Rapture
Posts: 808
Joined: 12/27/2004
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And a good morning to you Thadius...
I do realize this post is getting quite long but to keep the context...the same is quoted.
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Evening Rapture,
"It would be my personal choice to act outside of the laws that I know are in place. Just as with others they choose to act upon impulse or whatever motivation, letting emotion overtake them."
Rapture~~Exactly, even within the ethos but illegal.
"Ah but we are talking about things that were done by men in the novels."
Ah but we are not.
"Again you tiptoe around the issue."
Rapture~~ Nope. -
"It would be my personal choice to act outside of the laws that I know are in place. Just as with others they choose to act upon impulse or whatever motivation, letting emotion overtake them."
Rapture ~~Exactly, even within the ethos but illegal."
"Actually allowing my emotions to override my moral convictions would not be acting within the ethos.."
Your moral convictions are not anyone elses but yours to either uphold or to falter from. Like Honor, said moral convictions are personal in nature, noone takes it nor gives it but yourself. Do you not recall within the Ethos, what was sought was beyond codes (to paraphrase)?
Your as with others moral convictions per se start and stop or are limited by only by someone elses "sword". This is also your and their respective choice to limit "you".
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Allowing another to take control of my actions is acting against that which I believe.
Do you not recall I believe in book 11 vengence of a slave and that of a Man ? His right over her for what she did to him (Clitus (sp))? A choice yes, but perfectly within his right as a Man to do so...by his own hand and his choice to do it.
Further, what one believes in, is most commonly overriden by your survival or the survival of someone else in which you would otherwise wish to assist to survive. This is a natural state.
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Your claim that because it is in the novels it is part of the philosophy is faulty. Which code endorses breaking the law? This is the fourth or fifth time now that I will ask which of the tenets of the philosophy is illegal?
Actually all through the books Tarl and others broke laws of the various cities to promote their end goal, to survive, and to gain. Because they simply could do so. I am sure by doing so they surely were not respecting as you would believe respect should be afforded. Simply again, you could not respect in the way you purport and survive, not even here. Someone will get their respective toes stepped on.
A part of any type of logical agrument is a one party opening the door, the other party refuting, then the burden of "proof" shifts from the first party to the second to show that the first party is incorrect. Then there is a rebuttle of the second. This is how it kinda sorta works in the real world yet seldom on these forums.
Instead Thadius, perhaps you should show us all where your requirements as you have purported are within the Ethos. Simply, I do not think you can...
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Now now..no personal attacks Thadius.
Interesting enough in your various posts you have yet to really nail down what you are comparing my comments to. Perhaps some specificity on your part is in order?
The evidence that I have is that you have said I am incorrect in your various responses. Then again, I am still waiting for you to prove what you say is correct.
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Rapture ~~~Many do go by labels, however Gor is a label, as with Gorean to describe . . . As with Koroba a label for a fictional city, as with San Francisco a label to describe place...
Hmmm, I thought I had been rather specific. Let me try harder then. You have said:
Rapture~~~You can decide that surely, you can advise her accordingly, she can even follow the same as best she can. However, when faced with someone who cares not about the ramifications of society or any from you, she would be doing of a couple of things. 1) she would be giving it up because she really wants to; 2) she would be giving it up willingly so that she is not hurt; 3) she would fight and more than likely loose and give it up; or 3) run as fast as she can, but if caught, see #1, #2 or #3.
Further, what you impose per se is not binding on anyone else anyhow, there is not rule, ethos, or otherwise that someone is required to follow your restrictions. Zero. They may respect them, but that respect is optional (and no their is no breach of Honor so dont go there because noone has agreed to follow your restrictions and thus nothing to breach).
Do not miscontrue... Actually a person could do as the they wanted to do to your girl or anyone's elses. However, would society be upset at those actions? Would you and perhaps her be upset at those actions? Yes. Nonetheless, somecone COULD do it, and would be within the gorean ethos yet the same COULD also be illegal as to what society would otherwise dictate. You certainly cannot be around all the time.
Even, theives were 110% Gor, as with slaves being thieves themselves both being both slave and gor.
...
and locks are to attempt to limit those who usually think outside the box.
Rapture
....
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Just a few quick tid bits, since you asked. While these are not the end all and be all, they definitely touch on such things... Then again, codes and laws are just societies way of fighting nature according to one of your earlier posts, I didn't take the time to find it, but I can if need be (and it hasn't been censored). I just remember you saying something along the lines of you can take whatever you wish regardless of the laws, and that 911 was a crutch.
....
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“Surely you know, Bran Loort,” said Thurnus, “it is the duty of a slave girl to be fully and completely pleasing to men. Were she not so she would be subject to severe punishment, including even torture and death, should it be the master’s wish.”
“We took her without your permission,” said Bran Loort.
“In this,” said Thurnus, “you have committed a breach of code.”
“It does not matter to me,” said Bran Loort.
“Neither a plow, nor a bosk, nor a girl may one man take from another, saving with the owner’s saying of it,” quoted Thurnus.
“I do not care,” said Bran Loort.
“What is it, Bran Loort, that separates men from sleen and larls?” asked Thurnus.
“I do not know,” said Bran Loort.
“It is the codes,” said Thurnus.
“The codes are meaningless noises, taught to boys,” said Bran Loort.
“The codes are the wall,” said Thurnus.
“I do not understand,” said Bran Loort.
“It is the codes which separate men from sleen and larls,” said Thurnus. “They are the difference. They are the wall.”
Slave Girl of Gor Book 11 Page 226
I sensed that the codes were to be invoked. What Bran Loort and his fellows had done exceeded the normal rights of custom, the leniencies and tacit permissions of a peasant community; commonly the codes are invisible; they exist not to control human life, but to make it possible. The rapes of Verr Tail and Radish, interestingly, had not counted as code breaches, though in neither case had explicit permission for their conquest been granted by Thurnus; such permission, in such cases, was implicit in the customs of the community; it did not constitute a “taking from” but a brief use of, an “enjoyment of,” without the intent to do injury to the honor of the master; “taking from,” in the sense of the code is not, strictly, theft, though theft would be “taking from.” “Taking from,” in the sense of the codes, implies the feature of being done against the presumed will of the master, of infringing his rights, more significantly, of offending his honor. In what Bran Loort had done, insult had been intended. The Gorean peasant, like Goreans in general, has a fierce sense of honor. Bran Loort had known exactly what he had been doing.
Slave Girl of Gor Page 228
~~smiles. Surely disrespected him...
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I will wrap this up because it is getting late and I want to make sure my point is made.
Perhaps, it is a flaw in me that I expect more of a man that calls himself Gorean, than one that does not.
...interesting if you look at history the Romans were not merely defeated by the Barbarians, the Romans thinking themselves higher and most grand defeated themselves and fell pray to nature-their own greed and egos.
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You claim that any man can do anything he wishes and that would be well within the ethos. If this is true, then why call yourself Gorean? As that would hold true for every man walking on the Earth. If any act that a man can conceivably commit would fall under the Gorean philosophy, what difference is there between a Gorean and non-Gorean? Absolutely none.
Do I call myself Gorean? Not one thing tells you this in my profile, in my words here, nor in my conduct. To call yourself something is one thing, TO BE something is much much much more profound and distinctly different. To be called something someone may or may not be it, but if that person or persons ARE IT is again distinctly different.
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To the issue involved in the original post, it would seem that if a man was a guest in another man's house there are certain codes and rules that are implied, whether spoken or invisible. Too, that a man that is a guest in another man's house should honor those, or he would be directly insulting the honor of his host. The taking of another man's property without his permission (implied or spoken) would be considered theft.
Only limited by each's others "sword".
"You cannot punish me!" she cried. "You are not my masters! Any free person can punish an errant slave girl," I said. "Surely you do not think that her behavior fails to be subject to supervision and correction as soon as she is out of her Master's sight?"
Magician of Gor p.225
"`What do you think should be her punishment ?' asked Callimachus of me.`If she is guilty,' I said, `whatever you wish, as she is a slave.' This was in full accord with Gorean law. Indeed, anything, for whatever reason, or without a reason, may be done to a slave." Guardsman of Gor p.115
Of course the above would otherwise be disrespectful of your wishes.....but within the ethos that is more commonly known as Gor or Gorean. As with the Bran Loot quote, she was used perfectly within his right and within the Ethos, yet taken issue with her owner (as you have said you might do yourself); this being the owners right to seek compensation per se.
“Any free man may discipline an insolent or errant slave,' I said, `even one who is the least bit displeasing, even one he might merely feel like disciplining. If she is killed, or injured, he need only pay compensation to her master, and that only if the master can be located within a specific amount of time and requests such compensation.
In virtue of such customs and statutes the perfect discipline under which Gorean slaves are kept is maintained and guaranteed even when they are not within the direct purview of their masters or their appointed agents.”--pg. 235 Players of Gor
So, again, your wishes need not be followed by any Man here if he so chooses not to follow them. To follow them, your wishes in regards to your property, is his choice. Each choice we make however has possible ramifications or as I have said consqueneces. These consquences may or may not invoke the consquences of society at large. Yet, perfectly within his right to do if he so choses to do them.
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We as Goreans do our best to live our lives as freely as possible, enjoying all of the gifts that nature has bestowed upon us. It is when we begin to believe we are above nature and the codes, that issues arise. Surely, there are many interpretations of what the books contain. Some agree that there are certain virtues that make up the philosophy, while others think that the books are more about the M/s dynamic. While there may or may not ever be a consensus as to what is contained in the 26 volumes, it is clear that there is more than just a "Fuck the world and do as you like" message contained in them.
I dunno, in the many real life emergency situations I have been in, with people who didnt give a rats ass about codes, laws, or what have you, I was not worried about being sued, or about I was invading their sensabilities; I surely did wish to go home each night. If you did worry about being sued or what have you, you wouldnt be going home or you or someone else in your charge wouldnt be....
I do not know your experience in such matters but I do know mine.
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Just as a side note... I remember reading an estimation of the slaves in one of the books and cannot remember which it was in... but it was along the lines of 1 out of every 40-50. Seems hardly likely that most lives were focused on the owning of a slave.
This is a different issue.
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Good night,
Thadius
P.S. Rapture. My personal opinions may sometimes affect a paragraph or so when addressed to you, but they are far from attacks. As I am sure you have noticed, I am not shy about speaking my mind on any issue.
As with mine...nor am I shy....especially to ponder and/or ask or purport the tough questions and/or answers.
Rapture
< Message edited by Rapture -- 3/14/2007 8:40:03 AM >
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RE: Sharing Slaves - 
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