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Theft - 1/29/2012 10:09:06 AM   
Ph0enixF1re


Posts: 91
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline 		An interesting post on another thread got me thinking about the concept of the code of Goreans. Essentially, a well respected member of the community here stated that theft, in any form was strictly against the Gorean code and that anyone who would consider theft should run from the community as fast as they could. So, as a discussion point, depending on the caste that you associate with, is theft ok?

There are numerous examples of theft in the books. From the theft of a slave, to the pirates that ply Thassa, to the theft of freedom when a free woman is taken, or the theft of a Home Stone as a legitimate tactic between city states. All seem to hinge on the idea that if you are powerful enough, and can back up the theft with your sword, that it is part of the societal fabric and not against any particular code. Basically, if you have the power to take, then that is accepted in Gorean Society.

Now, here in the real world, we accept that theft is bad and that societal norms dictate that we don't steal. Goreans tend to have a finer sense of honor as a whole and incorporate that sense of honor in their daily lives, but is it really based on the stories, or is it something we hold ourselves to because of the romantic notions and the wish to "Live to a higher code?"

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RE: Theft - 1/29/2012 10:40:49 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16619
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		You are misunderstanding the original point.

Responsibility for your actions was the point. It's the "Well, it's not REALLY theft" bullshit that's antithetical.

And btw, "Hey, it's OK, you're in the Thieves Guild," didn't happen on Gor either.

Probably a waste to time to yet again get into the difference between fiction settings to work out challenges to established societal norms and copying literally those explanations as recommendations...so I'll leave it at the above.

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RE: Theft - 1/29/2012 10:48:14 AM   
Ph0enixF1re


Posts: 91
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline 		nope, I didn't miss the original point...I never said that it isn't really theft...it is. The statement was made that theft is against the Gorean code of ethics, which based on the fictional setting, it clearly is not. Rather, if taking something because you have the power to do so is accepted, why do we (other than in regard to the consequences) shy away from that ethos? It's a personal ethos, rather than something that is endemic to the "Gorean ethos," is more to my point.

_____________________________

Absolute power corrupts absolutely...But it absolutely ROCKS!!!!!

Holier than thou and yes...Better than you.

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RE: Theft - 1/29/2012 10:53:14 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16619
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		No, you entirely missed what I just said. You asked about another thread, and that's what was said there.

Further, I just clarified, and you simply ignored it and repeated the original point.

Enjoy the merry-go-round. Here's my stop. Have fun!

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Gorean FAQ Threads

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RE: Theft - 1/29/2012 1:46:04 PM   
DominantHunger


Posts: 57
Joined: 5/11/2009
Status: offline 		I haven't read the referenced thread, and I am not Gorean, but I am interested in learning what the Gorean view is on this subject. Is anyone willing to address the OP's questions for the benefit of a curious lurker?



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My mind has wandered, the man just said so.
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RE: Theft - 1/29/2012 2:16:43 PM   
Domminde


Posts: 54
Joined: 9/15/2007
Status: offline 		You're average upstanding and well heeled Gorean would, by all mean look down upon any form thievery in his city. Most certainly his own purse should be closely gaurded as the young lady with the cropped ear passes near. Much the same as any civilization, however, punishment might seem excessive by earth standards.

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RE: Theft - 1/29/2012 4:12:45 PM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1584
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: online 		Greetings Ph0enixF1re.....

The point that I am not sure you are understanding about the books is that theft within a community was considered a crime even if you were a member of the Thieves Guild of Port Kar, the only city with such a guild. Thieves were still criminals even if a guild member. However, theft from what amounted to another country was not considered a crime by your home city even tho it was a crime in the city you stole things from. So...theft is always a crime on Gor...it is just condoned in certain situations. It is sort of like some pirates were privateers only because they had a letter from a government allowing them to attack the ships of a country with which they were at war. The second country still considered them criminals, but not quite of the same class as the pirates that stole from everyone.

In the Gorean community here on Earth, we consider theft within our community...or theft within our country to be a crime. The one theft we keep hounding people about is the theft of the Gorean books due to illegal online copies. Over the years we have heard all the excuses for stealing them from they were not in print to they could not be found to they could be found but were too expensive. Now they are all in print, available both in used copies, new hard copies and electronic copies. All the old excuses, which we never did accept, are gone. Not wanting to pay for something is not and never has been an excuse for theft.

Be well....

Malkinius

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RE: Theft - 1/30/2012 6:24:11 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Personally I think it's important to always remember that it is the philosophic aspect we seek to extract from the actions of the story book characters. Simply behaving as they do seems a bit disingenuous and at times even a bit ludicrous.

Take the tribes of the Barrens, it is stated they often warred amongst one another. I suspect that like our own Plains Indians, death was seldom the goal. But battle kept the warriors sharp and the tribes honest, so to speak.

Much the same can be seen in the actions of the thief. With him around most individuals will remain vigilant and on guard. So from the Gorean perspective the thief provides balance within life’s cycle, and I would hope we all know how important natural balance is within the Gorean Condition.

This honor and spite dilemma isn’t all that difficult, one’s trash is another man’s treasure. Who exactly defines what thievery, hasty appropriation or the valid acquisition of any said commodity will be. Not all societies function or consider things the same way and to impose our brand of thought in all cases will, at times, lead us to false or misleading conclusions.

The thief wasn’t considered to be very high on the Gorean food chain, though he was considered. That in itself should leave us with a good deal to consider.

Another worthy consideration of balance is that the Western World has become lazy, arrogant and overly confident in their standing and it will cost us a great deal more as time passes. It appears that our demon, the Eastern Block (who by the way seen the west as the demon or the Great Satan, as do the Muslim folk now) served a more valued purpose rather than just the development of a vast nuclear arsenal. Just a thought.

Good luck and remain open minded.


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: Theft - 1/30/2012 9:57:25 AM   
Ph0enixF1re


Posts: 91
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline 		Taking this out of the context of intellectual theft, since it's such a gray area (more on this later), are we saying that depending on who you steal from, it's acceptable? So from the examples I gave, stealing from another city or tribe is ok, but stealing from one of your own city is not, are we not injecting the idea of moral relativity? Certainly the person robbed will not see it this way, but in context, some thefts are justified. Warriors proved their worth and "won" a slave by stealing her. Obviously, we don't do this, but why is this moral relativity accepted?

On a different note, the same thread I originally referred to, mentioned used books...since the author does not receive any compensation, isn't this another form of theft of the intellectual property?

_____________________________

Absolute power corrupts absolutely...But it absolutely ROCKS!!!!!

Holier than thou and yes...Better than you.

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RE: Theft - 1/30/2012 12:01:12 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16619
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

used books...since the author does not receive any compensation, isn't this another form of theft of the intellectual property?


No. It's transference of ownership, not duplication of goods.

If you steal the design for Toyota's Prius and start selling discounted knock-offs yourself, expect legal action. If you sell your used Prius to a new owner, that's fine. That you enjoyed many a fine ride to remember is yours to keep. And you're welcome to your memories of your sold used books. Now, if you duplicated them to profit from distribution, that's illegal.

quote:

are we saying that depending on who you steal from, it's acceptable?

I don't think anyone said that, but rather, that people historically and in fiction have made that case.

"Surely you know, Bran Loort," said Thurnus, "it is the duty of a slave girl to be fully and completely pleasing to men. Were she not so she would be subject to severe punishment, including even torture and death, should it be the master's wish."
"We took her without your permission," said Bran Loort.
"In this," said Thurnus, "you have committed a breach of code."
"It does not matter to me," said Bran Loort.
"Neither a plow, nor a bosk, nor a girl may one man take from another, saving with the owner's saying of it," quoted Thurnus.
"I do not care," said Bran Loort.
"What is it, Bran Loort, that separates men from sleen and larls?" asked Thurnus.
"I do not know," said Bran Loort.
"It is the codes," said Thurnus.
"The codes are meaningless noises, taught to boys," said Bran Loort.
"The codes are the wall," said Thurnus.
"I do not understand," said Bran Loort.
"It is the codes which separate men from sleen and larls," said Thurnus. "They are the difference. They are the wall."
Slave Girl of Gor Book 11 Pages 226 - 227

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Gorean FAQ Threads

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RE: Theft - 1/30/2012 2:42:55 PM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1711
Status: offline 		Hello,

This subject has touched me very closely in the past few days.  Sadly my credit card information stolen, and was used to purchase over $400.00 worth of goods from various vendors.  I canceled my card, have filled out all the appropriate paperwork, and contacted the one business where my credit card was used to purchase goods.   When I explained my situation to them, they sympathized but could not give me the address to where the goods were shipped.   It was too late to stop the order, it had already been processed and shipped.    They also advised if they were to receive a subpoena, they would supply all the information.

I understand I am not out the money, I will get it credited back to my account.  The bank, and specifically the credit card company covers 100%, and they are out the money.  I asked what could I do?  My bank told me, there is not much you can do, this happens quite often.  I even questioned about filling out a police report (to get a subpoena), and  told, you can, but it still won't do you any good.

I wonder if this is how authors feel when their material is stolen via the web.  Angry, violated, impotent.

Elizabeth



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RE: Theft - 1/31/2012 9:01:40 AM   
Ph0enixF1re


Posts: 91
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline 		Music,
Thanks for a well thought out response. I'm not sure of the quote since I have to read it in context. In the larger context, my statement was that if you were to steal a slave from another city that you held no loyalty towards, you would be committing a praise worthy act. Does this logical dissonance cause issues in the overall definition of Gorean codes?

Your used book analogy demonstrates why intellectual property is a hard nut to crack. Duplication doesn't seem to be the issue under the RPAA (or is it RCAA?) but rather the ability of technology to easily share intellectual property and thus deprive the rightful owner of his property rights. In the case of posting it on line (assuming I bought it from a legitimate ebook site), am I not just sharing my ownership with the community? I fully understand that this is looked at as theft, rightly so, but the line of reasoning follows from the assumption that ownership can be transferred of any good, or given away if the owner feels like it...and how many people he makes it available to is immaterial.

Again, not justifying or accepting, just pointing out that the logical chain leads to that conclusion.

_____________________________

Absolute power corrupts absolutely...But it absolutely ROCKS!!!!!

Holier than thou and yes...Better than you.

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RE: Theft - 1/31/2012 10:58:52 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16619
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

In the case of posting it on line (assuming I bought it from a legitimate ebook site), am I not just sharing my ownership with the community?


No...you are publishing it.

Making something "public" is "publishing."

Sharing and crediting portions of a work is fair use--like the quoted portions above. Posting an entire work is very different.

Don't get too hung up on "they had them in the books"; they had Assassins in the books too, with a much more widespread Caste. Would you make similar points regarding assassination?

Additionally, the existence of a Caste doesn't imply legal sanction or even popular support. We have organized crime on earth--but not a culture acceptance, despite the institution of the Mob.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/31/2012 11:02:34 AM >

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

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RE: Theft - 1/31/2012 11:37:42 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 37477
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Hup the fool, caste of digital assassins approves this message, silently and stealthily.

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RE: Theft - 1/31/2012 1:07:26 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 1337
Joined: 2/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ph0enixF1re

...lots of text and such as an excellent preamble and then two questions...



quote:

So, as a discussion point, depending on the caste that you associate with, is theft ok?

No.

quote:

Goreans tend to have a finer sense of honor as a whole and incorporate that sense of honor in their daily lives, but is it really based on the stories, or is it something we hold ourselves to because of the romantic notions and the wish to "Live to a higher code?"]

It is not based on the stories. The stories will not produce a man who lives to a higher code where no man like this existed before.

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When her will bends to yours she will blossom like a flower under the warm spring rain and bright radiant morning star. She will surrender her all to you and lay in your arms thankful to join her soul with yours, her Master.

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RE: Theft - 2/2/2012 4:35:27 PM   
focalss


Posts: 37
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		First buying a second hand book isn't theft of intellectual property, the author has received payment from either the publisher or his share when the book is sold. It's called the first sale doctrine.

Second "It is the codes which separate men from sleen and larls," said Thurnus. "They are the difference. They are the wall."  No, as a literary device the "voyages of acquisition" don't separate men from animals.  The acquisition is nothing more than "kidnapping."

What if Loort wants to enslave Thurnus.  Nothing stops either one of them from trying or fighting to the death.Why is abducting a woman and making her a slave any different from enslaving Thurnus or stealing Thurnus' plow?  Unless maybe Thurnus is against slavery.  But he is just against his being a slave not against other people being his slaves.

So what if Loort acquired or took Thurnus' plow and sold it in another city, would that be praiseworthy?



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RE: Theft - 2/3/2012 8:28:02 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

No, as a literary device the "voyages of acquisition" don't separate men from animals.


Men had no space travel capability. Giant Insects (Priest-Kings) used voyages of acquisitions.

So yeah, as a literary device, quite sharply separates the men and the animals.

The Kurii, of course, could visit Earth to snatch some snatch...but then, Kurii are large beasts again, not men.



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RE: Theft - 2/3/2012 8:18:18 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Goreans obeyed the laws of their land, if they chose not to they were caught and punished. The punishment they received differed depending on where in Gor they lived.

If you broke the law and were caught you paid the penalty, and if you were a thief and you never got caught you were either applauded or looked upon with distain depending on the people you associate with.

We obey the laws of our land, if we do not we are caught and punished according to the laws of our country.

If you download illegal books you will either have your friends look at you with distain or ask where you got it so they can also do it, and again that depends on the people you associate with.

Most children steal, as adults you grow out of it as you realise the long term consequences both to you and the people/business you steal from.

You can use the books to justify stealing by saying you are a thief, but all that really means is you are a thief: IE you steal things from others, you take what they have worked for. It’s no different than stealing from shops, or burglary, or taking someone’s purse. If you get caught you will pay the penalty, if you get away with it other thieves will applaud you, and those who do not believe in thievery will not.

It’s quite simple really. If you really need it explaining I think you need to look at yourself and consider the type of person you are.

Cheryl


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RE: Theft - 2/4/2012 10:33:12 AM   
Ph0enixF1re


Posts: 91
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline 		There really was a bigger question in here...it wasn't focused on the theft of the books. To sum up: If it's ok (in the fictional Gorean code) to steal a woman (either slave or free), why are theives so looked down upon? How do we solve the logical dichotomy that this idea presents?

_____________________________

Absolute power corrupts absolutely...But it absolutely ROCKS!!!!!

Holier than thou and yes...Better than you.

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RE: Theft - 2/4/2012 5:34:43 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ph0enixF1re

There really was a bigger question in here...it wasn't focused on the theft of the books. To sum up: If it's ok (in the fictional Gorean code) to steal a woman (either slave or free), why are thieves so looked down upon? How do we solve the logical dichotomy that this idea presents?


I believe my initial explanation should have made it simple enough even with my cryptic style of composition. But let's try again.

Don't assume you are allowed to apply any brand of logic from our current societal templates.

The majority of our current western societies, as well as a few less “advanced” worldly cultures live closer to, if not altogether within the parameters of the proverbial slave’s morality; at least more so than within that of a master’s morality. And as has been discussed in no small measure, the Gorean Morality is well defined as that of a master’s morality. A slave mindset within the Gorean context will simply not flourish and will in fact be subjugated and at that, find itself held in its proper place. And considering this further, it is possible the same is taking shape within our own world as we speak.

Back to the point. While I find nothing wrong with societal law or an official common public legality, I do find the construct of such only necessary within an assemblage of persons that are unable to define themselves with any acceptable degree of personal accountability or if one dare say it, honorable existence. Yes I am well aware that honor is at best and at times merely a subjective and inconsistent concept. But, generally speaking common ideals of valor and worthy merit with reference to social cohesion tend to remain consistent within cultures of likeminded individuals.

With reference to your OP, you’d first have to define just what thievery will be defined as by means of your question. With a man I respect and have confidence in I find no fault in his, at times unsolicited use of a tool or item of clothing, if you will. I have friends that borrow things and are even known to take a good deal of time in the return of said articles. Now if someone I didn’t know or like did the same, well, you can imagine.

Within a society where honor is not defined or expected and the utilization of synthetic legal parameters that protect the weak from themselves or someone “superior” you cannot expect men to be respectful of another man’s property. No realistic state of social accountability is ever able to be mandated simply by means of an artificial and often unnatural system of checks and balances. If you or your offspring are honorless, punishment is not a credible or even effective deterrent.

Note that only those that certainly would be slaves or those that would be subjugated by those stronger in a society such as the Gorean example are the ones that condemn an openly undefined concept of pilferage. What is a thief and what truly defines such. We could all be seen as thieves in the eyes of another if the concept would be twisted far enough.

Our present society is that of a slave. To truly find a free man is a rarity. I’m sorry to have to bring this to your attention, but most of you are slaves. No you may not wear a collar or openly submit aloud to your master, but you all stand by and watch your freedom be withdrawn and your futures defined by another. Hmmmm, I wonder if that might be defined as theft or the renunciation of another or even one’s self.

I hope that someone is following my madness. You see it's time to take your sword and set the limits of others or have yours set for you. If you cannot defend your daughters they were never yours to begin with, if you cannot defend yourself, you to belong to another.

So if someone now feels themselves capable of defining thievery for me, please do so. I’m all ears, but I assure you that I will have more questions than you will have answers for in the end.

A republic, if you can keep it. A rule of law, if you need it.


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Ph0enixF1re)
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