The kink world isn't any different than the non kink world in this aspect.  If everybody wanted every kink in their lives, no person would reject another person based on incompatibility in these areas.

quote:

I guess I just want to remind everyone reading here, that there are guys out there, who express a gender variance (be that Sissy, CD, TV, Trans, whatever, be it a fetish, or a life choice)...that CAN actually differentiate their fetish from their relationships, who ARE ready for relationship, and who understand that D/s and M/s is more than just pretty clothes put on them.

No really!

Again, I don't think either of us can deny that both exist.

quote:

So we cannot deny the preponderance of the evidence - there are a lot of guys out there, with this single-threaded kink, looking for their own satisfaction only...a...lot....

If you know this to be true, the comments on the thread reflecting that can not be dismissed.  It is part of the subject for some people.

quote:

BUT...

I would say for most, it's not because they are selfish twits...but because they are new and really have not even dipped their toe into the concepts of what D/s or M/s relationships are about beyond what they have seen in porn.

Frankly, some folks aren't going to want to deal with that.  I see this as being their prerogative.

quote:

And let's face it, pros and CM are gathering points for people with fetishes, and more often than not, are a first stop...so we see a lot of them, and the pros see a lot of them.  So much so, that IMO the perspectives put out here, don't really fit with the reality in many BDSM communities where there are successful couples involved in the scene where one partner is someone who is expressing some form of gender variant...so they do exist!  Those of you who are active in your communities, if you think about it, will likely be able to come up with at least one example of this.   I can think of multiple couples in the Colorado front range - female Dominants who have male subs who engage in gender expression as part of their dynamic - happy, engaged in their dynamic, and together!

I'm not a pro, but I'm not completely clueless about the business, either.  It's not that such couples don't exist in the community.  However, there are also a segment of folks who are not interested in gender variance in the case of their own submissive.  This is where supply and demand comes in which is the very cornerstone of business.  Profit then becomes the equalizer in some situations.  It's one of the "whys" behind the reason that some folks go to pros in the first place.

quote:

So many of the folks that are new, really have no clue of what is actually going on in a D/s or M/s relationship.  As I said before, they "don't know what they don't know" and need education.  My Lady and I have done this several times with new folks who message her looking for "fetish delivery"  I know that educating people can be a lot of work...and some folks are never going to get it - they are not going to be submissive, and they are not going to look beyond their own desires to that very important "other person".   That fact, can put people off from even engaging, and I get that.

At the same time, you must accept that this is a personal choice that the two of you have undertaken because it is something that is near and dear to you.  For those who do not feel the same way on the subject, it's unlikely to happen.  There's a difference between your willingness and that of others.  Even worse when we carry expectations on the behavior of others in how we feel they 'must' or 'should' handle those new folks.

quote:

Maybe not your "kink" to do that much educating...however...if you encounter some fem guy who seems to actually have a clue, please don't dismiss him out of hand because of the "things you have heard or read about those types of people"

This is exactly what I mean by the above.  You can't decide for others how they will interact with a third party.  It is necessary to allow others to conduct their contacts from others as they wish.

quote:

Please realize that there are people out there - Sissies, CDs, TVs, Trans-folk, etc - who DO get it, who do see the other, who make what and who they are positive and attractive and engaging, who desire a D/s or M/s relationship based on so much more than what they are wearing, and frankly would make the right person (emphasis on right person) great partners.



It is not My contention here to say that such individuals do not exist.  You happen to be a fine example of this yourself.  At the same time, just as you don't want people to base their opinions on the generalization of bad examples, you also can't have them base their opinion on the example that you provide.

My best to you and your Lady.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: "I don't want a sissy, I want a real man!" - 11/30/2011 10:18:43 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline
~FR~

I don't want a sissy because, ffs, I can't even do the girly thing for MYSELF al that well!!

but no, I do not equate manliness with the sissy thing. no man that *I* find to be a
"manly man" will be lessened in my mind if he wants the sissy thing... he just won't be a man I am interested in.

I prefer a man in a toolbelt, for instance, to serve me.

and I am sure I am not clear on what I mean.. I do not mean to sound disparaging, if I have done so..

I am about to go nap, so my thoughts probably aren't as clear as they should be....



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