Collarchat.com

Join Our Community		 Collarchat.com

Home  Login  Search 

RE: Unrest in Brazil


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Unrest in Brazil Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/20/2013 6:43:02 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Is global unrest on the rise? It just seems as if there are more and more countries which are having massive protests, riots, uprisings. Much of it seems economic, the eternal battle between the haves and the have nots.
http://world.time.com/2013/06/18/brazils-protests-social-inequality-and-world-cup-spending-fuel-mass-unrest/
quote:

Protesters’ grievances are united around a common theme: social inequity. They decry a political culture marked by corruption, a general lack of a return on high taxes, and point to inadequate government upkeep and spending on infrastructure, education and healthcare. That stands in stark contrast to the country’s preparations for the FIFA World Cup, which takes place in Brazil next year to the tune of some $14 billion of state investment. The tournament’s lavish funding has served to illustrate the divide between the country’s haves and have-nots. To that end, protests also marred the opening game of the smaller Confederations Cup soccer tournament on Saturday, which takes place in the World Cup host country a year before the real tournament. “The government pays for the World Cup but we don’t have hospitals. We don’t have schools, education,” says Felipe Goncalves, a 33-year-old human resources worker.
“It’s absolutely not just about a rise in bus fares, that was just the last straw,” says Veera, the student, clutching her flowers. Commentators and protesters alike see the current unrest as a symptom of the country’s dramatic rise on the world stage. During the recent presidency of Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, known as Lula, the country saw huge annual growth, with 2010 —Lula’s last year in power — delivering a 7.5 percent rise in GDP. Wages continue to rise and some 35 million people have been lifted out of poverty. Consumer credit was a major factor in that success and created a middle class whose demands are rising rapidly.
Read more: http://world.time.com/2013/06/18/brazils-protests-social-inequality-and-world-cup-spending-fuel-mass-unrest/#ixzz2WfhZUrMe

I guess the question is, are the wealthy and powerful of this world reasonable enough to be willing to give up some of their wealth for the sake of global peace and stability. Or will they be holding on for dear life to every penny, leaving countless billions impoverished and hungry, setting the stage for escalated unrest and possible global conflict? Social inequity, cuts in social services, raising bus fares on the poor to pay for more luxury for the rich.
It seems to me that those at the top, those who hold all the cards and could easily end this growing unrest with a simple stroke of a pen, refuse to do what's right. The reports indicate that these are mostly peaceful protests in Brazil, so it seems like they're asking nicely. How the government responds to nice requests will determine whether subsequent requests will be as nice.
Even here in the United States, I wonder if we're heading in the same direction.
I guess I just don't understand the mentalities of the wealthy and powerful in this world. What goes on in their heads? What are they thinking? When all they have to do is implement a few reforms, comply with the demands of the people, and stop being so greedy, all they do is send out the police, military, and just to try crush people. All they have to do is raise wages, lower prices, increase social services and education, and create a better life for their people, yet they refuse. It seems all so simple, yet they'd rather start a war than do what's right.


Is there ever enough? 2012 population estimate for Brazil: 194M (193.9-blah-blah-blah milion, so, round up) 35M lifted out of poverty "recently" That's roughly 18% of their entire population lifted out of poverty. The poverty wiki listed Brazil as having <11% of it's population earning <$2/day.

Nah, it's never enough, and it never will be.

I wonder how many Brazilians watch the World Cup.



"Enough" could be a relative term here. It's not purely a question of materialism, but also a matter of human dignity. If people do an honest day's work and contribute to the economic growth of their society, they have every right be given fair and just compensation and respect and consideration as human beings.

I once read that the United States is both the best and the worst place in the world to be poor. Materially, the poor in the U.S. might be better off than the poor in other countries, but living in a country where people with vast amounts of wealth go around flaunting and bragging about it, it adds insult to injury.

I'm sure that a sizable portion of Brazilians will be watching the World Cup. Personally, I've grown more and more disenchanted with professional sports in general. I think the last straw for me was when they had to cancel the World Series because of a strike by baseball players. I really loved baseball when I was younger, but as I started to consider just how many billions of dollars are spent every year, it just seemed like a lot of bullshit. I don't even care much about the Super Bowl anymore.

So, I can see why they might be angry about the whole thing, especially if public money is being diverted to building big new stadiums while they're cutting services everywhere else.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/20/2013 6:59:44 AM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
what do they give a shit about anyone else?


Well, you're right, they probably don't give a shit, but it would be in their best interests to start. Their vast holdings and wealth can be reduced to zero overnight if they're on the wrong side of a revolution. But if they implement some key reforms before it gets to that point, then they might be able to hold on to some of their wealth. Either they give up some of it now, or all of it later.

hmmm.. I think it depends on who controls the military & weapons..


The military and weapons are meaningless. You cannot collect the taxes you need to fund the military when a revolution occurs in an area, and when it spreads to much of your country, the ruling class has to play with what they have.

It is the reason Canada and the United States spend as much time and effort as they do spying on their citizens, for once the serious revolt starts, they have to work with what they have.

And both Canada and the United States have large rural areas that contain much of the resources needed to keep your countries running. Neither can afford to "police" such large remote areas as make up much of Anglo North America, at least over even a five year term. Picture Ontario trying to subjugate western Canada (Manitoba west and northward) in the face of a popular revolt. They could not be starved into submission, nor does Ontario have even the manpower or money to do such a thing without significant outside military and financial help.

I would worry more about Canada than the United States in this aspect, you have plenty off separatists, both in Quebec and in Western Canada, and the Indians of Canada are growing increasingly hostile to the blatant treaty violations, your Royals can go "visit" the "Indians all they want but are regarded as meaningless figureheads. The great Tory and idiot Harper is putting things into motion he and the Canadian ruling class he serves will regret.

Idle No More-Link to 8 bills that violate treaties and are meant to destroy & assimilate 1st Nations

Brasil wants evolution, and the government there has been doing what they can to move things forward.

Can anyone fairly say the same about Anglo-America?

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/20/2013 8:06:13 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Even here in the United States, I wonder if we're heading in the same direction.

I guess I just don't understand the mentalities of the wealthy and powerful in this world. What goes on in their heads? What are they thinking? When all they have to do is implement a few reforms, comply with the demands of the people, and stop being so greedy, all they do is send out the police, military, and just to try crush people. All they have to do is raise wages, lower prices, increase social services and education, and create a better life for their people, yet they refuse. It seems all so simple, yet they'd rather start a war than do what's right.

I guess I just dont understand the mentalities of the other 99% that buy into the lies and lip service of the 1%/wealthy.. take Buffet (Obama's good buddy) for instance.. he gives a lil lip service saying the rich should pay more, he brags about how little tax he pays, even tho most wealthy dont pay as little as him.. If he really thinks he pays too little he can right a big fat check to the IRS, they do take donations, he doesnt tho cuz its just lip service and good PR to just say not do.. He tells the financial media what great banks his beloved BofA & wells fargo are and what a great stock buy they are.. yet they are the worst for ripping people off, foreclosing on homes illegally (one poor lady has been forclosed on by wells fargo twice even tho she paid of the mortgage years ago).. and they pull shite like forging documents, robosigning, etc.. Yet so many 99%ers think Buffet is some sorta hero cuz they believe he weally, weally cares.. maybe if the 99% woke up then the wealthy wouldnt get away with all this shite.. and yeah, I have said it before, the US needs a true bloody revolution.. I doubt that will happen tho, even with so many pointing to that happening in the past, you just dont have that in you as a people anymore.. everyone is too complacent now & not willing to risk what little they do have.. jmo..


I don't think we're at the breaking point just yet. We could still turn it around, although a lot of that would depend on the intentions of those at the top. The better solution might be a revolution from above, which would be less chaotic and less bloody than a revolution from below. But that's really up to the famous "One Percent" who hold all the cards right now.

Given the level of complacency and inertia within the United States, I agree that the masses wouldn't be able to rise up on their own very easily. I don't think that we really have the national consciousness or the mindset for revolution in this country, even despite the fact that the country was founded on revolution. The Civil War was not a revolution, and despite a history of excessive Postbellum violence and labor uprisings, it was never enough to push the country over the edge into full-blown revolution. We had a brief flirtation with the idea back in the 1960s, but that never really went anywhere. Economically, things were on the rise, unions were stronger, wages were increasing, living standards were getting better, our industries were booming, along with other social and civil rights reforms which gave hope that things were getting better and the government was responding to the needs of the people.

Since that time, Americans have done a lot of partying. All that sex, drugs, and rock and roll take their toll, and a lot of people are just plain burned out. But the next few generations might be hungrier and more aggressive than the Baby Boomers. We could also be more vulnerable to external influences, as there is more easily accessible global communications than there used to be. We're not as insular as we used to be, so a lot of present sacred cows might not be so sacred in the years to come.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
what do they give a shit about anyone else?


Well, you're right, they probably don't give a shit, but it would be in their best interests to start. Their vast holdings and wealth can be reduced to zero overnight if they're on the wrong side of a revolution. But if they implement some key reforms before it gets to that point, then they might be able to hold on to some of their wealth. Either they give up some of it now, or all of it later.

hmmm.. I think it depends on who controls the military & weapons..


Yes, I suppose that's why they'll devote some of their wealth to security, military, and weapons. But even that's not a sure thing. In some countries, the military has been known to take power and end up calling all the shots, where no one controls the military except the military. I don't think that would likely happen in the United States, although some might believe that the military-industrial complex is already running things, but I don't know how much of that is true. In theory, the people control the government, and the government controls the military. Ultimately, it's the people who hold the key to power, if only they would use it. But if people can't even organize a revolution at the ballot box without getting screwed, then it's doubtful that any other kind of revolution would work out very well for the people as a whole. We still end up getting screwed either way.

But in Brazil and other countries around the world, it might be different. Back during the Cold War, we were driven towards propping up right-wing militarist regimes all over the world in the name of fighting communism, but I wonder if we really have the wherewithal and national endurance to continue sustaining such a policy. The complacency works both ways. Even if people aren't inclined towards rocking the boat within the United States, I don't think there's going to be as much national enthusiasm for the kind of policy as there once was during the Cold War. And with our credit rating going down and our financial picture looking bleak, we might be forced to cut our losses and the chips around the world fall where they may.

I'm wondering if we're currently seeing the dominoes fall. Could this all just spread around the world, including nations which currently seem "stable"?


(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/20/2013 10:51:04 AM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline 		I doubt you will see another coup in Brasil in any foreseeable future.

A country reaches a certain place in it's development where the military dare not try it, and Brasil has reached that point, it would be as hard as it would for the United States military, or the United Kingdom's army doing such a thing.

Much of Brasil is leftist of some significant degree and the two main parties are the PT (Workers Party) which is only slightly right of the various communist parties (there are three or four) , and which musters ~45% of the votes; and the PSDB (Social Democracy Party of Brasil) which is center left and musters ~30% of the vote. The third place seems to be the PV (Green Party) at ~20%. All three denounce the former junta and military rule.

Thus a right-wing coup would be very hard to sustain. And the left is at the reins now, they have no need to install themselves in power.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/20/2013 5:18:23 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		think what you want, it does not make it so..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to YN)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/20/2013 5:41:22 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		I think as far as the US "revolution" goes, imo the OWS protests was it and there wont be anything further.. look at all the scandals and where is OWS? they were being spied on and labeled "domestic terrorists" by the FBI, you would think they would be saying something, its like they have disappeared.. No, I dont see any revolution happening in the US, it will just get worse with the 1% getting richer and the rest accepting this is the way it is.. I see how people are here, if you are not well off, then you are beaten down and just trying to survive..

I dont think the US can afford to continue its policies regarding cold wars etc.. the country is in so much debt now.. its gonna be interesting seeing how things go here in the next 20 years.. Other countries, not just Brazil, but France, countries in the EU.. there is unrest in many of them, but for a variety of reasons.. I wonder how much are the reprecussions and result of the US financial fiasco & recession.. talk about dominios falling.. I think much of the world is still suffering from that, as are certain areas of the US (despite various news reports)..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/21/2013 3:32:17 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

hmmm.. I think it depends on who controls the military & weapons..


That's the main motive behind the use of drones, ever with more autonomous features, ever solving new problems, until they can solve the problem called humanity entirely. All that stuff about not putting lives on the line is just the palatable wrapping. There's never been any hesitation to put lives on the line when the bottom line is affected, and the bottom line says soldiers cost less than machines by far at this point.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/21/2013 3:33:36 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I wonder how much are the reprecussions and result of the US financial fiasco & recession.. talk about dominios falling..


Most of it. That was the main point of 9/11, to destabilize the world economy by causing major damage to the US economy.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/21/2013 4:38:52 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
Thus a right-wing coup would be very hard to sustain. And the left is at the reins now, they have no need to install themselves in power.


Given the current situation, with large gaps between rich and poor, widespread corruption, sub-standard public services, it doesn't seem to really matter if the left or the right is holding the reins right now.

It appears that now they're reversing their decision to raise bus and subway fares.

quote:

Leaders in Brazil's two biggest cities said Wednesday that they have reversed an increase in bus and subway fares that ignited protests across the nation.

However, many doubted the move would help abate the demonstrations that have moved well beyond the outrage over the fare hikes into communal cries against poor public services in Latin America's biggest nation.

"This will represent a big sacrifice and we will have to reduce investments in other areas," Sao Paulo Mayor Fernando Haddad said. He didn't give details on where other cuts would occur.

Rio de Janeiro Mayor Eduardo Paes also confirmed that the fare increase would be rescinded in that city.


It almost seems as if they didn't realize that raising bus fares would cause such outrage.

(in reply to YN)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/21/2013 5:03:36 AM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline 		The bus fares were the straw that broke the donkeys back.

These demonstrations are across all the regions of Brasil, not just in one state, so local transit fares obviously are not the sole motivator of a million demonstrators.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/21/2013 5:15:26 AM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Given the current situation, with large gaps between rich and poor, widespread corruption, sub-standard public services, it doesn't seem to really matter if the left or the right is holding the reins right now.



The current government have done significant work raising the incomes of the poor and the working class - Brazilian Middle Class Reaches 95 Million, Representing Over Half of Population

quote:

Brazil’s Secretariat of Strategic Affairs of the Presidency (SAE) released the Classe Média em Números (Middle Class in Numbers) study today indicating that 31 million people entered the Brazilian middle class over the decade from 1999 to 2009, bringing the total number of citizens in the middle class to 95 million – or 52 percent of the total population. Technically defined as citizens with a combined family income between R$1,000 and R$4,000, this growing segment of the Brazilian population is primarily comprised of young people with formal employment and disposable income, according to the detailed analysis of data from the National Household Sample Survey (Pesquisa Nacional por Amostra de Domicílios - PNAD) presented in the study.


Brasil is a large country, and while there are areas not far from the old days, that is not the Brasil of today.

It is the corruption, the inflation, the poor showings of the educational systems, etc. that is the source of discontent.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/21/2013 5:37:28 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I think as far as the US "revolution" goes, imo the OWS protests was it and there wont be anything further.. look at all the scandals and where is OWS? they were being spied on and labeled "domestic terrorists" by the FBI, you would think they would be saying something, its like they have disappeared..


My impression was that OWS was more of a put on than anything else. I don't think the underlying sentiment has disappeared, though. As far as being spied upon, I think many Americans have grown used to that sort of thing ever since World War II. I don't think that's going to be an issue that pushes us towards the breaking point. But things like raising bus fares, increasing fees while decreasing services - that can really get people riled up.

I recall those who occupied the state capitol in Wisconsin. They were mainly union employees in the public sector who generally have better salaries, benefits, and pensions than their private sector counterparts. Very few working class people (who don't have such generous pensions and benefit packages) are going to feel much solidarity with that bunch. Labor unions have created an upper caste among workers, which creates divisions within the masses. On the other side of that coin are those who don't work at all and receive government benefits. This also creates resentment among those non-union, non-public workers who work hard to put food on the table while seeing non-working people buy potato chips and soda with their food stamps card.

I don't know if there's any active effort to keep people divided like this, but this is one of the major sticking points, in my opinion. The "Me First" mentality is very widespread, so with each faction pushing their own pet causes and self-interested agenda, it creates divisions among the masses which make any kind of unity or solidarity necessary for revolution to be almost impossible. Even the OWS wasn't really a singular cause. There was a cacophony of different causes and different agendas (which was kind of the same problem during the 1960s).

quote:


No, I dont see any revolution happening in the US, it will just get worse with the 1% getting richer and the rest accepting this is the way it is.. I see how people are here, if you are not well off, then you are beaten down and just trying to survive..


I don't think people will accept the way it is if there's continued decline like this. Especially here in the United States, people have become accustomed to living relatively well. Unless the 1% can keep the gravy train rolling and keep the people happy in the U.S. indefinitely, then things can change quite rapidly under the right circumstances.

So, a lot of it ultimately depends on how long the status quo can be maintained at current levels. Even those who are currently well off have grown accustomed to a certain standard of living, and if that diminishes for a lot of people, then there could be some fallout.

Things aren't really bad enough just yet, and that's probably where most Americans are at this point. People are definitely worried, but not to the point of desperation just yet. But in other countries, the desperation may be more prevalent, and if it goes on unchecked, then it'll only be a matter of time before we see it here.

quote:


I dont think the US can afford to continue its policies regarding cold wars etc.. the country is in so much debt now.. its gonna be interesting seeing how things go here in the next 20 years.. Other countries, not just Brazil, but France, countries in the EU.. there is unrest in many of them, but for a variety of reasons.. I wonder how much are the reprecussions and result of the US financial fiasco & recession.. talk about dominios falling.. I think much of the world is still suffering from that, as are certain areas of the US (despite various news reports)..


I predict that we'll probably see more of the same in the years to come. I think what gets to me about all this is that those at the top seem utterly clueless and out of touch. Consider some historical figures - tyrants and monarchs who were eventually overthrown - they really had no idea how badly they screwed up and how much their people hated them. For most of their lives, they had been surrounded by yes men and people who would fawn all over them and defer to their every whim. Considering how recent generations have shown an even greater propensity towards narcissism and vanity, I have no doubt that today's movers and shakers are similarly surrounded by fawning yes men who keep them shielded and insulated.



(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/21/2013 6:20:14 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I wonder how much are the reprecussions and result of the US financial fiasco & recession.. talk about dominios falling..


Most of it. That was the main point of 9/11, to destabilize the world economy by causing major damage to the US economy.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


I agree with you on that, very much.. that was OBL's goal, to cause the US & other western govts to spend overwhelming amounts of taxpayer dollars on "safety" & this "war on terrorism".. I think he accomplished that in great part & the financial fallout will continue, especially for the US that has this expensive war machine sucking up money..

As far as the drones go, the govt will get more and more of them, they will become smaller and more efficient, they will continue to replace human soldiers cuz they are able to do more damage, I think they will be used along the Mexico-US border in greater numbers.. in due course, every police dept will have drones.. and while the govt will have them buzzing around all over the place, the rest of us wont be allowed to have or use them (they are outlawed for non-govt use in certain cities already)..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/21/2013 6:37:42 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I wonder how many Brazilians watch the World Cup.

The same or greater percentage than that watch the Superbowl in the United States. Much of the world will be watching the games.
And the football hooliganism in the EU is nothing.


Dammit. I should have made sure to have used the "sarcasm" font there. lol

I wonder how much hosting is going to bring into the country. Anyone think it won't be more than $14M?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_the_FIFA_World_Cup



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/21/2013 6:41:01 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		I never really saw OWS as doing much, so I never paid that much attention to it.. those kinds of things tend to fade away as people tire and go back to living their lives and try to survive or get further ahead.. and yes, it comes down to "me first".. I think some states will benefit if they have jobs as people will migrate to those cities.. others will be hurt.. its gonna be interesting watching what CA does.. that is such a weird place, so many people living in their nice middle-class beige stucco houses.. those people are not concerned, especially if they dont feel their job or income is in jeopardy.. you can travel an hour away inland and see how poorer people live.. the whole tax situation there is strange.. the govt will fabricate new ways of taxing people there, cuz they have to..

Yes, I agree that there is not enough pain yet for real change.. I have doubts that it will be painful enough for a revolution to happen.. With this last recession, look how fast and far the economy tanked.. it happened in only a few months.. and what did the govt do? they bailed out the 1%ers & Big Biz.. even those middle class that lost their homes & declared bankruptcy, they just wait their 3 years and then go and buy another house.. so even when there is pain, people will adjust to their new reality and continue on...

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/21/2013 8:54:16 AM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline 		It is reported in our news that President Dilma Rousseff has called for an emergency meeting of her Cabinet members today, in response to the demonstrations, and that the demonstrations were more violent after the sun set.

Also reported is that social media and mass emails call for a general strike next week, this could bring in the unions and other organized groups to the barricades.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/22/2013 1:34:33 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I guess the question is, are the wealthy and powerful of this world reasonable enough to be willing to give up some of their wealth for the sake of global peace and stability.

No! Of course not. Greed is good. Social justice threatens. In Brazil the wealth gap between peasants and landowners is huge and the rules are biased against the landless. New laws were put in place to share federal lands but the monied land-squatters delay justice in every way they can.


Still, you'd think that even the greedy would be willing to pay for a bit of insurance to protect their investments. It would be cheaper in the long run.


That's common sense to you and me but to the rich it appears like 'theft'. I am unable to think of a single occasion in history when the rich voluntarily surrendered their wealth and power for the common good.

One relevant example is Occupied Palestine where the powerful Ziono-fascists, in typically hyperbolic style label any move towards peace or resolution with the Palestinians as a "suicide option" for Israelis.

Peace a "suicide option" ?????? What utter garbage!


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/22/2013 1:38:14 AM >

_____________________________



(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/24/2013 6:46:31 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I guess the question is, are the wealthy and powerful of this world reasonable enough to be willing to give up some of their wealth for the sake of global peace and stability.

No! Of course not. Greed is good. Social justice threatens. In Brazil the wealth gap between peasants and landowners is huge and the rules are biased against the landless. New laws were put in place to share federal lands but the monied land-squatters delay justice in every way they can.


Still, you'd think that even the greedy would be willing to pay for a bit of insurance to protect their investments. It would be cheaper in the long run.


That's common sense to you and me but to the rich it appears like 'theft'. I am unable to think of a single occasion in history when the rich voluntarily surrendered their wealth and power for the common good.

One relevant example is Occupied Palestine where the powerful Ziono-fascists, in typically hyperbolic style label any move towards peace or resolution with the Palestinians as a "suicide option" for Israelis.

Peace a "suicide option" ?????? What utter garbage!



As far as the rich voluntarily surrendering their wealth and power, I think it was done in the West to some degree, leading to a rise in the labor movement, civil rights movements, and is largely responsible for the growth in the middle class, as well as far-reaching improvements in living standards and social welfare programs across the board. They weren't necessarily doing it for the common good, but for their own good (although many social reformers came from upper class backgrounds). They felt it better to make some concessions rather than push things to the point of revolution, civil war, and/or dictatorship. Seeing what happened in places like Germany and Russia during the first part of the 20th century caused many Western leaders to sit up and take notice.

Now that time has passed, the World Wars are long behind us, and even the Cold War is turning into a fading memory, the ruling classes of the world have reached a plateau of arrogant complacency - even despite whatever ideological "left/right" differences might still exist.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/24/2013 7:07:33 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:


That's common sense to you and me but to the rich it appears like 'theft'. I am unable to think of a single occasion in history when the rich voluntarily surrendered their wealth and power for the common good.


The first step would be some 'enlightened self interest', as the Disraelian conversion became known here. Or 'intelligent greed', I sometimes call it. Give up some of it in order to forestall losing all of it.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Unrest in Brazil - 6/24/2013 10:07:42 AM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline 		In Brasil the old landed patrones are giving way to the new industrial ruling class, much as occurred in North America or Europe as they industrialized.

I was going to suggest considering the state of the United States ~1880-1900 to obtain an idea of the internal contradictions needing resolution.

Brasil has a growing and growing in powered middle class, is in the process of shifting from an agrarian/resources based economy to an industrial state, has a large number of marginalized rurales and Indians treated as second class citizens in the hinterlands with a progressive and socialist government at the helm attempting to deal with these and other issues.

In this dynamic environment, the government certainly will not please all classes.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Unrest in Brazil Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2024
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.141