Collarchat.com

Create a
Free Account
As the Collar Turns:
Collarchat.com - BDSM Forum

Home  Login  Search 
Espanol  Deutsch  Francais  Italiano  Portugues 

Antisemiticism on the collarme boards.


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Feisty Dialog] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/16/2013 11:53:23 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 11799
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
I must be the odd man out. I have friends that are Israeli and friends that are Palestinians. Now I am not going to say what each side is doing is the right thing to do, but I can see where each side has their justification for the actions their peoples have taken over the years.

Here is the problem.

I have come across people who are so blindly against Israel that they wont even look at sources that prove there are two sides to the problem.

IN 1948, the UN established TWO homelands in Palestine.



Now the problem is that only one side accepted this and that was Israel. Immediately after the formation of the Nation of Israel, it was attacked by its Arab neighbors.

In fact Israel was attacked by several countries each time in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1974 and the goal of those attacks was to erase Israel from the map.

Now there is hypocrisy involved in these attacks on Israel for its recent activities.

In the case of each person that have made anti Israel or anti Semitic arguments, their own country has a history of ethnic oppression of indigenous people, which in many ways is still going on. They seem to rejoice in the deaths of Israeli civilians and mourn the deaths of Palestinians who die in the reprisal attacks.

I wish to point out a given historic, albeit borderline on myth, reason that the favoring of one over the other is not only stupid, but makes no sense.

The Jews, Palestinians and Arabs claim one patriarch as the father of their races, that patriarch being Abraham.

The good news is that the genetics of Arabs and Jews have been pretty extensively researched. The classic study dates to 2000, from a team lead by Michael Hammer of University of Arizona. They looked at Y-chromosome haplotypes - this is the genetic material passed from father to son down the generations.

What they revealed was that Arabs and Jews are essentially a single population, and that Palestinians are slap bang in the middle of the different Jewish populations (as shown in this figure).

so there is some scientific proof to the common patriarch belief.

But what I cant wrap my head around is how people can condemn the Israelis for doing things that are in their own national history.

People on both sides are dieing, and that is a tragedy.

What is worse is that genetically, they are all related to each other.

_____________________________

"Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?

"Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 12:19:35 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline
People on both sides are dieing, and that is a tragedy.

And people are profitting from people on both sides dying... and that is a sickness.


_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 12:39:16 AM   
liks2plzlf


Posts: 390
Joined: 7/21/2005
Status: offline
Jer 23:6

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 1:13:24 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 11799
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

People on both sides are dieing, and that is a tragedy.

And people are profitting from people on both sides dying... and that is a sickness.




True. Capitalism at its finest.

I got an email from a friend of mine who is retired Israeli army. His youngest daughter, 25 was walking to work today when she was hit in the head by a rock thrown by Palestinian teens protesting, she suffered a skull fracture, but the prognosis is good, there may be some minor loss of ability, but time will tell.

A little over a month ago I got word that one of my Palestinian friends was killed by Israeli fire directed at a rocket launcher staged where it was surrounded by civilian homes.

You want to hear the irony, both men knew each other and worked with a group of people from both sides trying to promote a peaceful solution to the situation.

I have told all my friends in the holy land to get the hell out of there, both Israeli and Palestinian, as well as a few Syrian friends to get out of Syria.

Strangely enough, western countries are making it hard for anyone to get visas to get out of the region. Financially I cant do shit to help.

It is sad when you think about it, all this could have been prevented if only both sides would have accepted the UN Partition of Palestine in 1948.

_____________________________

"Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?

"Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 7:40:10 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5064
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
They seem to rejoice in the deaths of Israeli civilians and mourn the deaths of Palestinians who die in the reprisal attacks.

Who's rejoicing in the deaths of Israeli civilians?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
But what I cant wrap my head around is how people can condemn the Israelis for doing things that are in their own national history.

People on both sides are dieing, and that is a tragedy.

What is worse is that genetically, they are all related to each other.

I don't disagree with many of your sentiments on this topic, I just wanted to point out that it's completely reasonable for people to be very strongly against things that are in their own national histories. Personally I'm very against a number of things in US history. To pick a couple at random, oh let's say McCarthyism and the Trail of Tears. I would hope that everyone here is against those things and would speak up against them if they saw them happening again, in their own country or abroad.

Just because evil acts have occurred in the past doesn't make those same acts non-evil in the present or in the future.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 7:46:02 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

In the case of each person that have made anti Israel or anti Semitic arguments, their own country has a history of ethnic oppression of indigenous people, which in many ways is still going on. They seem to rejoice in the deaths of Israeli civilians and mourn the deaths of Palestinians who die in the reprisal attacks.


1. Personally I doubt you have any Palestinian friends but there you go.

2. Criticism of the Israeli state is not anti-semitic although the Israeli government try to claim it is.

3. Indirectly you are justifying the holocaust because you are saying no one from any country which has subjugated people in its history has a right to criticise. Well, if that's the case, what right had the USA or anyone else in condemning the NAZIs for genocide when the USA had a genocidal programme against native Americans.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 8:09:19 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 6164
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

But what I cant wrap my head around is how people can condemn the Israelis for doing things that are in their own national history.

Jlf, you ignore the ongoing Settlement Movement that is encircling Palestinian villages and cities, and diminishes Palestinian land.

You ignore that Palestinians have been driven from their homes in East Jerusalem to make way for new Israeli settlements so that Jerusalem will be completely unavailable to the Palestinians as a Capitol of their nation. Hence, the impossibility of the two state option.

You ignore the ghetto-isation of Gaza.

quote:

In the case of each person that have made anti Israel or anti Semitic arguments, their own country has a history of ethnic oppression of indigenous people, which in many ways is still going on. They seem to rejoice in the deaths of Israeli civilians and mourn the deaths of Palestinians who die in the reprisal attacks.


It is outrageous bullshit for you to equate anti-Israel with anti-Semitic and if you suggest that anyone on this board has rejoiced in the deaths of Israeli civilians.

But, you touched on the essence of the present day problem: the Israeli oppression of indigenous people. The contest between Israel and the Palestinians for land is being waged with an asymmetry of power that favours Israel mightily.

You can keep going back to 1947 all you wish but you ignore the Ottoman history and the mandate history that preceeded that date. The Zionists are interlopers driven by a radical religious zealotry.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 8:18:56 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


Posts: 1226
Joined: 3/3/2009
Status: offline
If I understand mister Jif correctly, he's saying folks don't take the threats 'rael faces seriously nor da pretty savage anti-Semitism in da region.

They excuse it all or totally deny it, an' blame all 'raeli reactions an' their fear on bein' all mean an' such, being born again Nazi's or somefin...

_____________________________

"I had lot's of luck but its all been bad"

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 9:19:28 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 18399
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
You can keep going back to 1947 all you wish but you ignore the Ottoman history and the mandate history that preceeded that date. The Zionists are interlopers driven by a radical religious zealotry.

Actually jews are simply seeking a land that they can call their own where they are not subject to the whims of a larger population that has been proven to hate them enough to commit genocide.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 10:53:15 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5533
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
Well Gosh. Big surprise here but I don't see it the same way at all.

I think the decision in 1948 was fucking stupid. But hey, now we're stuck with it. And honestly, having given Isreal nuclear weapons I'm at a loss what we can do about the whole thing. Talk about taking a bad situation and making it worse. At this point I'd be in favor of simply washing our hands of it all and letting them sort it out as they are able... no aid... no allies... no treaties... nada. Of course... having given Isreal nuclear weapons...

Insofar as any anti-Jewish sentiment I might have.... that is much more closely allied the jewish segment in the global banking community than anything involving geography. No, I don't think "Jews" are bad. I do think bankers are bad though and I think Jews are heavily over-represented in that camp. I don't really know what to make of that but I have no need to make anything of it. I can simply keep my ire firmly focused on the actual target -- the bankers.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 12:11:56 PM   
IgorsHand


Posts: 74
Joined: 12/9/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

If I understand mister Jif correctly, he's saying folks don't take the threats 'rael faces seriously nor da pretty savage anti-Semitism in da region.

They excuse it all or totally deny it, an' blame all 'raeli reactions an' their fear on bein' all mean an' such, being born again Nazi's or somefin...


The problem comes when you steal other peoples homes and colonise their land. Anyone would fight their corner if they have been ethnically cleansed from their home and land.

The dilemma Israel faces is that they want a greater Israel but if they absorb the occupied territiories and its population, into the state of Israel, Jews will be a minority in a few years and Israel would have to become a modern secular state rather than a religious racial state. That is the biggest danger to Israel as a Jewish state, not the extermination of Jewish people in Israel. Just how can the Israelis get rid of the Arabs in their midst in our day and age? It is this dilemma that Israeli leaders don't want to face and why they have scuppered all peace plansa and carry on treating the Arabs in their midst so brutally, they hope if they make life so bad for the Arabs they will just leave but their policy seems to be having the opposite affect. The more the Israelis brutalise the Palestinians, the more they seem to dig their feet in and stay and fight for their freedom and human rights.

< Message edited by IgorsHand -- 1/17/2013 12:13:50 PM >

(in reply to WantsOfTheFlesh)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 12:25:01 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
Also, the more sympathy the Arabs get from most of the western world. You'd think that penny would have dropped by now, really.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to IgorsHand)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 1:35:34 PM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


Posts: 1226
Joined: 3/3/2009
Status: offline
Unfortunately Mr. Igor, its waaay more complicated than dat. Jews were cleasned from their ancient communities all over the Arab world, their lands a multiple of da size of Israel. Israel gave back almost all da land taken in a defensive war. Now they all want two lands for two peoples. Da Pals say da same but they keep a walkin' away, dats da truth. Remember Camp David. Arafat walkin' out an' startin' an Intifada... Two sides to da story, Igor, two sides.

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 1/17/2013 1:38:03 PM >


_____________________________

"I had lot's of luck but its all been bad"

(in reply to IgorsHand)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 1:38:05 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
Of course it's only the Palestinians at fault: it isn't like Israel has refused to recognise or negotiate with Hamas since they were sort of elected by the population of Palestine as its representatives, and prefers to deal with other factions in the hope that this might destabilise hamas' position still further.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to WantsOfTheFlesh)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 1:48:28 PM   
IgorsHand


Posts: 74
Joined: 12/9/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

Unfortunately Mr. Igor, its waaay more complicated than dat. Jews were cleasned from their ancient communities all over the Arab world, their lands a multiple of da size of Israel. Israel gave back almost all da land taken in a defensive war. Now they all want two lands for two peoples. Da Pals say da same but they keep a walkin' away, dats da truth. Remember Camp David. Arafat walkin' out an' startin' an Intifada... Two sides to da story, Igor, two sides.


What has the cleansing of Jews from Arab countries to do with the Palestinians being ethnically cleansed from their homes and land? I accept the Arab countries jumped on an excuse to expell Jews but that is not the fault of the people the Jews ethnically cleansed. That was a crime committed by those Arab countries that expelled jews. What you are doing is a little like blaming the Dutch or Irish for the holocaust. The Arab world is no more homogenous than the european world.

You keep forgetting it is the Palestinians who are subjugated by Israel and any right minded person would accept subjugated people have a right to fight for freedom against their oppressor.

< Message edited by IgorsHand -- 1/17/2013 1:53:52 PM >

(in reply to WantsOfTheFlesh)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 1:51:00 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 11799
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
First, let me make it clear, I am not condoning what is going on in the occupied territories.

IN fact I am not condoning what either side is doing in this situation.

As for whether or not you believe I have Palestinian friends, I could care less. That is not important.

Nor am I saying that the 1948 UN accord was the perfect solution, it was far from it. But someone said it was done and we are stuck with it.

What I am saying is that to condemn Israel alone is not very logical. Too wrongs do not make a right, except in American Politics.

But on these boards I have seen people condemn Israel for retaliating for rocket attacks by shelling the area where the rockets were launched, and in the process killing Palestinian civilians. If the Palestinian militants launching the rockets would place their launchers in areas that are not surrounded by civilian homes, that would not happen, so those militants share some of the blame for non-combatant deaths.

I must also point out that the surrounding Arab countries have repeatedly stated that their goal is to erase Israel from the map, and exterminate the Jewish population, which would tend to make the citizens of any country a bit paranoid.

Some people have said that if Israel would withdrawal to the 67 boundaries, then they would not have a problem with Israel's existence. There are two sets of 67 borders, pre war, and the UN set borders after the 67 war. So which borders are they referring to?

But again, that raises problems, in fact anything that is suggested raises problems. Either Israel does not agree with the solution or the Palestinians do not agree with the suggestions. In other words, nobody in the region can agree on anything.

Nor does the continued support of Israel by western nations help in view of the international condemnation of what Israel is doing. IN my opinion it makes about as much sense as scolding a child for being bad and at the same time handing the child a cookie.

So in essence my suggestion is for Israel to pull back to the pre war 67 borders, and the put a massive international peace keeping force in the region to keep both sides from shooting at each other, and at the same time establish an independent Palestinian state.

There is a problem with this solution, the problem is that the peace keeping force would undoubtedly be there for an extended period of time, and considering there have been UN peacekeepers in the Sinai since the Camp David accords, it would almost be a permanent thing.

My present theory is that the problems in the region will continue until everyone living there ends up as corpses rotting in the sun. But then I am a pessimist.

_____________________________

"Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?

"Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 1:53:28 PM   
IgorsHand


Posts: 74
Joined: 12/9/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

IN fact I am not condoning what either side is doing in this situation.



That is a position taken by pro-Israelis. The Palestinians are a subjugated people and have a right to fight for their freedom from their oppressor. To agree with the status quo is to agree that the subjugation of the Palestinians and the situation in Gaza which is no better than a prison camp.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 2:13:06 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 11799
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IgorsHand


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

IN fact I am not condoning what either side is doing in this situation.



That is a position taken by pro-Israelis. The Palestinians are a subjugated people and have a right to fight for their freedom from their oppressor. To agree with the status quo is to agree that the subjugation of the Palestinians and the situation in Gaza which is no better than a prison camp.



Strange that you did not seem to read the only feasible solution that I could see, which would involve Israel withdrawing to the pre 67 war borders, making their community building sites no longer part of their country.

As far as freedom fighters, strangely enough, I would expect freedom fighters to target military or government installations, not civilians. That seems to change the message from we want our freedom, to we just want to kill every body the hell with fighting a legit war.

_____________________________

"Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?

"Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."

(in reply to IgorsHand)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 2:19:42 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 12541
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

People on both sides are dieing, and that is a tragedy.

And people are profitting from people on both sides dying... and that is a sickness.




Agreed on both counts.

JLF, you get people on both sides refusing to look at the evidence as well.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/17/2013 2:24:40 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Strange that you did not seem to read the only feasible solution that I could see, which would involve Israel withdrawing to the pre 67 war borders, making their community building sites no longer part of their country.

Maybe he can see that as a possible solution but is aware that it's far less likely than the black stone at Mecca being turned into a charcuterie?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Feisty Dialog] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2014
Collarchat.com is a member of the Free Speech Coalition
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.141