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ORIGINAL: curious23

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ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

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ORIGINAL: curious23

I'm not a catholic so I honestly don't know exactly what it takes to get into heaven according to their standards. I thought, being a denomination of christainity, all you needed was to believe in God and that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I thought this was the bare necessity in order to reach paradise. If it is, then what's it matter (especially to atheists) if he accepts our good deeds if he still sends us to hell for not believing? And if he doesn't send atheists to hell if they don't believe then, as I originally pointed out, what is even the point of faith? The pope is either pointing out something that is irrelevant (since hell is in the cards anyway) or he's undermining faith.

It's my personal interpretation that by the "we will meet one another there" he tried to imply he believes that the ticket to heaven is based on deeds, not faith. As a Jesuit it would make sense if that where the case.

And stating that faith isn't necessary to God doesn't undermine the meaning of having it anyways.

As a thought experiment, consider God as being an actual father of children. If such a father has 4 sons, and one of them respects and honors him while doing good, while the second does good without doing it to honor and respect the father, and the third respects and honors his father while doing bad, the fourth rejects his father while doing bad. Which of the sons do you think the father would be pleased with, and why?

The answer to that question depends on what kind of father you think this hypothetical father is, and what his values are.
It's the answer to that question that I think the Pope is driving at, and I think his statement spoke heavily about the type of father he believes God to be, and what kind of values as a father he ascribes to God.

Woooaaah you'er asking me to play devil's advocate here by comparing a being that makes absolutely no sense to a father. If I do, then let me present you with my own. This father has condoned rape, the selling of women, the death and murder against those who 'werent' chosen, and the eternal punishment of the Children of parents who at an apple he made and put in front of them. The commands he delivered personally to have fathers slay sons or to have kings destroy entire peoples are noble in the bible but if a person today claims they killed their child because God told them to or if a president declared war on a neighboring nation because Americans are God's chosen people because God told him in a dream, you'd label these folks as mad (I hope). So think twice before asking someone to see God as some sort of authority figure. The bible has him condoning some pretty scary things.

If I were to answer your question practically, I'd say the first one who honors and does good by him. Of course, Job (Jobe) was such an individual in the bible and God took everything he had from job and tortured him terribly without killing him just to prove a point to satan that Job would still love him. My question to you is, if a father did the same thing to one of his four sons who actually was dutiful and good just to prove a point to his neighbor that that son will still love him and do good despite being abused and tortured in the worst ways, what kind of father would you consider that man to be? What kind of father do you think God is?

But like I said, I'm playing devil's advocate here.

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ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

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ORIGINAL: curious23

But like I said, I'm playing devil's advocate here.

Like I said, I feel that the Pope is moving towards the God of Christ, instead of the one from the old testament.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, like I've said, I have some serious issues with certain things as they're presented in the Bible.

However, what I'm seeing today is a Pope who is trying to move forwards in a positive, and gracious way.

I tend to not try to not be vengeful for the sake of being vengeful. If somebody does me wrong, and they afterwards attempt to move forwards by bettering themselves through what they learned from their mistakes, I don't find it useful to keep pounding on them by continuously brining up "but you where wrong yesterday".

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ORIGINAL: curious23

The God of Christ detested homosexuality and did not support the equality of women (I'll quote versus if you ask).

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ORIGINAL: curious23

If the bible is inaccurate about who God is and what he wants from his children in any way, then why do I believe in this book in the first place? And to that I respond "Exactly".

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ORIGINAL: curious23

The pope's changing the rules so that he can put a funny hat on what is obviously a very dangerous bear. I'm not like you Ullrs. I'm not going to go "Awwww it's so cute and non threatening now. What a pleasant change to what it was before." I'm going to see it for what it is. A giant fucking bear lol.

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ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

As an additional thought:

The things that have been written by man about what God wants, and the things that have been done by man in God's name, all come down to this:

what kind of father you think this hypothetical father is, and what his values are.

What I see the Pope doing is taking a stance on stating that it is his personal believe that God's values are very different from the values the Catholic church, and other Christian institutions and individuals have held God's values to be.

That's a bold move. Because it rejects certain parts of the Bible itself. But I think a necessary one, if one wants to move forward in a positive way from the history the Christian faith has had before.

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ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

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ORIGINAL: curious23

The God of Christ detested homosexuality and did not support the equality of women (I'll quote versus if you ask).

You don't have to, I know the verses your talking about. Like I said, I don't disagree with you.

I'm just not willing to get into the details around it on this thread.

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ORIGINAL: curious23

If the bible is inaccurate about who God is and what he wants from his children in any way, then why do I believe in this book in the first place? And to that I respond "Exactly".

Yup, his statement makes that question possible. For the first time in the history of the church.

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ORIGINAL: curious23

The pope's changing the rules so that he can put a funny hat on what is obviously a very dangerous bear. I'm not like you Ullrs. I'm not going to go "Awwww it's so cute and non threatening now. What a pleasant change to what it was before." I'm going to see it for what it is. A giant fucking bear lol.

Please don't be like me. I don't think the world can handle another one of me.

I'm not saying that his statement negates there being a bear.

I'm saying that if you want a bear to peaceful you coexist with humans, you don't beat it with a stick every time it displays the behavior you want it to display. That doesn't mean you forget it's a bear, or stop being suspicious when it's leaving park picnickers alone. It just means that I don't believe that sticks are the way to teach something to not be aggressive.

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ORIGINAL: curious23

What traits could one possibly contribute to a being who's existence is undetectable in any way other than spiritual?

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ORIGINAL: curious23

No, if a bear has ever attacked humans, you shoot the freaking bear, cut off it's head, and leave it for all the other bears to see. It had it's chance to play nice.

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Th popes not basing his on the bible for sure.

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ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

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ORIGINAL: curious23

What traits could one possibly contribute to a being who's existence is undetectable in any way other than spiritual?

And yet, that's what faith does, and has done, through the entirety of human history.

In fact, just about every single individual believer I've ever come across has their own view on what they feel their deity's values are, that in large parts seem to be more reflections of what they believe their own values to be, rather than reflections on what their tradition believes their deity's values to be.

Everybody who I know, who believes in a personafiable deity, creates God in their own image.

Considering that that is what's going to happen, I welcome the image of that deity being more like the father I would like to see projected than anything we've been in the last couple thousand years or more.

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ORIGINAL: curious23

I wonder if these same believers you come across would have any faith or deity's at all if they weren't told from childhood that if they didn't have faith, they'd burn forever and ever.

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ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

You go from the assumption that faith is only beneficial if it gets you something. And I don't believe that's a valid premise.

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I also am one to make fun of religion because I believe that if we were "created in God's image" then, God must have a sense of humor. If that statement weren't true, from whence does our ability to laugh at ourselves come?

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Personally I see no reason why anyone would believe in something that has no evidence unless they were threatened (hell) or promised something spectacular (SANTAAAA!!!)

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ORIGINAL: curious23

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I also am one to make fun of religion because I believe that if we were "created in God's image" then, God must have a sense of humor. If that statement weren't true, from whence does our ability to laugh at ourselves come?

The same place our ability to eat forbidden apples came from. (I kid)

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ORIGINAL: curious23

Personally I see no reason why anyone would believe in something that has no evidence unless they were threatened (hell) or promised something spectacular (SANTAAAA!!!) but I like yours because it's at least peaceful.

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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Personally I see no reason why anyone would believe in something that has no evidence unless they were threatened (hell) or promised something spectacular (SANTAAAA!!!)

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

A lot of folks seem to believe Jefferson's uplifting words, though I'm not sure there's much evidence to buttress them.