Collarchat.com

Join Our Community
Collarchat.com

Home  Login  Search 

RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 4 [5]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/15/2013 8:33:38 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
I think the real answer is that young people have been turned off by churches (when people say the church, they don't necessarily mean the RC, technically 'the church' is all Christians, the body of Christ, etc...) because they don't mean anything to them and their experience. The conservative Churches, including the RC leadership, have turned the faith into being anti gay and anti abortion (tell me, anyone recall any of Pete the Polish Princes minions here in the US, or Derr Pope's minions, threatening politicians with not being able to take communion for cutting funds for the poor, supporting the death penalty or an immoral war like Iraq? Ever see the church censor nuns for not speaking out about the plight of the poor, corporate greed and the like? The answer is no, they censored the nuns because they didn't speak out enough on 'church teaching', which turned out to mean abortion and same sex marriage, and the young people see that.

They are looking for meaning, and all the churches seem to give them is rhetoric and stupidity. Older Catholics, who have been taught that the church is its leaders and they are perfect, will sit there and do nothing while priests molest children and their Bishops routinely covered it up, shifted priests, you name it, then will wonder why young people will say "you have to be kidding me, the Bishops and the Pope are always right? What fucking rock did you grow up under, gramps?". They see the hypocrisy, they see the hate that Christianity has put out there, and they see liberal Christianity, which may be doing good things, sitting their quietly saying about the haters "Oh, we understand your faith". I belonged to a pretty radical episcopal church, and when the whole crap with the Anglican Communion and the uS having a gay bishop (who, btw, had to wear a bullet proof vest at his own induction as Bishop, so much for Christian loving), and the rector of our church telling us we had to understand the African Bishops, that they were converted by White Evangelical Missionaries, I wanted to absolutely throw the SOB through a stained glass window for saying that (among other things, that is blaming their ignorance and hatred on others to deflect; the reality is that African culture is extremely homophobic and hateful, and the whole white guilt crap was a sham)......Young people are better educated despite what the morons say, they are more worldly then we ever were, and they see the hypocrisy and the bullshit.

The interesting part is even though Atheism is growing, the fastest growing group are people who believe in something, but take beliefs from a wide range of sources, the idea that somehow the RC has all the answers rings false, or that the Bible or Jesus represent it all causes cognitive dissonance, and that is how it should be, young people should find their own answers, explore, talk, you name it. The UU would be great, that is basically what it is, but my experience with the UU was a bunch of well educated, upper middle class people, who were nice enough, but kind of were like cats, they were nice enough, but always kind of distant, and the UU churches I was in when my kid was young were not very friendly towards kids, they were amazingly victorian, children should not be seen or heard, except when we give them their 5 minutes......

I think churches are in deep trouble, if the US hadn't been inundated with immigrants from South America, I don't think the RC would have many in their pews. Last numbers showed when the old farts like myself and older, 50+, start leaving this earth, the churches are going to look like Italy, where only 10% of the people go to church regularly..in bloody italy, amazing.

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/15/2013 9:22:01 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

I've actually never met an Atheist in real life who felt they needed to go on a crusade to make other people Atheists. I have also never met an Atheist who presumed I had a single digit IQ and married my cousin just because I believe in God. They must all be on the internet because I've never encountered one in my day to day life LOL

I have encountered a couple of Atheists and agnostics who are bitter....but when they share exactly how they were treated by the church....I kinda don;t blame them, and that is sad.


I wish I could say the same but unfortunately it has not. I've met way tons of atheists and I would say 75% have been the type you described. Now my father became an atheist as he was dying but never once forced his belief on anyone else or even ever talked about it at all. He was always the exception to the rule for the types I came across throughout my life.





_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to cordeliasub)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/16/2013 3:21:55 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
but I have yet to hear of any radical atheists bombing churches or trying to pass laws so that evangelicals are second class citizens...which you cannot say for the other side


<tips hat>



_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/16/2013 3:57:33 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
I've met way tons of atheists and I would say 75% have been the type you described.


How would you know how many atheists you've met that didn't talk about it?

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/16/2013 4:13:12 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
I've met quite a few atheists that seem to get offended because I believe in a higher power. They get all up in arms because I'm "stupid" enough to say grace over my food (I never pray in someone else's house but, I've had a couple object to my praying in MY house! LOL)

I've experienced loud, boisterous verbal attacks about my character, based upon what they think I must believe because I happen to believe in "an invisible dude in the sky".

I don't believe in little green men from Mars but I don't get offended, when someone else does. Funny though, somehow my belief is troubling to the Godless heathens. I wonder why? Is their conviction that weak?

The truth is: there's no lack of proselytizing on either side of the religious chasm.



Peace and comfort,



Michael


_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/16/2013 4:41:21 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
I wish I could say I've never met an "Evangelical Atheist" - but I've met some.

My "favorite" was the one who told my Dad, who was a American Baptist Convention minister, that he should be institutionalized until he was "cured" of his belief in "God". It was at a fund-raising event organized by an interfaith group to raise funds to help homeless people.


Not to claim that not believing in something magically stops people from being dicks to their fellow human beings just out of curiosity, was your Dad being a kook or an ass at the time?

(in reply to Fightdirecto)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/17/2013 9:05:59 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

my Dad, who was a American Baptist Convention minister

was your Dad being a kook or an ass at the time?

I thought it was your view that believing in a sky cat is being a kook and an ass.

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/17/2013 10:02:10 AM   
Phoenixpower


Posts: 8098
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

Over here a fair amount of people leave church to avoid having to pay church tax...

Now...I am carrying the desire with me to leave catholic church and to join the protestant church (as I am not against the church taxes themselves) but as in my current field the majority of employers demand being part of the catholic church (at least in southern Germany) it would right now put me at risk to do me more harm than good...

So for now I am leaving that aim to leave it and hope to do so in a few years time, but at least I will make sure that if I have kids one day, that they will not be part of the catholic church....but the protestant church instead...as there are just too many things in the catholic church which I am very much against.


I guess we didn't get rid of Nazism entirely in Germany....it is sad when a supposedly well educated society like Germany maintains religious persecution like that...but not surprising, in Southern Germany the public schools have crucifixes in them, because it is heavily Catholic..which didn't seem to do all that much good during the Nazi area, the good Catholics there and the protestants up north all seemed to do the same thing, go on a paroxysm of violence and evil I hope the world never sees again. On the other hand, from what I know from talking to friends in Germany, the young people there are like the rest of Europe, and the employers who demand you belong to the church are probably all older men in their 50's and 60's forcing their beliefs on others.


I was never much pro or against church when I was younger, though one religious education teacher was successful to push me into signing myself out of religious education once I was 14 (gosh was I lucky that my birthday was in January and as the second term of the school year had just started then I was still able to sign out of her classes within the 2 weeks time limit which was been set by the school to be able to do so...)

At that time I purely resigned my religious education classes as she got on my nerves big time with picking on me all the time with her justification that I should know this and that shit because I am from that particular village which is that heavily catholic...

Ahem...first of all...technically I was not born there...so I am not really one from that on the birth front and secondly there were 5 more class mates from there which she did not annoy all the time...

So I preferred to have these 2 hours a week no education than that horrid bitch...

in regards to

quote:

and the employers who demand you belong to the church are probably all older men in their 50's and 60's forcing their beliefs on others


that's nonsense...

in my mentioned field many of my employers are strongly funded from the church and they demand that we pray with the kids before the meals and at times attend church and therefore it is no surprise to me, that they demand their staff to be part of the church...

I mean...if I would be running a gym I would not hire a massive coach potatoe either to run fitness classes but instead someone who is passionate about sports and able to keep up with the sporting folks who attend these classes...


_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/17/2013 10:08:40 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
~fast reply~
quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo
I was speaking to a Catholic priest recently and I said this exact thing to him regarding myself, and he told me that I would be going to hell. Apparently its not enough to do good things, you have to do it with the fear of God in your heart or it doesn't count. Of course, a priest would say that.

... and I was speaking to an ordained and practicing priest (of something or the other) just a few weeks ago who felt "love they fellow man" was way more important than "believe in god" -- and supported that view with some reasonable bible references.

He said/She said.

I'm content to continue trying to "be good" as best I'm able and let the chips fall where they may. If there is a god and he gave me a defective conscience then I have yet another bone to pick with him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Your position on souls and any other supernatural stuff besides gods is irrelevant. If you believe in god(s) your a theist, if not your an atheist. If your the sort that doesn't give a shit that's apatheism.

Maybe. But you contradict your first sentence with your second and I'm too much of a scientist-type to believe your second statement. You are implying that I must have made up my mind and I have not and I don't intend to until after I'm dead or until the bush outside my front door bursts into flame and starts speaking to me. In other words, there are multiple competing hypotheses and I'm waiting for some experimental data. Are you personally unable to maintain multiple competing hypotheses in your head? Dude... just because you want to draw some sort of battle lines doesn't mean I see the need to. And honestly, if I WERE drawing battle lines they would be more sensible ones than this.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Phoenixpower)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/17/2013 4:06:46 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Your position on souls and any other supernatural stuff besides gods is irrelevant. If you believe in god(s) your a theist, if not your an atheist. If your the sort that doesn't give a shit that's apatheism.


Maybe. But you contradict your first sentence with your second...

That's incorrect, these two sentences are not contradictory:

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Your position on souls and any other supernatural stuff besides gods is irrelevant. If you believe in god(s) your a theist, if not your an atheist.


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
...and I'm too much of a scientist-type to believe your second statement.

Um....that's a bizarre thing to say, I'm going to skip it for the moment and maybe the next part will clear things up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
You are implying that I must have made up my mind and I have not and I don't intend to until after I'm dead or until the bush outside my front door bursts into flame and starts speaking to me.

I'm not implying that. I'm pointing out the dichotomy that if you consider the statement "God(s) exist" to be true then you are a theist, otherwise you are not a theist. Do you understand that dichotomy?

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
In other words, there are multiple competing hypotheses and I'm waiting for some experimental data. Are you personally unable to maintain multiple competing hypotheses in your head? Dude... just because you want to draw some sort of battle lines doesn't mean I see the need to. And honestly, if I WERE drawing battle lines they would be more sensible ones than this.

Dude...don't make assumptions about my thought process because you're pathetically bad at it.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/17/2013 5:03:29 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline
Coming to this late, and haven't read everyone's comments, so apologies if I'm repeating what has already been said.

I don't agree with The Friendly Atheist's interpretation of Kinnaman's findings. To me, assuming Kinnaman is talking about Christianity, when I read the six reasons posited, it seems to me that underlying it is in fact a mental shift away from the concept of god. The people who are leaving the church and citing the reasons posted are contradicting basic tenets of Christianity, and I'm not sure how one squares belief in god if one is rejecting major and fundamental aspects of the religion (things like there is only one god). In other words, at least some of these people who are leaving actually don't believe in god as defined by Christianity, they just don't realize it, yet. And what does it mean to say that they don't believe in god as defined by a particular religion? Then whose god, or what exactly do they believe in? When I read the six reasons, they seem to me to strike to the core of why there is no god.

As for the "evangelical atheist" approach of the so-called "Friendly" Atheist - I just flat out reject this approach.

And just addressing a comment in the thread about the existence of evangelical atheists - the fact of the matter is, most of us who are atheists are not actually very vocal about it in our real lives. No one should assume that they actually know whether someone is an atheist or not, unless they've actually admitted to being so. What this means is that many, many people who you encounter on a day-to-day basis, the nurse at your doctor's office, the sales clerk at the store, the teacher at your child's school, etc., etc., etc., may, in fact, be an atheist. But they are never going to tell you that. Also, many of us will identify with the religion in which we were raised in order to deflect questions that come our way. Unless I trust someone to a very high degree, I will not tell them I'm atheist. When someone fishes for information about my religion (and it happens more often than I would like), I will just tell them what my family practices, without explaining that I, personally, am an atheist. In other words, most of us don't even tell people we are atheist, let alone try to convince them that they should be, too. If anything I avoid discussing religion in my life and encounters with people, because believers usually react very badly when they hear I don't believe in god. You have that happen, and after a while, you just stop talking about it.

My openness on the Internet should not be misconstrued for the same level of openness in my real life. The relative anonymity of the Internet does allow for discussions that for me could not take place in real life. My atheism is strictly on a need to know basis - just like my interest in BDSM.

_____________________________

~ ftp

(in reply to Fightdirecto)
Profile   Post #: 91
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 4 [5]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 4 [5]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2024
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.168