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RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/21/2013 6:21:10 AM   
hot4bondage


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Joined: 7/29/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
What appears to have happened in this country is that whole generations have been raised to want to have their cake and eat it, too. But now, we've eaten the cake, gotten fat, and now we're all scratching our heads wondering what happened to the cake.


Reminds me of an old quote that I've been struggling with for a few years.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship."--attributed to Alexander Tytler, unverified

People are called selfish for wanting to keep what's theirs. That accusation sounds reasonable, especially if taken to an extreme. But isn't it a lot more selfish to expect something for nothing? And how in the hell do you convince people to stop accepting free money?

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/21/2013 7:09:32 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
What appears to have happened in this country is that whole generations have been raised to want to have their cake and eat it, too. But now, we've eaten the cake, gotten fat, and now we're all scratching our heads wondering what happened to the cake.

Reminds me of an old quote that I've been struggling with for a few years.
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship."--attributed to Alexander Tytler, unverified
People are called selfish for wanting to keep what's theirs. That accusation sounds reasonable, especially if taken to an extreme. But isn't it a lot more selfish to expect something for nothing? And how in the hell do you convince people to stop accepting free money?


The former were called selfish first. Thus, the latter can't be selfish because the former are, and they aren't the same. Or, something like that.

Government will never stop giving out "free money" because it is in Government's interest to do so. Government will have to be forced to stop giving out "free money."


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to hot4bondage)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/21/2013 11:33:09 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
What appears to have happened in this country is that whole generations have been raised to want to have their cake and eat it, too. But now, we've eaten the cake, gotten fat, and now we're all scratching our heads wondering what happened to the cake.


Reminds me of an old quote that I've been struggling with for a few years.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship."--attributed to Alexander Tytler, unverified

People are called selfish for wanting to keep what's theirs. That accusation sounds reasonable, especially if taken to an extreme. But isn't it a lot more selfish to expect something for nothing? And how in the hell do you convince people to stop accepting free money?

Actually it was De Tocurville (spelled phonetically because being a French name I couldn't get close enough for the computer to correct my spelling)

(in reply to hot4bondage)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/21/2013 1:38:57 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10540
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Well historically speaking, Republics never seem to last for long, there are some exceptions.

Personally, I think the country started going downhill after the Spanish, French, Dutch, English and Scot/Irish showed up.

I mean the Native Americans had a good life going, fighting amongst the tribes, no small pox, and a corner on the tobacco market.

Well except for the tobacco, I and the Indians would agree with you, I think. The trouble is of course, the whites (narrowing it all down) brought gunpowder. There went the neighborhood.

Besides, they had peyote which was much preferred over that stuff that just made you cough but didn't get you high.





< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 2/21/2013 1:39:59 PM >

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/21/2013 1:48:49 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10540
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
What appears to have happened in this country is that whole generations have been raised to want to have their cake and eat it, too. But now, we've eaten the cake, gotten fat, and now we're all scratching our heads wondering what happened to the cake.

Reminds me of an old quote that I've been struggling with for a few years.
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship."--attributed to Alexander Tytler, unverified
People are called selfish for wanting to keep what's theirs. That accusation sounds reasonable, especially if taken to an extreme. But isn't it a lot more selfish to expect something for nothing? And how in the hell do you convince people to stop accepting free money?


The former were called selfish first. Thus, the latter can't be selfish because the former are, and they aren't the same. Or, something like that.

Government will never stop giving out "free money" because it is in Government's interest to do so. Government will have to be forced to stop giving out "free money."


The govt. 'gives' away $trillions every year in special favors or direct payments. It is a return on their investment in votes cast by the largest voting block(s) the elderly is one and also to the largest bidders of campaign cash (free speech) to adjust laws and tax bennies.

America is a 'free' country. We are free to buy whatever we want, including govt. favors. Yet, almost all of us individually cannot afford it...not enough free speech in the bank.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 2/21/2013 2:16:34 PM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/21/2013 2:05:31 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10540
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
What appears to have happened in this country is that whole generations have been raised to want to have their cake and eat it, too. But now, we've eaten the cake, gotten fat, and now we're all scratching our heads wondering what happened to the cake.


Reminds me of an old quote that I've been struggling with for a few years.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship."--attributed to Alexander Tytler, unverified

People are called selfish for wanting to keep what's theirs. That accusation sounds reasonable, especially if taken to an extreme. But isn't it a lot more selfish to expect something for nothing? And how in the hell do you convince people to stop accepting free money?

Actually it was De Tocurville (spelled phonetically because being a French name I couldn't get close enough for the computer to correct my spelling)

I do hope you [all] are not talking about soc. sec. I mean one has to scratch one's head when it comes to soc. sec. being called anything like an entitlement. The American public at large seems is somehow so totally distracted with their partisan bullshit that few want to recall that soc. sec. has been OVER FUNDED and for over 30 years.

Soc. sec. if not for a totally corrupt profligate congress and chief exec. has been overpaid since the great reform of 1983. For [it] to be matter of discussion in America as an entitlement like 'money for nothing' is testimony to a propaganda that is so successful as to render all money a matter of corruption.

The reason Americans don't rise up is because far too many will side with the govt. now and because they are its main beneficiaries and simply won't take the risk.

Such a society will not fall simply because of its fiscal position but because of who that fiscal position benefits and how they will use govt. power everywhere to smash it down.

The Chinese govt. has worries in that suicides over work is a 'tell.' Death being such an easy message could have them in front of the tanks again someday. Plus there are 700 million fast approaching 800 still in abject poverty. Well see...well, you'll see.

I am relying upon you guys here to inform me when Americans begin to kill themselves over their jobs.

Oh, and Tocqueville had it right but it isn't 'the voters' it will be 'the investors' in govt. That govt. will not fall as he would imagine, it will morph into a capitalist fascism. It has already begun to do just that. Still baby steps but none the less...it is coming.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 2/21/2013 2:10:19 PM >

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/22/2013 4:09:53 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
What appears to have happened in this country is that whole generations have been raised to want to have their cake and eat it, too. But now, we've eaten the cake, gotten fat, and now we're all scratching our heads wondering what happened to the cake.


Reminds me of an old quote that I've been struggling with for a few years.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship."--attributed to Alexander Tytler, unverified

People are called selfish for wanting to keep what's theirs. That accusation sounds reasonable, especially if taken to an extreme. But isn't it a lot more selfish to expect something for nothing? And how in the hell do you convince people to stop accepting free money?


I think it's pretty normal for people to be selfish to some degree, but I guess the question is whether people are realistically selfish or unrealistically selfish. Obviously, taxation is a fact of life (just like "death and taxes"), but the question is: How much is too much?

I think the main reason our government gives away free money is for the purpose of political stability. It's easier and cheaper in the long run to just to give out money to the underclass rather than sit around and wait for them to riot and revolt. I can understand the logic behind it; it's not necessarily bleeding heart liberalism that motivates it - although it seems to fall in line with some liberal beliefs. But there's also a certain pragmatism behind it, since the powers that be have to play the percentages and calculate the risk.



(in reply to hot4bondage)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/22/2013 4:27:00 AM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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FR

There's another article that I came across this morning about racism in Japan. I wasn't sure whether I wanted to start another thread about it, but I think I'll put it in this thread, since the topic in this thread is America, our self-image, and how we are perceived by other nations: Article

quote:

Miki Dezaki, who first arrived in Japan on a teacher exchange program in 2007, wanted to learn about the nation that his parents had once called home. He taught English, explored the country and affectionately chronicled his cross-cultural adventures on social media, most recently on YouTube, where he gained a small following for videos like “Hitchhiking Okinawa” and the truly cringe-worthy “What Americans think of Japan.” One of them, on the experience of being gay in Japan, attracted 75,000 views and dozens of thoughtful comments.

Dezaki didn’t think the reaction to his latest video was going to be any different, but he was wrong. “If I should have anticipated something, I should have anticipated the netouyu,” he told me, referring to the informal army of young, hyper-nationalist Japanese Web users who tend to descend on any article – or person – they perceive as critical of Japan.

But before the netouyu put Dezaki in their crosshairs, sending him death threats and hounding his employers, previous employers, even the local politicians who oversee his employers, there was just a teacher and his students.

Dezaki began his final lesson with a 1970 TV documentary, Eye of the Storm, often taught in American schools for its bracingly honest exploration of how good-hearted people – in this case, young children participating in an experiment – can turn to racism. After the video ended, he asked his students to raise their hands if they thought racism existed in Japan. Almost none did. They all thought of it as a uniquely American problem.


The bolded part is interesting to me, since it fits in with what I've been saying about many of these America-bashers and how one-sided (and hypocritical) their attacks on America are. Racism in Japan is pretty well-known in the world, although this article indicates that the Japanese are in denial over it. (This teacher even received death threats from rabid Japanese nationalists who were outraged about his criticisms of Japan.)

Too often, I see this as being the case. The America-bashers can't take criticism as easily as they dish it out. They're all too eager to blame America for all the world's problems, while refusing to look at themselves and their own countries' contributions to the state of the world today.

Japan is a perfect example, since they are responsible (more than any other single nation on Earth) for causing America's foreign policy to shift from isolationism to interventionism. For all of you who are pissed off about America going all over the world and interfering with other countries affairs, overthrowing governments, destabilizing regimes, fixing elections, and military invasions - it can all be traced back to December 7, 1941. It's mostly Japan's fault for how America turned out, since they chose to attack Pearl Harbor and bring a previously neutral country into World War II on the side of the Allies. (Similarly, I would blame Germany for how the USSR turned out, although they were smart enough to eventually realize when enough was enough, while our leadership really hasn't learned that yet.)

quote:


Gently, Dezaki showed his students that, yes, there is also racism in Japan. He carefully avoided the most extreme and controversial cases – for example, Japan’s wartime enslavement of Korean women for sex, which the country today doesn’t fully acknowledge – pointing instead to such slang terms as “bakachon camera.” The phrase, which translates as “idiot Korean camera,” is meant to refer to disposable cameras so easy to use that even an idiot or a Korean could do it.
He really got his students’ attention when he talked about discrimination between Japanese groups. People from Okinawa, where Dezaki happened to be teaching, are sometimes looked down upon by other Japanese, he pointed out, and in the past have been treated as second-class citizens. Isn’t that discrimination?


I've seen similar national rivalries and bigoted attitudes in other countries as well, so if they think that racism exists only in America, they're dead wrong.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/22/2013 5:48:03 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
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To deny racism in America is to deny the iceberg of obvious examples. To deny racism in France, England, Japan, etc. is to deny the tip of the iceberg.

The solution for America is to be less like the past, and that includes less like the older empires.

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/22/2013 8:43:21 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

I think the main reason our government gives away free money is for the purpose of political stability. It's easier and cheaper in the long run to just to give out money to the underclass rather than sit around and wait for them to riot and revolt.

Zonie, can you document this 'bread and circuses' governance in America? Or is this something you pulled out of the air?

Where do you draw the line between helping needy people and giving away "free money?" Or don't you favor helping the needy as a role of governance?

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/22/2013 9:46:43 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I think the main reason our government gives away free money is for the purpose of political stability. It's easier and cheaper in the long run to just to give out money to the underclass rather than sit around and wait for them to riot and revolt.

Zonie, can you document this 'bread and circuses' governance in America? Or is this something you pulled out of the air?

Where do you draw the line between helping needy people and giving away "free money?" Or don't you favor helping the needy as a role of governance?


It seems pretty logical to me. What other reason could there be? Are they doing it just because the ruling class is nice and cares about people? I doubt it.

I favor the government helping the needy, but it's not something that people can necessarily count upon in the years to come. The government is broke, and they may not be able to do it even if they wanted to. I also think that it puts people in a position of dependence.

Besides, when is the government going to give consideration to people who actually work? What people need are decent paying jobs, not handouts. It's better for human dignity that people be able to find decent work with good pay, not mickey mouse dead-end jobs that pay next to nothing. To that end, there needs to be an end to free trade agreements and outsourcing.

Protecting American workers is a far more important role of governance which has been sorely neglected in recent decades.

Likewise, the government needs to make sure that prices are under control, so that we don't have to spend as much on public assistance and food stamps. Same for the healthcare issue. Price controls are the way to go, so that less money is spent to provide the same services to the needy.

There's more than one way to solve the problem and make sure that the needy are provided for, other than just giving out money. If we just bring rents and food prices under control, the government could spend far far less than what we're paying now.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/22/2013 10:59:03 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

I think the main reason our government gives away free money is for the purpose of political stability. It's easier and cheaper in the long run to just to give out money to the underclass rather than sit around and wait for them to riot and revolt.

Zonie, can you document this 'bread and circuses' governance in America? Or is this something you pulled out of the air?
Where do you draw the line between helping needy people and giving away "free money?" Or don't you favor helping the needy as a role of governance?

It seems pretty logical to me. What other reason could there be? Are they doing it just because the ruling class is nice and cares about people? I doubt it.
I favor the government helping the needy, but it's not something that people can necessarily count upon in the years to come. The government is broke, and they may not be able to do it even if they wanted to. I also think that it puts people in a position of dependence.
Besides, when is the government going to give consideration to people who actually work? What people need are decent paying jobs, not handouts. It's better for human dignity that people be able to find decent work with good pay, not mickey mouse dead-end jobs that pay next to nothing. To that end, there needs to be an end to free trade agreements and outsourcing.
Protecting American workers is a far more important role of governance which has been sorely neglected in recent decades.
Likewise, the government needs to make sure that prices are under control, so that we don't have to spend as much on public assistance and food stamps. Same for the healthcare issue. Price controls are the way to go, so that less money is spent to provide the same services to the needy.
There's more than one way to solve the problem and make sure that the needy are provided for, other than just giving out money. If we just bring rents and food prices under control, the government could spend far far less than what we're paying now.


Price controls won't work. Cap the price, and you'll limit the quality and/or availability. Price controls will cause supply/demand Market failures. That's what was behind the 1970's Oil Crisis. That's what was behind the 1990's S&L Crisis. If price controls were that simple of an answer, why does Congress continue to pass "Doc Fix" Bills?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/22/2013 4:25:43 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

It seems pretty logical to me. What other reason could there be? Are they doing it just because the ruling class is nice and cares about people? I doubt it.

I didn't ask for your logic. I asked for documentation. Apparently, you have none.

quote:

I favor the government helping the needy, but it's not something that people can necessarily count upon in the years to come. The government is broke, and they may not be able to do it even if they wanted to. I also think that it puts people in a position of dependence.


The government has huge amounts of assets. It is the budget that is in debt. It can be rectified. American corporations have as much debt as the government budget. Their debt is called "corporate bonds" instead of treasury bonds. But, they too have assets. There are two sides to the ledger.

quote:

Besides, when is the government going to give consideration to people who actually work? What people need are decent paying jobs, not handouts. It's better for human dignity that people be able to find decent work with good pay, not mickey mouse dead-end jobs that pay next to nothing. To that end, there needs to be an end to free trade agreements and outsourcing.


Are you advocating that American corporations should be prevented from manufacturing and selling their products in foreign markets? Do you wish to hobble American enterprise? Would you then have foreign manufacturers close their facilities here in America? Perhaps a trade war is your solution?

quote:

Protecting American workers is a far more important role of governance which has been sorely neglected in recent decades.


One Big Union then?

quote:

Likewise, the government needs to make sure that prices are under control, so that we don't have to spend as much on public assistance and food stamps. Same for the healthcare issue. Price controls are the way to go, so that less money is spent to provide the same services to the needy.


Price control failed under Richard Nixon, and lead to "black market" activities during WW2, doncha know?

quote:

There's more than one way to solve the problem and make sure that the needy are provided for, other than just giving out money. If we just bring rents and food prices under control, the government could spend far far less than what we're paying now.


Did you know that NYC has rent control? Have you priced apartments in Manhatten lately?

Beware unintended consequences. I guess you are not a free market guy, heh?

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/22/2013 5:15:42 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

I think the main reason our government gives away free money is for the purpose of political stability. It's easier and cheaper in the long run to just to give out money to the underclass rather than sit around and wait for them to riot and revolt.

Zonie, can you document this 'bread and circuses' governance in America? Or is this something you pulled out of the air?
Where do you draw the line between helping needy people and giving away "free money?" Or don't you favor helping the needy as a role of governance?

It seems pretty logical to me. What other reason could there be? Are they doing it just because the ruling class is nice and cares about people? I doubt it.
I favor the government helping the needy, but it's not something that people can necessarily count upon in the years to come. The government is broke, and they may not be able to do it even if they wanted to. I also think that it puts people in a position of dependence.
Besides, when is the government going to give consideration to people who actually work? What people need are decent paying jobs, not handouts. It's better for human dignity that people be able to find decent work with good pay, not mickey mouse dead-end jobs that pay next to nothing. To that end, there needs to be an end to free trade agreements and outsourcing.
Protecting American workers is a far more important role of governance which has been sorely neglected in recent decades.
Likewise, the government needs to make sure that prices are under control, so that we don't have to spend as much on public assistance and food stamps. Same for the healthcare issue. Price controls are the way to go, so that less money is spent to provide the same services to the needy.
There's more than one way to solve the problem and make sure that the needy are provided for, other than just giving out money. If we just bring rents and food prices under control, the government could spend far far less than what we're paying now.


Price controls won't work. Cap the price, and you'll limit the quality and/or availability. Price controls will cause supply/demand Market failures. That's what was behind the 1970's Oil Crisis. That's what was behind the 1990's S&L Crisis. If price controls were that simple of an answer, why does Congress continue to pass "Doc Fix" Bills?


Price controls worked just fine to get us out of the Great Depression, through World War II (as the world's leading industrial power), and led to two solid decades of unprecedented prosperity for America.

The oil crisis was the result of an Arab oil embargo because we were supplying arms to their enemy at the time, Israel. Price controls had absolutely nothing to do with that. The S&L crisis was purely due to corruption and greed, and it couldn't be due to price controls anyway, because there weren't any price controls at that time.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/22/2013 5:43:23 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

It seems pretty logical to me. What other reason could there be? Are they doing it just because the ruling class is nice and cares about people? I doubt it.

I didn't ask for your logic. I asked for documentation. Apparently, you have none.


Documentation for what? It's an opinion I was making based on what appears to be self-evident.

I asked you "What other reason could there be?" Since you didn't answer, does that mean that you don't know? And if you don't know, why are you going on like this?

quote:


quote:

I favor the government helping the needy, but it's not something that people can necessarily count upon in the years to come. The government is broke, and they may not be able to do it even if they wanted to. I also think that it puts people in a position of dependence.


The government has huge amounts of assets. It is the budget that is in debt. It can be rectified. American corporations have as much debt as the government budget. Their debt is called "corporate bonds" instead of treasury bonds. But, they too have assets. There are two sides to the ledger.


Even their assets are not inexhaustible. There are limits, you know.

quote:


quote:

Besides, when is the government going to give consideration to people who actually work? What people need are decent paying jobs, not handouts. It's better for human dignity that people be able to find decent work with good pay, not mickey mouse dead-end jobs that pay next to nothing. To that end, there needs to be an end to free trade agreements and outsourcing.


Are you advocating that American corporations should be prevented from manufacturing and selling their products in foreign markets? Do you wish to hobble American enterprise? Would you then have foreign manufacturers close their facilities here in America? Perhaps a trade war is your solution?


These are the kinds of outmoded arguments which dominated the Reagan era, used constantly by Reaganites. Look at America today and where that kind of thinking has brought us.

American corporations can sell their products in foreign markets all they want, but if they want to sell something in America, it should be manufactured here. Foreign manufacturers can have facilities here in America because it would benefit Americans.

quote:


quote:

Protecting American workers is a far more important role of governance which has been sorely neglected in recent decades.


One Big Union then?


You made a reference to the role of governance, and you indicated that helping the needy is a role of governance. To respond to that point, I pointed out another important role of governance which has been badly neglected. I never said anything about one big union.

Why are you so in favor of the government giving money to non-working people, while ignoring the needs of working people?

quote:


quote:

Likewise, the government needs to make sure that prices are under control, so that we don't have to spend as much on public assistance and food stamps. Same for the healthcare issue. Price controls are the way to go, so that less money is spent to provide the same services to the needy.


Price control failed under Richard Nixon, and lead to "black market" activities during WW2, doncha know?


And as I pointed out to DesideriScuri, price controls got us out of the Great Depression, through World War II (and gave us the industrial might to supply other nations as well), and it led to two solid decades of unprecedented prosperity. Yes, there were black market activities during World War II due to rationing, as our industries were geared more for war than consumer products.

Since you asked about documentation earlier, now is my turn to ask you: What documentation do you have to show that price controls failed under Nixon? The Arab oil embargo caused the energy crisis, and the subsequent quadrupling of oil prices led to runaway inflation (which happened more under Ford than Nixon, who was already out of office by that time). Carter also had high inflation during his term, so where were these "failed price controls" that you mention?

quote:


quote:

There's more than one way to solve the problem and make sure that the needy are provided for, other than just giving out money. If we just bring rents and food prices under control, the government could spend far far less than what we're paying now.


Did you know that NYC has rent control? Have you priced apartments in Manhatten lately?


I think that's only for certain properties where rent control was grandfathered in from an earlier era. I think most apartments are not rent controlled nowadays.

I know that rent controls are in Santa Monica, too, but it's only for a few select properties, not for every property. You just have to be lucky to be in the right place at the right time to get a rent-controlled apartment, but they're few and far between.

quote:

Beware unintended consequences. I guess you are not a free market guy, heh?


I am, to a point.

Are you trying to bait me?

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/23/2013 10:27:54 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Are you trying to bait me?

Not at all. Just trying to examine some of your presumptions which seem to be rather sweeping.

quote:

Documentation for what? It's an opinion I was making based on what appears to be self-evident.

I asked you "What other reason could there be?" Since you didn't answer, does that mean that you don't know? And if you don't know, why are you going on like this?

Your position, as I understand it, is that govenment gives out free money to the non-working people but doesn't help the working class. The only money I know about that is given to non-workers is: TANF given mostly to impoverished families with children with the requirement that the adults seek work or job training; SS funds for the disabled; SS funds to retirees; and payments/food stamps to help the temporarily unemployed. So, which free money are you talking about?

For working people there is the Earned Income Tax Credit, worth up to $5,981 for 2012 and is available to anyone who worked even part of the year and earned below a certain limit — for instance, $50,270 for a married couple with three dependent children. It was developed in the 1970s as an effective welfare to work program.

Additionally, the working class and the elderly pay taxes on the lower end of a sliding scale which is a progressive benefit, and would be more progressive if deductions were limited for higher brackets.

I think you are mistaken when you say the government does nothing for the working poor or middle class. Maybe not enough. Two reasons outside your conspiratorial imagination why government aids those who are not working and the working poor: it is the humane thing to do and the money circulates back out into the economy faster than when given to high income earners.

quote:

American corporations can sell their products in foreign markets all they want, but if they want to sell something in America, it should be manufactured here. Foreign manufacturers can have facilities here in America because it would benefit Americans.

Do you not see the explicit tyranny in laws that would require goods sold in our market to be manufactured here? Native manufacturers would have difficulty competing with foreign imports. Would you then require the same of foreign manufacturers ~ that they must make goods in America if they want to sell here? And the backlash from foreign nations who might then require the same in their markets? Maybe I am just confused by your proposal. But, it seems unworkable imo. And, I am not sure it would meet a constitutional test. Does the Federal government really have that power?

ETA: One other thing. It would be helpful if the minimum wage were raised, as championed by the president.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 2/23/2013 10:53:40 AM >

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/23/2013 11:07:50 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
First of all, an opinion without evidence to support it is worthless, it is not even a hypothesis.

As for your "opinion" of price controls and the duration of their use in US History, I suggest your read Price Controls

Sorry, but economists are usually against price controls.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/23/2013 12:29:27 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

First of all, an opinion without evidence to support it is worthless, it is not even a hypothesis.

As for your "opinion" of price controls and the duration of their use in US History, I suggest your read Price Controls

Sorry, but economists are usually against price controls.

Where did I say I favored price controls?

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/23/2013 12:37:13 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

First of all, an opinion without evidence to support it is worthless, it is not even a hypothesis.

As for your "opinion" of price controls and the duration of their use in US History, I suggest your read Price Controls

Sorry, but economists are usually against price controls.

Where did I say I favored price controls?



Did you not say that price controls got us out of the Depression, through WW2 and created the economy in post war America.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Possible solutions for America's problems - 2/23/2013 12:40:52 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

First of all, an opinion without evidence to support it is worthless, it is not even a hypothesis.

As for your "opinion" of price controls and the duration of their use in US History, I suggest your read Price Controls

Sorry, but economists are usually against price controls.

Where did I say I favored price controls?



Did you not say that price controls got us out of the Depression, through WW2 and created the economy in post war America.

No, Zonie said that. I think you are confused, Jlf.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 40
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