RE: Enslavement from my own Gorean perspective

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RE: Enslavement from my own Gorean perspective - 12/30/2011 11:01:13 PM

starshineowned

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quote:

So you see legalized social slavery, robes of concealment and any other pre-capitulation accoutrement devised to facilitate the uncompromised surrender of woman is nothing more than that, a implement towards something much more wondrous, beautiful and gratifying, for both the man and the woman. So as several of you like to debate against, it is my assertion that mere slavery has never been a Gorean objective, slavery is not a desirable result, slavery implies a person held against their will, the Gorean man sought to inspire the willing surrender of a woman’s will and resistance. He sought not simply to extort her fear or lust, but ultimately he wanted her most cherished commodity, her love.

It is this section above all else that keeps tossing me in different directions here based on all that has been said over the years. To look at this from a here and now standpoint..the facilitation as you described it Master Bull shows a weakness amongst men to be able to facilitate and master a woman without such implementations. Even then it was no guarantee that the desired "love" would occur. A question that keeps coming to mind is: With legal slavery implemented and still only 4% of the populous were slaves..what percentage would it be if there were no legal slavery present to facilitate this search? All in all I guess I just am not seeing (and understand that Norman used models of history) what is really different for Goreans than is different for a great majority of mankind in general as they are seeking the same ultimate goal.

There are a lot of couples that marry and stay together their whole life long who express this sort of love between them. Their whole lives are one another, and the loss of one often leads to a prompt death of the other. So this leads one to a conclusion that being or even knowing of Gor is not required but just happens in life if your lucky.

If what you say is what is really sought and what Norman was trying to express..why does he have to use a slave to do so? As in..no other allowable status of female even had a chance at coming to a state of surrender simply by the mans own merits of being a man? Is this a show that women is really all that powerful that such implements had to be in place for such to occur or is Norman showing men that they are weak and need to get their acts together? Was it some guide for man to show what a lot of women needed but were not able to express?

starshine

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RE: Enslavement from my own Gorean perspective - 12/31/2011 2:43:17 AM

Cherylmazana

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quote:

That being said though..isn't this about not being the status quo?

Wow starshine, you did not get that from the books, the books are filled with examples of laws and the Priest Kings keeping Gor in stasis. The various regions of Gor are xenophobic to an astonishing degree.

John Norman is a satirist he says one thing and shows another to show the falacy of rigid thinking, he says as Tarl that Earth is too soft and Gor too harsh. He uses them both as extreme examples, the weak and useless Earth men, the proud honourable and strong Goreans.

He then shows that all Goreans are not honourable and not all from Earth are weak

Its the same with is slavery, all women are slaves apart from those who ar not

He creates an absolute and then destroys it, you are supposed to lean from what is shown not from what is said

In effect it is the opposite from the old cliche do as I say not as I do, with John Norman it is do as I do not how I say.

Cheryl

Edited to ad the bit I forgot to add

Gor is a world forever unchanging, a world where the status quo rules, where the Priest Kings insect mentality for order and stability has ovecome the Kurs chaos and destruction. It is an impossible world, a fantasy world, a world to look at and see possibilities, to contrast with our own, but it cannot be our own as our world constantly changes in spite of peoples desire to keep it unchanging.

Gor cannot change we cannot stop changing.

Cheryl

< Message edited by Cherylmazana -- 12/31/2011 2:51:12 AM >

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RE: Enslavement from my own Gorean perspective - 12/31/2011 7:27:58 AM

starshineowned

Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

quote:

That being said though..isn't this about not being the status quo?

Wow starshine, you did not get that from the books, the books are filled with examples of laws and the Priest Kings keeping Gor in stasis. The various regions of Gor are xenophobic to an astonishing degree.

John Norman is a satirist he says one thing and shows another to show the falacy of rigid thinking, he says as Tarl that Earth is too soft and Gor too harsh. He uses them both as extreme examples, the weak and useless Earth men, the proud honourable and strong Goreans.

He then shows that all Goreans are not honourable and not all from Earth are weak

Its the same with is slavery, all women are slaves apart from those who ar not

He creates an absolute and then destroys it, you are supposed to lean from what is shown not from what is said

In effect it is the opposite from the old cliche do as I say not as I do, with John Norman it is do as I do not how I say.

Cheryl

Edited to ad the bit I forgot to add

Gor is a world forever unchanging, a world where the status quo rules, where the Priest Kings insect mentality for order and stability has ovecome the Kurs chaos and destruction. It is an impossible world, a fantasy world, a world to look at and see possibilities, to contrast with our own, but it cannot be our own as our world constantly changes in spite of peoples desire to keep it unchanging.

Gor cannot change we cannot stop changing.

Cheryl

Indeed Mistress..the status quo wasn't meant to say the Gor world in writing did not have their own likeness of sorts to other cultures for things being the same yet different. It was more a search of "okay" so then after examining these things from earth perspectives and then Gor perspectives...what do you do differently based on your example of "do what I do...not what I say"? How do you go about extracting and then examining what you know here, and what you've read about this fantasy world and come to some conclusion change within yourself might be in order, at the very least looked at from time to time..(self reflection).

If he states things like earth is to soft and Gor is to harsh, and then proceeds to show through Tarl that this isn't always the case or rigid..then what is the reader/person left with to discover or contemplate on or about? It just seems this style of saying this (whatever this might be) and then showing "this is not always true" makes it appear that Norman himself might feel something isn't right but has not any real answer as to what might be right. In effect searching himself but not really knowing what it is he's searching for.

This isn't really as much about exact words in the books or opinions of what one Gorean thinks Norman was trying to express as much as it is ..what did you as a Gorean walk away with from the experience I suppose. How did you (generalized) change from what you thought Norman was trying to express ..either in thought or actively?

To show the falacy of rigid thinking. What is it that Norman might of been seeing in his own time or via historical research that brought that conclusion for him?

"All women are slaves apart from those who are not" ..expresses what? Can not the same be said about men.."All men are slaves apart from those who are not" and be equally true?

Adding this on: Wow starshine, you did not get that from the books, the books are filled with examples of laws and the Priest Kings keeping Gor in stasis. The various regions of Gor are xenophobic to an astonishing degree. You are expressing Mistress that I did not glean this from what I have read from the books..yet here on this very thread..3 Goreans can not concur exactly about what the purpose of having slavery/slaves was in the books. Yourself, Master Malkinus and Master Bull all 3 gave different accounts as to their purposes that they walked away with from reading the books. So if that is what I did find the books as showing to me (not that I did) ..how could I be wrong?

starshine

< Message edited by starshineowned -- 12/31/2011 7:34:23 AM >

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Post #: 23

RE: Enslavement from my own Gorean perspective - 1/6/2012 9:16:18 AM

Aswad

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Well said, Bull.

For once, I don't think I have anything to add. Pigs shall surely fly.

Health,
al-Aswad.

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We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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Post #: 24