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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/17/2011 6:56:19 PM

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quote:

Kalikshama quoting EEOC

* The victim does not have to be the person harassed but could be anyone affected by the offensive conduct.
* Unlawful sexual harassment may occur without economic injury to or discharge of the victim.

Like ripples across a pond the effects spread. The receptionist is harassed and this makes the secretary feel unsafe. And act differently. Both women are victims of the same act. Fifty frat 'boys' survey the campus for prey. Muse over certain classmates like steaks in a butchers window. Is there a reason any woman not named should feel safe? What must these do to regain some of their lost sense of safety? And what must they not do, anymore? Trust ANY man? Is there any reason they should not be angry? Does it make a difference whether the woman is a student, or does this affect all women? And what of those men not involved whose motives are now viewed with less trust than before, should these not be ticked off as well?

Rape is a crime that diminishes the most basic of society' bonds. Trust is eroded. That quote Nothing actually happened unquote isn't really true.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/17/2011 8:23:05 PM

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FR

I see so many people who use the "Freedom of Speech" banner as a protection, when it seems more to me that what they are really saying is "Freedom to be Stupid and not held Accountable for such Stupidity." There are limits on freedom of speech. To quote the Wikipedia article on Freedom of Speech, in regards to the "Limitations" section:

quote:

According to the Freedom Forum Organization, legal systems, and society at large, recognize limits on the freedom of speech, particularly when freedom of speech conflicts with other values or rights. Limitations to freedom of speech may follow the "harm principle" or the "offense principle", for example in the case of pornography or hate speech. Limitations to freedom of speech may occur through legal sanction or social disapprobation, or both.

Or as my father was often fond of saying: "The right and freedom to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."

Personally, I like the rough play and I have forced sex fantasies (I dislike calling them rape fantasies, for reasons that should be obvious). I am careful to explain what about them draws me, and what the limits are. There is definitely a lot of gray area in between what I feel is right and wrong, acceptable and unacceptable, but not so much between what is safe, sane and consensual and what is not.The survey, to me, is clearly wrong and inappropriate, especially on a college campus. (I would even question it on a forum such as CM.) It is clearly promoting the idea that it is socially acceptable and okay to force someone against their will, and some would feel it even encourages it. "But officer, she was listed 150 times on the 'like to rape list,' so it must be okay because everyone wants to rape her!" WTF?

It promotes causing harm and the destruction of another persons identity, safety and security. It violates THEIR rights, so no, I do not believe one bit that this would in any way fall under the "Freedom of Speech," "harmless prank," or even the "Dumb college kids doing dumb things" umbrellas. Even if there were no legal issues (which there are, at least in the US where this happened), if I were the college, I would still toss them out on their asses as they are clearly too immature and stupid to belong in college.

(in reply to EmilyRocks)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/17/2011 8:40:57 PM

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To expand on FF's post about whom the victim is..

There are indeed victims in the frat's poll: The women on the list, whether or not they were physically assaulted, are still victims of a crime. Saying they are not is like saying when someone pulls out a gun and points it at me, threatening to kill me is not a crime and I am not a victim of any crime, because he did not actually shoot me. The crime in many jurisdictions is "assault with a deadly weapon," and does not differentiate between whether or not they actually pulled the trigger or just threatened to.

The college is also a victim of the crime: The stigma and damage to their reputation that they will now have to endure is something that can be both quantified and otherwise. Even if they take swift and firm action to control the damage and properly discipline the frat, how many women do you think there are that will mark that college off their list of potential colleges out of fear for their own safety?

Society in general is a victim. The frat is just 50 or so people in the whole of society, and clearly, there are many others in the community and the society at large whom felt this was offensive and threatening. How many non-students will now change their daily routine to make sure they find routes to their destinations that avoid going anywhere near the college in fear that the students will expand their assaults beyond those boundaries, or might get mistaken for a student? There is a reason why the phrase "The people versus.." is used in some court cases; Because a victim does not have to be a single, distinct, human entity. It can be a group of people or a legally recognized entity such as a business, institution, and so on.

And frankly, just reading the post about what happened made me feel dirty, violated, and assaulted in a negative way. (Although I cannot think of any clear legal precedent to legally call myself a victim in this case..)

(in reply to FrostedFlake)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/17/2011 8:43:05 PM

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Didn't read....saw the header...want to take a baseball bat to....

END.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/18/2011 5:53:47 AM

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http://aspiringeconomist.com/index.php/2009/09/11/rape-statistics-1-in-4/

I disagree with the author that this survey question:

Have you had sexual intercourse when you didn’t want to because a man gave you alcohol or drugs?

Means the same as survey critics' conclusion:

An affirmative answer was counted as rape. In other words, a women who regretted a one night stand after a night of drinking was considered as having been sexually assaulted.

I didn't want to at the time plus my ability to consent was impaired does not equal I regretted it afterwards.

From the comments:

Also, later researchers repeated Koss’ study with that question replaced by “Have you engaged in sexual intercourse when you didn’t want to but were so intoxicated under the influence of alcohol or drugs that you could not stop it or object?” It didn’t change the results.

http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html

Koss, however, insisted that her criteria conformed with the legal definitions of rape used in some states, and she cited in particular the statute on rape of her own state, Ohio: "No person shall engage in sexual conduct with another person . . . when . . . for the purpose of preventing resistance the offender substantially impairs the other person's judgment or control by administering any drug or intoxicant to the other person" (Ohio revised code 1980, 2907.01A, 2907.02).[18]

Koss now concedes that question eight was badly worded. Indeed, she told the Blade reporters, "At the time I viewed the question as legal; I now concede that it's ambiguous."[20]

(in reply to samboct)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/18/2011 6:17:19 AM

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quote:

An affirmative answer was counted as rape. In other words, a women who regretted a one night stand after a night of drinking was considered as having been sexually assaulted.

A critique of Ross's critics also finds:

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2006/05/03/the-iwf-attack-on-rape-statistics/

However, it’s not enough to express concern. We should also ask, what does evidence say? Anti-feminists have been repeating this criticism of Koss’ survey for at least 15 years, but I’ve never seen one provide a speck of evidence that the question, in the context of a survey about rape and sexual coercion, is actually misunderstood by respondents to mean “have you ever had sex while drunk and regretted it in the morning?”

In fact, evidence shows that Lukas is wrong. Researchers Martin Schwartz and Molly Leggett tested the disputed question empirically back in 1999.a They surveyed students with a modified version of Koss’ survey, which substituted this question for Koss’ original alcohol and drugs question:

Have you engaged in sexual intercourse when you didn’t want to but were so intoxicated under the influence of alcohol or drugs that you could not stop it or object?

If Lukas and other critics are correct to believe that Koss’ question creates a significant “false yes” problem, leading Koss to overestimate rape prevalence, then a significantly larger proportion of students would have answered “yes” to Koss’ original question than to Schwartz and Leggett’s rewritten version. So what actually happened? Rewriting the question made no difference at all – 17% percent of students surveyed by Schwartz and Leggett were found to have been raped, a number basically identical to Koss’ 15%. This proves that Lukas is wrong – Koss’ results are not caused by students saying “yes” because of morning-after regrets.

(in reply to kalikshama)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/18/2011 6:27:28 AM

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Its the "good ole boy network" Kalika.

Some of the responses here are disgusting, but what I believed I would see anyways.

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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/18/2011 6:43:40 AM

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Last I knew threatening a violent crime is not covered under freedom of speech.

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/18/2011 7:53:02 AM

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Having had a bit of time to reflect- I think what this thread shows are the flaws that date back to the 70s and 80s where feminists took control of the debate, and effectively excluded men. This has fostered an "us or them" culture that's clearly showing up here. People are citing studies that date back to 1982- and hell, that was the year I graduated college. Back then, homosexuality was still peeking out the door of the closet, and in a few years the AIDs epidemic and the responses of society showed how repressive we were of the homosexual segment of society to the detriment of all.

I for one, am aggravated by the continued ownership of this debate by feminists for a couple of reasons. First- whatever they've done hasn't worked- the debate on this thread could have happened 30 years ago. Second, by loudly proclaiming that rape is a problem that affects women, they've alienated men in the middle, provided ammunition for conservatives, and discarded progressive men who have begun to say that rape is a problem that affects all of us- and in terms of underreporting- it's far more prevalent amongst men than women.

From my perspective- if we're going to make progress in terms of dealing with rape in our society we need to do the following:

1) Stop throwing around scare statistics and endlessly repeating them.
2) Recognize that rape is a threat to all members of society.
3) Quit demonizing men as the instigators of rape.
4) Clearly differentiate between rape as an assault which should be prosecuted as such, and so-called date rape. Conflating the two has not worked.
5) Come up with a definition of rape that is clear and unambiguous. Rape is not a "bad" date- rape is an assault with physical violence or the threat of physical violence. This lack of clarity has given prosecutors and police an excuse to not vigorously prosecute and criminalize rape. If it is understood that rape is a problem that affects all of us, then the law may be able to function better.

Sam

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/18/2011 8:31:10 AM

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Sam........in MY mind and that of any woman I know.....rape is sex that has not been consented to. As someone else pointed out regarding the ATM theft, there IS still a distorted mindset in many men's minds.

MOST women do not care what you and other men think the boundaries should be. It is the victims, the intended victims, the possible victims....it is THEIR idea of what the boundaries are that matters. And quite honestly, if you or other males do not agree with them about those boundaries, you are the ones that are alienating yourselves.

Unless you wish to discuss the rape of men....

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to samboct)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/18/2011 8:39:37 AM

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LaT

What I am suggesting quite simply- is to remove gender from the rape discussion. Treat both victims and attackers as gender neutral.

Sam

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/18/2011 8:42:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

LaT

What I am suggesting quite simply- is to remove gender from the rape discussion. Treat both victims and attackers as gender neutral.

Sam

When the majority of the perpetrators are men and the majority of the victims are women?

Sam,
That just doesn't make sense.

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(in reply to samboct)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/18/2011 8:52:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

LaT

What I am suggesting quite simply- is to remove gender from the rape discussion. Treat both victims and attackers as gender neutral.

Sam

Sam I understand what you are saying but all things considered, what Angelika has mentioned, I do not believe it is possible. The reality is that the majority of human beings that commit violence and sex crimes are men. Just the reality of that will impede any progress in that regard.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to samboct)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/18/2011 8:56:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Having had a bit of time to reflect- I think what this thread shows are the flaws that date back to the 70s and 80s where feminists took control of the debate, and effectively excluded men. This has fostered an "us or them" culture that's clearly showing up here. People are citing studies that date back to 1982- and hell, that was the year I graduated college. Back then, homosexuality was still peeking out the door of the closet, and in a few years the AIDs epidemic and the responses of society showed how repressive we were of the homosexual segment of society to the detriment of all.

I for one, am aggravated by the continued ownership of this debate by feminists for a couple of reasons. First- whatever they've done hasn't worked- the debate on this thread could have happened 30 years ago. Second, by loudly proclaiming that rape is a problem that affects women, they've alienated men in the middle, provided ammunition for conservatives, and discarded progressive men who have begun to say that rape is a problem that affects all of us- and in terms of underreporting- it's far more prevalent amongst men than women.

From my perspective- if we're going to make progress in terms of dealing with rape in our society we need to do the following:

1) Stop throwing around scare statistics and endlessly repeating them.
2) Recognize that rape is a threat to all members of society.
3) Quit demonizing men as the instigators of rape.
4) Clearly differentiate between rape as an assault which should be prosecuted as such, and so-called date rape. Conflating the two has not worked.
5) Come up with a definition of rape that is clear and unambiguous. Rape is not a "bad" date- rape is an assault with physical violence or the threat of physical violence. This lack of clarity has given prosecutors and police an excuse to not vigorously prosecute and criminalize rape. If it is understood that rape is a problem that affects all of us, then the law may be able to function better.

Sam

When men stop being the instigators of rape ok? Until then, no. Fuck sake, these snotty little frat boys should all be tossed out of school for having the potential to be rapists. Self entitled little pricks.

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
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(in reply to samboct)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/18/2011 9:06:52 AM

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I'll certainly posit that most rapists are men. So are most murderers, bank robbers, car thieves etc. Yet our laws and the discussion around these crimes is gender neutral. Our system works best (not that it works all that well, mind you, but let's not hobble it further) when laws and the discussion around crimes are gender neutral.

I will point out yet again that we've had the discussions about rape slanted around gender. They haven't worked IMHO since there's been not much change in either attitudes or prosecution in decades. I think it's time to try a different approach. Recall Einstein's comment- One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result.

Sam

(in reply to Aynne88)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/18/2011 9:06:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

When men stop being the instigators of rape ok? Until then, no. Fuck sake, these snotty little frat boys should all be tossed out of school for having the potential to be rapists. Self entitled little pricks.

Self entitled little pricks though they may be, you can't take action against people for what they may potentially do. Anyone has the potential to be a rapist. That doesn't guarantee they ever actually would be. That's taking us into "Minority Report" territory there. Scary stuff...........luci

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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/18/2011 9:14:02 AM

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Really? Let's say these idiots made a list of people they'd like to shoot in the back of the head then? You know, Columbine style. What then? Let them stay? Nope.

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As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)

(in reply to slaveluci)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/18/2011 9:19:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

I'll certainly posit that most rapists are men. So are most murderers, bank robbers, car thieves etc. Yet our laws and the discussion around these crimes is gender neutral. Our system works best (not that it works all that well, mind you, but let's not hobble it further) when laws and the discussion around crimes are gender neutral.

I will point out yet again that we've had the discussions about rape slanted around gender. They haven't worked IMHO since there's been not much change in either attitudes or prosecution in decades. I think it's time to try a different approach. Recall Einstein's comment- One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result.

Sam

Explain how you envision making 'rapist' and 'rape victim' gender neutral, is going to solve anything.

How about we start giving some sort of psychological test periodically after puberty to ALL children and young adults. Just gas those that have some sort of determined marker for violence against another.

Yes I am joking but I think it is equally unrealistic.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to samboct)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/18/2011 9:46:37 AM

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LaT-

The difference is that what I'm suggesting is realistic- and what you suggested isn't. Look, even the schoolyard discussions about taunting kids about being gay- well, that's changing- it's no longer so commonly used as an epithet from when I was a kid. Nor is the "N" word. Remember the Supreme Court decision- "Separate but equal doesn't work." Well, it's time that we bring rape laws and the discussion into line with what we've learned about any discrimination- laws which are inherently discriminatory don't work. You can't single out a group for special protection-it doesn't work.

The only way to improve the culture around rape is to make the discussion and laws gender neutral. Otherwise we're prolonging the status quo with women seeking special victimhood which leads to anger amongst men. Men can get raped too- so why is rape a crime that only affects women? We need to change the dynamic from just women against rapists, to everyone against rapists.

Sam

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/18/2011 9:51:42 AM

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Sam, have you ever been involved in a trial or a victim of rape and subsequently went on to the trial against the perpetrator?

angel

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(in reply to samboct)

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