RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a gun?

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RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a gun?

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a gun?

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[Poll]

Do you own or live in a household where there is a gun?

Yes

66% (68)

NO

33% (34)

Total Votes : 102

(last vote on : 3/25/2011 1:52:03 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

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RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a ... - 7/3/2006 4:38:58 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I agree that it's a problem and don't like word "advanced" either, but there has to be SOME way to make sure you're comparing comparable countries. We don't get very far by comparing the U.S. with Ukraine or Thailand. And what's the major difference between the U.S. and Ukraine or Thailand? The per capita GDP. That's what the researchers meant when they referred to "high income" countries--countries at the top of the world per capita GDP list.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

just as the term "Advanced" is too subjective and general to really be used

Thanks Lam, and I hear what you are saying, however I do believe that if we, for example, used lets say the US as a standard of advanced civilisation, we are uner rating the atributes of other countries and cultures. What would e of more interest to be as far as firearms goes, would be the listing as I refered to earlier in all countries on an even playing field. Later distinctions and analysis can be made with reference to the political status and stability as well as their cultures and norms for those cultutes of each country. Even between GB, USA and Australia there some differences in whih each country sees the right to own firearms and the legitimate reasons for doing so....

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 261

RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a ... - 7/3/2006 6:30:58 AM

Lordandmaster

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Well, the problem is that lately apologists for bad U.S. policies have been trying to obscure the fact that we're doing so poorly among comparable countries--in areas like secondary education, infant mortality, life expectancy, and so on--by claiming that our international rankings would look a lot better if you didn't exclude basket-case nations like Zimbabwe.

And the same goes for our high homicide rate. If you compare us to the top ten, or even top twenty countries ranked by per capita GDP, our homicide rate is eye-poppingly high. Want to pretend that it's not really a problem and we can go on with business as usual? Throw in some Thailands and some Ukraines. I can't imagine how much comfort people take in the fact that we're doing better than Thailand and Ukraine. That's a bit like saying that the Kansas City Royals aren't really a lousy baseball team because they'd beat the STUFFING out of your local junior college squad.

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 262

RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a ... - 7/3/2006 6:42:40 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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Fair enough LaM, I can see this too. I'm just curious about such things on a global level and then I'd propably want to do a detailed analysis on each country.. But that is just me being a curious grizzly and a virgo to boot (We like to have things tidy in compartments which makes is eternally frustrated)..

I think you know how highly I holf the US and yet I am a realist and understand that it is not utopia. The human conginant stops it from returning to that status.... I still have hopes for a better and more equable state of the US nation but I can't figure if it will happen in this or the next millenium.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 7/3/2006 6:45:26 AM >

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Iron Bear

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 263

RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a ... - 7/3/2006 12:36:50 PM

MstrTiger

Posts: 417
Joined: 1/14/2006
From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: allyC

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrTiger I am assuming that gang bangers shot by people while they are carrying out a crime would be put into this category and not the homicide one.
If a gang banger is doing a drive by, it is a homicide, not an accident. The assailant is charged with murder, not manslaughter. It doesn't matter if he hits his target or hits someone else. If the gang banger was shot while in the act of comitting such a crime, it is not rated as an accident or "unintentional" death either. It is considered a "legal intervention." I agree that the numbers are sad and frightening. This is why (and I'll say it one more time) I believe that the government and the legal system needs to focus on enforcing the laws that are already there and bringing criminals to actual justice rather than violating the constitutional rights of law abiding citizens. Taking guns away from people who don't break the law isn't going to stop murders. I just can't figure out why anyone would think it would. Bringing criminals to justice (not coddling them) will stop criminals. Negative consequences for negative actions. It is a deterrent. Allowing violent criminals to play billiards, watch movies, chat on the internet, and play basketball all day long in prison isn't going to do it. Well wishes, Cav's ally

I quoted the child murder figures in answer to your belief that a lot of the children being shot are gang bangers who were probably shot while carrying out a criminal offence, I said that the child murder figures I was quoting were separated from deaths considered a legal intervention which means that no gang bangers who were shot in the process of carrying out a crime, or I assume shot by the police are included in them. The point I was making is that lots more children are murdered in the U.S. than in other countries where guns are more tightly controlled.

I don’t think your assumption that criminals are punished harder reduces crime, I have never heard of an historical or modern example that justifies that assumption, 300 years ago in Britain there were over 200 offences that people were executed for if they were found guilty of them and crime was still rife. They used to do horrific things like hanging drawing and quartering people for committing treason though it did not stop people from committing treason.

(in reply to allyC)

Post #: 264

RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a ... - 7/3/2006 1:28:34 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
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Of course ultimately the only way to stop crime is to address the reasons for the crimes in the first place. Theoretically this will in any case take those who commit crimes due to povity and lack of work. There will for the forseeable future be a criminal class because it is what they like to do. I have read one idology that to remove those of the criminal class remaining when all other criminals are back working and being productive citizens is to firstly castrate them (Both sexes) so they can no longer bread and thus create another generation of criminols and secondly when they are caught, rather than executing them, have a lobotomy performed on them.... It was an interesting study and one which I can't find to like with here. All I will say it is one possible solution. Society itself will have to decide if it is to be tried or not.... I probably wouldn't vote for it though without some very compelling evidence of it's effectivemness..

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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(in reply to MstrTiger)

Post #: 265

RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a ... - 7/3/2006 3:46:58 PM

allyC

Posts: 776
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrTiger

...in answer to your belief that a lot of the children being shot are gang bangers who were probably shot while carrying out a criminal offence

I don't know where I said that I believed that the child murder rates were due to police intervention of gang bangers. In fact, that isn't what I said at all.

quote:

I don’t think your assumption that criminals are punished harder reduces crime,

When a criminal commits a crime, there is the chance that he/she will be caught. If that criminal knows that getting caught would mean going to prison and living the rest of his/her life in a tiny cell, it might deter said criminal more than knowing that if (s)he committed that crime, (s)he'd get sentenced to life, but would be out in 8 years on parole and while (s)he's there, (s)he can watch tv, chat online, play pool, shoot hoops, and get his/her degree on the taxpayer's dime. I wasn't speaking of the death penalty. I was simply speaking of prison being prison and criminals being tried and treated like criminals instead of being coddled by a system that metes out hand slaps repeatedly. Enforcing the laws that exist is probably a good place to start. In the end, Master Tiger, the bottom line is this: My owning a gun doesn't push up the crime rate. I'm not a criminal. Law abiding citizens who own guns don't push up the crime rate. They're not criminals. but... hundreds of thousands of crimes, deaths, and injuries are prevented each year by law abiding citizens with guns. It is obvious that you are steadfast in your beliefs. I am also very firm in mine. I don't see us likely to change our minds any time soon. Well wishes to you,
Cav's ally

(in reply to MstrTiger)

Post #: 266

RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a ... - 7/3/2006 5:13:05 PM

ShreveportMaster

Posts: 898
Joined: 10/6/2004
From: Dallas, Tx
Status: offline

And as far as the capital punishment issue goes, I defy ANYONE to show even one example of an executed felon commiting another crime ever. This system works perfectly. Therefore, we need to simply return to doing things in the old manner, if someone is doing drive by's, and gets caught, is running around raping, robbing, etc, give them a fair trial, and then hang 'em.
(besides everything else, it's ecologically responsible...you can re-use the rope!)
Law abiding gun owners are not the problem, never have been, never will be. Criminals are the problem, and if you take them out, they won't do it again, period.
Is it tragic when a child, or for that matter a grown person is accidentally killed by a gun in the home? of course it is. But would the anti-gun crowd feel it was somehow less tragic if they had accidentally drowned in the bathtub, or burned to death by smoking in bed? ( If someone really wants to do some good here, then they should statistically be far more upset over second hand smoke, it kills more kids than accidents involving firearms ever will, but I note they are not out picketing R.J. Reynolds, or attempting to outlaw smoking...)Accidental death is tragic whatever the cause, but I don't see anyone advocating banning private ownership of bathtubs, despite the fact that more children accidentally drown in the home in any given year than are accidentaly shot.
I wish you well,
Shreve

< Message edited by ShreveportMaster -- 7/3/2006 5:16:55 PM >

_____________________________

"And to sooth the Bosk, there was found a Singing Cowboy. To soothe the Cowboy, a kajira is needed."

Riders of Gor
Book 37, Pg 298 ;-)

(in reply to allyC)

Post #: 267

RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a ... - 7/4/2006 2:12:27 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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People who steal cars should loose their right hand for the first offense and their other hand for the secind offense and for the third offence their head.... Quick, effecient, if done publically then not a bad deterent too.. Boiling tar will seal the wound as well.... I can live with this....

< Message edited by IronBear -- 7/4/2006 2:13:57 AM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to ShreveportMaster)

Post #: 268

RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a ... - 7/4/2006 3:49:42 AM

millisande

Posts: 182
Joined: 7/19/2005
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quote:

I defy ANYONE to show even one example of an executed felon commiting another crime ever. This system works perfectly.

quote:

People who steal cars should loose their right hand for the first offense and their other hand for the secind offense and for the third offence their head

(girl wonders how the steal the car the third time, with no hands, lol)

Master Shreve... Master IronBear....
*HUG*
that is all.
carry on...

With all respect, and in hopes that this is pleasing to the Free,
bina, of Wolf.

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(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 269

RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a ... - 7/8/2006 2:51:38 AM

marcpiery

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I'm sorry that I'm not a regular member of this group, but back in the 1980's, the U.S. government commissioned the Department of Justice to study the problem. They compared cities that went from no gun control to control with those that went the opposite direction. In all cases, gun control led to increased violent crime, while the lack thereof led to relative tranquillity. After interviewing multitudes of violent offenders in Federal prisons, they found that criminals do not want to engage with an armed person, as it puts their own life at risk. Those of you that are members of the NRA can retrieve the exact information. Most of this stuff was suppressed by the media and liberal office holders.
Also, for you Brits out there, my understanding is that in England, there are 4 elements to a murder: 1) Body, 2) Motive, 3) Weapon and 4) Opportunity. If any of these elements are missing, it is not called murder, but death by suspicious or unusual circumstances. Therefore, the actual murder rates in Great Briton are much higher than what the prosecution rates would indicate.
Language tends to drift over time, and at the time that the Constitution was written, well regulated also meant well supplied, and since militias were civilian, the responsibility for supplying them fell on the members them selves.
Thank you for letting me participate in this poll.
Just one question, that is not obviously answered anywhere: What exactly is Gor and Gorean. If someone can point me in the right direction, I would greatly appreciate it.

(in reply to stef)

Post #: 270

RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a ... - 7/8/2006 9:16:29 PM

ShreveportMaster

Posts: 898
Joined: 10/6/2004
From: Dallas, Tx
Status: offline

Tal Marc,
For a good start, may I recommend My 10 commandments thread in this forum, and then the Gorean Links thread for more info than possibly needed to give you a basic background on what Gor is.

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"And to sooth the Bosk, there was found a Singing Cowboy. To soothe the Cowboy, a kajira is needed."

Riders of Gor
Book 37, Pg 298 ;-)

(in reply to marcpiery)

Post #: 271

RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a ... - 7/8/2006 10:01:44 PM

Lordandmaster

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Oh, come on. If it was a real study, you should be able to find it in a publication and cite it chapter-and-verse. Even if it was "suppressed" by liberal office-holders, I'm sure it wasn't surpressed by the handgun lobby. Liberal office-holders don't have the power to censor scientific studies (though the current right-wing presidential administration is trying to do just that...).

quote:

ORIGINAL: marcpiery

They compared cities that went from no gun control to control with those that went the opposite direction. In all cases, gun control led to increased violent crime, while the lack thereof led to relative tranquillity. After interviewing multitudes of violent offenders in Federal prisons, they found that criminals do not want to engage with an armed person, as it puts their own life at risk. Those of you that are members of the NRA can retrieve the exact information. Most of this stuff was suppressed by the media and liberal office holders.

(in reply to marcpiery)

Post #: 272

RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a ... - 7/9/2006 2:11:11 PM

jezabelKH

Posts: 663
Joined: 5/21/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Oh, come on. If it was a real study, you should be able to find it in a publication and cite it chapter-and-verse. Even if it was "suppressed" by liberal office-holders, I'm sure it wasn't surpressed by the handgun lobby. Liberal office-holders don't have the power to censor scientific studies (though the current right-wing presidential administration is trying to do just that...).

quote:

ORIGINAL: marcpiery

They compared cities that went from no gun control to control with those that went the opposite direction. In all cases, gun control led to increased violent crime, while the lack thereof led to relative tranquillity. After interviewing multitudes of violent offenders in Federal prisons, they found that criminals do not want to engage with an armed person, as it puts their own life at risk. Those of you that are members of the NRA can retrieve the exact information. Most of this stuff was suppressed by the media and liberal office holders.

i would like to see the study

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 273

RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a ... - 7/9/2006 6:27:43 PM

MstrTiger

Posts: 417
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From: UK
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quote:

Also, for you Brits out there, my understanding is that in England, there are 4 elements to a murder: 1) Body, 2) Motive, 3) Weapon and 4) Opportunity. If any of these elements are missing, it is not called murder, but death by suspicious or unusual circumstances. Therefore, the actual murder rates in Great Briton are much higher than what the prosecution rates would indicate.

That is not true and all the figures discussed in this thread were based on reported crime and not conviction rates.

< Message edited by MstrTiger -- 7/9/2006 6:48:24 PM >

(in reply to marcpiery)

Post #: 274

RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a ... - 7/9/2006 9:34:44 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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Now if we were to add ther figures of those who conspited to have a murder done, I dare say we'd find a substantial number of prominant politicions there too... Mmm Toney Blair comes to mind with the on site execution of IRA members who were unarmed in either Gibralta or Malta (Have to look up my files on that case) by the SAS in the '90's under the control of SIS or more commonly known as MI6.. Guess more than a few countries have those sorts of skeletons in the closets. I know Australia, the USA and France does... It beggers the question that is a Country sanctions a hit but does it in such a way that it deliberately circumnavigates the Laws of that country is the Government or Political Person who authorised it guilty of common Murder and should they be publically examined? Or should it be kept hush hush for the safety of the Nation (ermm in reality for the safety of that politician and his or her pension and good name)?

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to MstrTiger)

Post #: 275

RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a ... - 7/10/2006 1:15:27 AM

unownedredhead

Posts: 498
Joined: 2/5/2006
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I own a gun. I love my gun. I have a pump action rifle. yes rifle not shot gun. I like the sound it makes when it rounds another one into the chamber from the clip. . I have the best scope I could find. don't give a damb what the rest of the world thinks. you can have my gun "when you pry it from my cold dead fingers". and I am a wimpy assed female canadian. just imagine what a big redneck sexy american male would feel?

bite me

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Post #: 276

RE: Do you own or live in a household where there is a ... - 7/14/2006 3:26:32 PM

jezabelKH

Posts: 663
Joined: 5/21/2006
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as an american who owns a gun, i feel the same way! NRA membership anyone?

(in reply to unownedredhead)

Post #: 277

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