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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/2/2013 9:45:33 PM

Esinn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'm sure he will no longer give out damaging information to the US... But... if he doesn't want the Russians to turn him over to the US he will give any and all information to the Russians. If I were the former head of the KGB I would do the same.

Butcbh

I hear this about every few days. It is interesting. Specifically what information that he has not given to others will he give to Russians? Did he give it to Hongkong? Did he give it to reporters when they met him in HongKong? Did he give it to reporters when he met them in Russian?

Most important what exactly is this information you say he has. Has any US IC analysis, general or executive discussed this? How do you know he has it?

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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/2/2013 10:01:31 PM

Esinn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

In a few months, there'll be a 'tragic accident', or else the CIA just contracts some Russian mobsters for a hit. He's done for, now. Uncle Sugar ain't afraid of wet work when it's necessary.

I do not think so. Intervention with Russian policy, illegal and unnecessary intervention, by the USG - without their permission would have immediate and disastrous results. This is not Bahrain, Oman, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Qatar, Doha, Libya, Cuba, Panama or some other irrelevant nation, broke defenseless nation. Our best and most powerful UAS would not make it across their border (Russia). Which is why the USG/CIA loves UAS to kill people in poor nations from ground controlled GCS far removed from the AO - they are defenseless from such attacks. Killing is easy, when it is "easy". The more people killed using this method the more social friction, confusion and disruption caused which is the objective. Such an objective is not possible in Russia - Espc not now.

It is interesting to speculate about this. The "What ifs" or conspiracy theories, sure. But other than GeoSpat or an occasional Humint Technician we have genuinely have left Russia alone for decades, and with good reason. They have never done anything to cause the USA/USG (most specifically USA - US Citizens) ANYimmediate or long term harm. I am no champion of Russia or the USA to be honest. Just sayin. Both can GTFO in my book.

Russia is ready

Us troop suicide, divorce, unemployment, mental illness, violence, sexual abuse and depression is at record highs and sky rocketing - while recruitment is down a bit. Approaching 20trillion in debt while currently fighting about 8 simultaneous wars (some direct some proxy). I am aware of no chatter from the DOD, any thinktank, WH, US IC or other chatter which has remotely suggested going into Russia to harm snowden is an option.

Even Snowden's father recently told the FBI to piss off and it was fairly quickly dropped. Love him or hate him. Who cares. This cat and mouse media BS is just a distraction This is a media circus, to hell with all this BS. We need to pay attention to the Snowden Catalyst, the illegal spying, corruption, deception and continued lies of the WH, DOJ, US IC and others. Absence of evidence(absence of harm to snowden) is not evidence of absence, sure - ANYTHING is possible. But while possible. It is so improbable to consider it possible it is silly- meh. There is plenty of evidence to suggest why this will not happen in Russia. Especially any time soon.

< Message edited by Esinn -- 8/2/2013 10:03:37 PM >

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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/2/2013 10:13:06 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
We need to pay attention to the Snowden Catalyst, the illegal spying, corruption, deception and continued lies of the WH, DOJ, US IC and others.

aint that the truth!

"Michele Catalano was looking for information online about pressure cookers. Her husband, in the same time frame, was Googling backpacks. Wednesday morning, six men from a joint terrorism task force showed up at their house to see if they were terrorists. Which prompts the question: How'd the government know what they were Googling?"
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/08/government-knocking-doors-because-google-searches/67864/

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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/3/2013 12:49:11 AM

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quote:

I guess strikes me about this whole thing is that the U.S. government really, really wants Snowden back badly, as exemplified by the rather strong rhetoric coming from Washington towards Moscow on this issue. He's not the first U.S. citizen to defect to another country, nor is he the first government employee to reveal classified information. These things happen, and the more our officials bark about it, the more embarrassing it gets.

I agree it's sad what the government is doing overall, but the way they're stomping they're feet and throwing an international tantrum over this makes it seem like they're losing their composure and sense of perspective. I don't where all this zeal to get this guy is coming from, but I do wonder about that. Shouldn't our politicians and diplomats be working on more important things right now? Why do they care so much about this guy that they're taking up all this time, energy - and even risking not attending the G-20 summit? It's ludicrous.

It seems to me that the US Govt is forced to do all it can to turn Snowden into the issue. As long as they can rail about his alleged 'treachery' and 'espionage', they are deflecting the focus away from the US Govt's own spying on its own citizens, and its violation of American's (and all Internet users') rights and privacy.

Despite all the noises the US is making about Snowden's asylum in Russia, I wonder if perhaps getting Snowden back is the last thing the US Govt wants - that would remove him as an issue, and turn the focus back on the Obama administration's own spying on its citizens and the rest of the Internet using world - not what Obama needs.

Snowden did us all a gigantic favour by revealing the extent of Govt surveillence. Let's hope he remains safe wherever he ends up. He only needs look at the fate of another heroic whistle blower - Bradley Manning - to understand the fate that awaits him should the US ever get it paws on him ......

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/3/2013 12:53:09 AM >

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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/3/2013 2:46:39 AM

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"Hey Obama, you're not very flexable."

Attachment (1)

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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/3/2013 7:43:31 AM

kdsub

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quote:

How do you know he has it

How do you know he doesn't?

Snowden only gave general information on the results of the NSA's programs... but he has knowledge of the nuts and bolts... the organization... the type of equipment used and in what way. The real useful information.

He has said he has knowledge of information gathered on individuals and other countries of the world...would not this info be useful to Russia? I'm sure the US believes it would be.

Butch

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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/3/2013 1:58:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"Hey Obama, you're not very flexable."

love it

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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/3/2013 2:36:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"Hey Obama, you're not very flexable."

Time to reprise -

Operation Hot Mic

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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/3/2013 3:08:25 PM

Esinn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

How do you know he has it

How do you know he doesn't?

Snowden only gave general information on the results of the NSA's programs... but he has knowledge of the nuts and bolts... the organization... the type of equipment used and in what way. The real useful information.

He has said he has knowledge of information gathered on individuals and other countries of the world...would not this info be useful to Russia? I'm sure the US believes it would be.

Butch

I am just telling you, parroting what all living EX IC whistle blowers (FBI, CIA, NSA, DIA, DHS, DOD, DOJ, SS) and others are saying. I am repeating what ACLU, EFF, EPIC, Amnesty International, CAIR, CCR and others are indicating in their legal lawsuits.

The worlds best security experts, data analysts and scientists have chimed in on this. It is possible he had "the information" you speak of. It is possible the sun will explode or Alex Jones will become president tomorrow. Given all the evidence we have, what we know about what he has, who he has spoken with, his disclosures. Actions of the US IC and presidents or ICs around the planet.

Yes, anything is possible. It always could be. But, drawing from the evidence out there. What the US ICs / WH / DOJ has admitted to. It is highly unlikely he has "that information" you speak of or 3-4 senators and 1 congressperson alluded to.

I do not know, I have no clue. I am not involved with US IC or DOD on any "cleared" capacity. I am a low life and low level recruiter. Like you this is of interest. I can cite specific conferences, names, law suits, hearings, investigations (national/international) OSINT data and expert opinion on this if you like (drop names). It just seems likely this is not an I/O Psyop, he is not a double/triple agent and his intent is not harm to the USA/US IC. His leaks (or theft) whichever. Were selective unlike manning. While vague, I do not know how serious you are into examining this..... It genuinely seems he does not. So, I'd ask again why do you think he does. Please offer specifics why you believe he does. I'd say the Senate hearing which Keith Alexander took part in on June 10th(ish) which lasted 3 + hours. The fact this was never brought up.... Is a good place to start. Firing back at me with the same question is kind of childish.

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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/3/2013 3:11:07 PM

Esinn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"Hey Obama, you're not very flexable."

Time to reprise -

Operation Hot Mic

Are you blaming just Obama and speculating Republicans would have done a better or different job relevant to this? (Domestic War/Spying?)

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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/3/2013 3:16:17 PM

Esinn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

I guess strikes me about this whole thing is that the U.S. government really, really wants Snowden back badly, as exemplified by the rather strong rhetoric coming from Washington towards Moscow on this issue. He's not the first U.S. citizen to defect to another country, nor is he the first government employee to reveal classified information. These things happen, and the more our officials bark about it, the more embarrassing it gets.

I agree it's sad what the government is doing overall, but the way they're stomping they're feet and throwing an international tantrum over this makes it seem like they're losing their composure and sense of perspective. I don't where all this zeal to get this guy is coming from, but I do wonder about that. Shouldn't our politicians and diplomats be working on more important things right now? Why do they care so much about this guy that they're taking up all this time, energy - and even risking not attending the G-20 summit? It's ludicrous.

It seems to me that the US Govt is forced to do all it can to turn Snowden into the issue. As long as they can rail about his alleged 'treachery' and 'espionage', they are deflecting the focus away from the US Govt's own spying on its own citizens, and its violation of American's (and all Internet users') rights and privacy.

Despite all the noises the US is making about Snowden's asylum in Russia, I wonder if perhaps getting Snowden back is the last thing the US Govt wants - that would remove him as an issue, and turn the focus back on the Obama administration's own spying on its citizens and the rest of the Internet using world - not what Obama needs.

Snowden did us all a gigantic favour by revealing the extent of Govt surveillence. Let's hope he remains safe wherever he ends up. He only needs look at the fate of another heroic whistle blower - Bradley Manning - to understand the fate that awaits him should the US ever get it paws on him ......

I think I agree. While I am empathetic to the man. The material is more important. In his first interview Snowden clearly said his life was what was not important, "The can capture, torture or kill me....." he said. The USG (US Government) and media is turning this into a circus - cat and mouse chase. Human nature demands we love the entertainment value of car chases, spy movies and other things. As I believe you implied it is a distraction. It seeems to be an obvious and intentional distraction too. I value what he did. I do not really care if he is a hero, traitor or criminal. The information is now available. This is one of the greatest threats against our freedom, privacy and liberty in our lifetimes according to most ex-IC whistle-blowers. Ignoring the material now is simply irresponsible. We now have it and now know what our government is doing/has been doing.

If the NSA/DIA/WH/DOJ does not stand down we must stand up. Even if we have nothing to hide we have everything to lose.

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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/3/2013 3:59:36 PM

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quote:

Zonie63 post 11: I agree it's sad what the government is doing overall, but the way they're stomping they're feet and throwing an international tantrum over this makes it seem like they're losing their composure and sense of perspective. I don't where all this zeal to get this guy is coming from, but I do wonder about that. Shouldn't our politicians and diplomats be working on more important things right now? Why do they care so much about this guy that they're taking up all this time, energy - and even risking not attending the G-20 summit? It's ludicrous.

quote:

tweakabelle post 24: It seems to me that the US Govt is forced to do all it can to turn Snowden into the issue. As long as they can rail about his alleged 'treachery' and 'espionage', they are deflecting the focus away from the US Govt's own spying on its own citizens, and its violation of American's (and all Internet users') rights and privacy.
Despite all the noises the US is making about Snowden's asylum in Russia, I wonder if perhaps getting Snowden back is the last thing the US Govt wants - that would remove him as an issue, and turn the focus back on the Obama administration's own spying on its citizens and the rest of the Internet using world - not what Obama needs.
Snowden did us all a gigantic favour by revealing the extent of Govt surveillence. Let's hope he remains safe wherever he ends up. He only needs look at the fate of another heroic whistle blower - Bradley Manning - to understand the fate that awaits him should the US ever get it paws on him

quote:

Esinn post 30: Are you blaming just Obama and speculating Republicans would have done a better or different job relevant to this? (Domestic War/Spying)

quote:

Esinn post 31: I think I agree. While I am empathetic to the man. The material is more important. In his first interview Snowden clearly said his life was what was not important, "The can capture, torture or kill me....." he said. The US Government and media is turning this into a circus - cat and mouse chase. Human nature demands we love the entertainment value of car chases, spy movies and other things. As I believe you implied it is a distraction. It seeems to be an obvious and intentional distraction too. I value what he did. I do not really care if he is a hero, traitor or criminal. The information is now available. This is one of the greatest threats against our freedom, privacy and liberty in our lifetimes according to most ex-IC whistle-blowers. Ignoring the material now is simply irresponsible. We now have it and now know what our government is doing/has been doing.

If the NSA/DIA/WH/DOJ does not stand down we must stand up. Even if we have nothing to hide we have everything to lose.

Each, very well said ! Could not agree more.

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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/3/2013 6:12:11 PM

kdsub

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quote:

I am just telling you, parroting what all living EX IC whistle blowers (FBI, CIA, NSA, DIA, DHS, DOD, DOJ, SS) and others are saying. I am repeating what ACLU, EFF, EPIC, Amnesty International, CAIR, CCR and others are indicating in their legal lawsuits.

What does the above have to do with anything involved with this case...they are all X...the ACLU come on what the hell do they know?... Amnesty International...Good lord!

You and they and I know nothing except he has inside knowledge of the workings of the NSA and if you think that is not important to Russia then you are more naïve then I supposed.

Butch

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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/3/2013 6:57:49 PM

Esinn

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Joined: 6/23/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

I am just telling you, parroting what all living EX IC whistle blowers (FBI, CIA, NSA, DIA, DHS, DOD, DOJ, SS) and others are saying. I am repeating what ACLU, EFF, EPIC, Amnesty International, CAIR, CCR and others are indicating in their legal lawsuits.

What does the above have to do with anything involved with this case...they are all X...the ACLU come on what the hell do they know?... Amnesty International...Good lord!

You and they and I know nothing except he has inside knowledge of the workings of the NSA and if you think that is not important to Russia then you are more naïve then I supposed.

Butch

I do not know what you mean? We know mountains about the NSA. Search FAS, GWU, Publicintelligence, Linkedin, Wikileaks, EPIC, Court Dockets, EFF, ACLU and all the FOIA filed over the years and the non-redacted. James B exposed the NSA to such a degree they sued him. He was the reason binney got off. The LULzSec leaks were of tremendous value as well.

Saying "Xes" know nothing about something. When there Infosec/Opsec (SOP - standard op) hasn't changed almost since conception... That is about as as strange as saying your "EX" spouse who you were married to for 30 yrs knows nothing of you 4 yrs later.

Anyhow, I have given factual examples, names, organizations, mentioned James and offered very specific sites/locations for you to search. If you are wishing to have a discussion please contribute rather than repeating the same shit over and over .

I guess I will do some of your research for you. Since you are incapable:
https://www.fas.org/irp/nsa/
Do site search on google "Site:" on publicintelligence.net keyword NSA
http://wikileaks-press.org/tag/nsa/
http://www.aclu.org/national-security/new-report-confirms-nsas-ability-access-americans-online-activity
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXwHLMckzKM (This is from 1984 just to offer an idea how much and how long we have known about the NSA)
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB178/surv18.pdf (1975)
https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying
https://epic.org/privacy/nsa/foia/
https://www.muckrock.com/agency/united-states-of-america-10/national-security-agency-17/

Don't use any of these sites as a single source. Spend the next 8 months reading. I am sorry you do not know what countless others do. It is odd how some elevate the NSA to the status of superheros. They are just another corrupt, often incompetent, abusive and vile branch of government. Do not take that the wrong way. There are many decent people there.

SO HOLY SHIT! BUTCH We are going in CIRCLES here. I've given you good reason why we should believe what you are saying is untrue. Now, I've given you links, sources for both legal and illegal leaks (don't read the illegal ones).... Judges opinions.... SO BACK TO THE QUESTION.... I explained why it was not very probable Snowden shared specific extraordinarily classified data with Russia/China. Snowden also explained this in an interview. I did admit IT anything is possible. So, I asked you to support your statement.

There is just no talk, chatter or information about it anywhere. There is no complaints from Keith Alexander, James Clapper, NSA, DIA or DOD counsel "about this sensitive data on laptops". This meme seems to have been created by P King around 6/15.

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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/3/2013 8:34:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

James B exposed the NSA to such a degree they sued him.

James B exposing NSA = lawsuit

Edward Snowden exposing NSA = spending the rest of his life as a wanted man

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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/3/2013 10:52:30 PM

Esinn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

James B exposed the NSA to such a degree they sued him.

James B exposing NSA = lawsuit

Edward Snowden exposing NSA = spending the rest of his life as a wanted man

That is an interesting thing to pick up on - kind of cool. Do you know what the document James had which lead to the lawsuit? I am sure you could look it up. James just is not very relevant to this conversation. I just threw him in at last moment as a "back pocket closer"/ quick example.

Binney, Drake or Wiebe. Would have been better examples.

Binney/Drake/Wiebe exposing NSA = lawsuit. I am curious about your choice and if you know which document it was? This will derail the thread, I guess. But, it was going nowhere.

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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/4/2013 1:35:56 AM

Posts: 18104
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"Hey Obama, you're not very flexable."

Time to reprise -

Operation Hot Mic

Are you blaming just Obama and speculating Republicans would have done a better or different job relevant to this? (Domestic War/Spying?)

Esinn, ..."a better job?"
He didn't do *ANY* job. He checked out a 5 pm and flew to Las Vegas the next morning for a fundraiser!!!

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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/4/2013 4:13:36 PM

Esinn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle

You know, given the choice between spending the rest of my life in Russia or in a US Federal Penitentiary, I'd have a very hard time deciding.

That is probably because you are not very smart? Less fear mongering from violent politicians or delusional military personnel There is not that much of a difference between US/Russian culture. Climate might be drastically/slightly different. But... I'd suggest a KollEgE kLaSS and learn about Russia.

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RE: Snowden Gains Temporary Asylum in Russia - 8/4/2013 6:04:56 PM

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A Russian immigrant once asked me "Where is the freedom ?". And don't get me wrong, he was doing quite well here, had plenty of money. Nice house, I've been there a couple of times. Nice computer shop in the basement, had a job in IT.

I think he may have gone back.

T^T

(in reply to Esinn)

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