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RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:15:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KennelDeSade2

Agreed, we might as well salvage something.
But a question first. Your experience level, or another's?
If you don't have a lot of experience, then you may not catch the subtle things that a person with more time in grade (sorry, had to) would pick up on. But one clue is that if you go to a auto mechanic and he claims ten years experience, but has only a 12x8x6 inch toolbox, you can pretty safely assume he is being less than truthful. I've found the same in general applies to a Top, in that if he has two toys or tools, which had seen little wear, then. . Well.

So you judge someone experience by the size of their toy bag? Thats rather asinine. By this logic, if one buys toys second hand, has a room full of them and keeps the dust on off them, then they're of great experience. But if they specialize in one type of play and buy new implements in reserve because of wear, or simply only shows the new implement for the sake of first impressions, then they don't have the "experience". Bullshit.

< Message edited by MrDiscipline44 -- 6/29/2006 7:17:39 AM >

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RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:15:54 AM

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albatross, there's two ways one can end up with the possibility to cut themselves loose.

1. person demands their master allows for a way to be cut loose.

2. person wants to be tied up securely, but the master decides to allow for a way for them to cut themselves loose, for a multitude of reasons (a sort of bondage orgasm denial, a test of the sub, whatever)

now, i was talking about 1 and you seem to be talking about 2.

(in reply to zenofeller)

RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:16:45 AM

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I fail to see how masturbation and even mutial masturbation is BDSM unless there is some form of dominanc (even verbal controling the other party) present. I would normally have said that if two people re masturbating each other it is just two people enjoying a sexual encounter.. I'm probably quite wrong but that is not unusuall. Personally I like free flowing sex even when involved in group sex.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 6/29/2006 7:17:44 AM >

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RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:17:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44
So you judge someone experience by the size of their toy bag? Thats rather assinne. By this logic, if one buys toys second hand, has a room full of them and keeps the dust on off them, then they're of great experence. But if they specialize in one type of play and buy new impliments in reserve because of wear, or simply only shows the new impliment for the sake of first impresiions, then they don't have the "experence". Bullshit.

he does have a point.

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)

RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:18:12 AM

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    Ok Zeno. Here goes. You said, "We distinguish between sex and masturbation roughly on the lines that while sex is interaction with another, masturbation is the pretense of interaction with another, using some sort of imagery...Consequently, I choose to distinguish between real BDSM and pseudo BDSM."

    But as far as I know Zeno, Sex and Masterbation are both considered sex. So based on what I know of the world, put into your terms, it must then be reasoned that "real" BDSM and "pseudo" BDSM are both then BDSM.

    Or are you saying that BDSM is fake when practiced by only ones self. lol In order to be a real practitioner of BDSM we must partake in the presense of others? If god alone is watching, we must be wannabes.

(in reply to zenofeller)

RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:18:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

As for real BDSM? Bondage/Discipline/Sadism/Masochism - yup and slip in the old D/s if you want. That's all it is. If the masturbation involves binding your own ankles together before you jack yourself off - to me, thats BDSM. Masturbation on its own is masturbation. If the sex includes getting off on the pain inflicted on the simple swipes of a cane - to me, thats BDSM. Sex on its own is just sex.

Wearing a choker doesn't make it BDSM, unless your wearing it to feel and experience the choke. Wearing a collar doesn't make it BDSM - just like wearing a ring doesn't make it marriage.

BDSM isn't a lifestyle or a community or anything else. Its an acronym. And if any of those words aren't in that acronym, it isnt BDSM.
Plain and simple.

Peace and Rapture

I agree with this, but I would like to point something out.
BDSM is not solely sexual, about sexuality, or about sex. It fulfills a need, yes. The needs are often sexual in nature or expression, yes. But even more than it is about anything sexual, it is about trust and communication. As many a sub has said, a good Dom makes them feel protected and loved. It is the act of giving themselves freely that pleases. The sex is just a bonus. Just because a person may need to have certain circumstances satisfied so they can get off, doesn’t mean that that’s all BDSM does. BDSM is perfectly capable of existing without sex just as sex can exist without BDSM.
As for looking at BDSM as something political, that's purposeless. Since when has this been about enacting social change? What mainstream aggression? Where? I don't see that we are trying to force BDSM on anybody who didn't want to be involved with it and the only people I have known to have a problem with it are people who are close-minded in general. For them the only way the works is their way. But who cares? To each their own. The only people who have control over you are the people you allow to have control.

Oh and for those who have never before read Zeno’s posts, he is absolutely famous for making up definitions as he goes along. Thanks for reminding me, fullofgrace

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RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:19:35 AM

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Well in some cases it could be true (judging someone by their toybox). I was just amazed I never thought of it. But it could be mis-construed I guess, now that I think about it. - Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 6/29/2006 7:21:42 AM >

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(in reply to zenofeller)

RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:19:36 AM

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I don't know IB, say I beat mine like it owes me money, would that modify your stance? It would have components of psuedo-bdsm at the very least....

Good at ya, me ol' cobber!!

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RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:20:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sophia37
But as far as I know Zeno, Sex and Masterbation are both considered sex. So based on what I know of the world, put into your terms, it must then be reasoned that "real" BDSM and "pseudo" BDSM are both then BDSM.

i would say that is correct.

(in reply to sophia37)

RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:21:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller

basically, if you just jack off, you just jack off. but if you have to ask permission first, persay, you are not just playing with yourself, and that interaction is what makes it bdsm.

Then I have practiced BDSM when I was vanilla more often than not as I always asked my partners what they wanted and when they wanted it. I think that most sex has control involved if this is the case. Your example is jacking off, but if I ask my partner to do something and they do it then I am controling them.. correct? If I tell my partner to lick to the left or the right I am controlling them correct?

BTW, I quoted your words, my comment was not out in left field as to how you define BDSM, I do not respect it when people are nasty when you try to debate them by making insinuations that the person they are debating is somehow slow.

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(in reply to zenofeller)

RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:23:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I don't know IB, say I beat mine like it owes me money, would that modify your stance? It would have components of psuedo-bdsm at the very least....

Good at ya, me ol' cobber!!

Not sure mate but Ihave encountered groups of guys at mining camps when pissed they's jerk offover a driedcracker and the last one to spurt gets to eat the now soggy cracker.. Not my scene but that might just be BDSM too.....

<<Heaves Ron another iced Fosters>>

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http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:24:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller
albatross, there's two ways one can end up with the possibility to cut themselves loose.

1. person demands their master allows for a way to be cut loose.

2. person wants to be tied up securely, but the master decides to allow for a way for them to cut themselves loose, for a multitude of reasons (a sort of bondage orgasm denial, a test of the sub, whatever)

now, i was talking about 1 and you seem to be talking about 2.

A person can demand until they are blue in the face. Until the other person agrees, then nothing's really going on.

What's the difference then between someone who chooses not to play with doms who do needle play and telling a dom "You're not doing needle play on me"?

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RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:27:51 AM

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on the entire political side, you may not know anyone who went to jail for no good reason other than involvement in "distastefull practices", but that doesn't mean it never happened.

the discussion about bdsm being "not just sex", i think it's an equivocation. bdsm lifestyle is not necessarily about sex, just like marriage isn't necessarily about sex. but bdsm lifestyle is a notion derived from the notion of bdsm. how ? by adding "not necessarily about sex". a bit of circular logic in action.

(in reply to ArtimisBlack)

RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:29:10 AM

CreativeDominant

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~smiling~...well, I've read all the way through this thread (as discussed in mistoferin's thread).

The OP can indeed be seen as an intellectual exercise. BDSM...what is real and what is fake? The very real argument could be made that anyone that practices it in such a way as the Marquis did is practicing "real" BDSM. No way for the "victim" to escape, no way to avoid the beating/flogging/waxing/etc., no way out of whatever the "inflictor" decides to inflict except by the "inflictor's" decision alone. There was no such thing as "consent needed and given/rescinded" for him to ply his craft (usually). Of course, try that nowadays and see...in most cases...how far that gets you. And of course, there is the fact that he himself did not refer to it as "BDSM". That was left to another who made a study of what the Marquis had done and gave it a title: Sadism. The title for the victims who actually enjoyed it came about later from someone else who did another study of various writings: Masochism.

But see? Bondage and discipline were left out of the Marquis' equation. Since he is the originator of Sadism, does that make them any less real? Should we just consider them to be included in his mind's eye of offenses? I suppose, for the sake of discussion, we can just bind everything together (so to speak).

Personally, I think trying to practice BDSM in the fashion of the Marquis today is going to get you one thing: sooner or later, you will be arrested or you will be assaulted or killed (by a victim who recovers more than you'd hoped they would). So that leaves us to practice BDSM in a manner that...please give me leeway on this, those of you who hate this phrase, and see my bigger point here...in a manner that is, at least somewhat, safe and sane and consensual. That means doing bondage on someone but yeah, leaving them an escape route. That means doing knife play in a manner that works for you and your partner: some like to cut/be cut and some just like the implication that leads to fear and some like the fear that comes from not really knowing for sure "will he or won't he?" That means stopping when someone uses their safeword for stopping. And it means understanding that when someone says "No" when you run up against their hard limit, means "No". It can be pushed and twisted a bit but it is a line that many, if not most, will not cross. That is what has come to be defined...for many and I dare say most...as BDSM, at least at a basic level.

Psuedo BDSM? Difficult to say, but I could posit that it is when thinking of it only...to the exclusion of real performance...that there is an exercise in psuedo BDSM going on. That there has to be a definite physical interaction that takes place. This is MOO.

And for those who read the above and say "But what about D/s?" I deliberately left that out as the OP was asking about BDSM and I chose to specify it into Bondage/Discipline/Sadism/Masochism as his post seemed to be concerning the physical elements of these "play" areas only and not the mental/emotional aspects of D/s.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:30:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Then I have practiced BDSM when I was vanilla more often than not as I always asked my partners what they wanted and when they wanted it. I think that most sex has control involved if this is the case. Your example is jacking off, but if I ask my partner to do something and they do it then I am controling them.. correct? If I tell my partner to lick to the left or the right I am controlling them correct?

i would say that is correct.

quote:

BTW, I quoted your words, my comment was not out in left field as to how you define BDSM, I do not respect it when people are nasty when you try to debate them by making insinuations that the person they are debating is somehow slow.

i was actually, honestly and respectfully trying to understand what you said. i meant no irony or sarcasm. i was just staring at the screen and going huh ? i'm still interested to hear it explained if you have the time.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:31:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
What's the difference then between someone who chooses not to play with doms who do needle play and telling a dom "You're not doing needle play on me"?

i would say it's the same difference as between not buying a car that doesn't work and telling your car "you're not dieing on me".

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:32:01 AM

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Amen Creative Dominant, amen.

- Susan

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That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:32:16 AM

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Susan, the best way to judge a person's experience is to first read up, ask questions, and get as much knowledge of your own as you can. After that, decide how much experience you want that person to have. A persons experience can either be relative to your own or relative the group in general (whichever group that happens to be). So, for example, you may find somebody with more experience then you have, but compared to the group in general they are not quite so experienced. A simple conversation should be able to give you some hints as to how experienced a person is, once you decide what you're looking for. If it's obvious that they don't know what they are talking about then it’s a good sign they don't have much experience. Another indicator of experience is how long and how often they have been involved in BDSM. If they have been into it for years but have never met anyone in to *real* world it's another sign they might not have the experience you'd like. Other then that, go with your gut, and just to be on the safe side, don't do anything too extreme until you try the softer stuff first with them first and have known them a while. Hope this helps.

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RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:33:25 AM

bignipples2share

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Fast ReplyIf someone abducts me, takes me to the woods, ties me up and leaves me there, even though I got out of the binds, I've been tied up and left in the woods.If a partner takes me out to the woods, ties me up and leaves me, even though I got out of the binds, I'm miles from anything, I've been tied up and left in the woods.If a partner takes me out to the woods, which are just behind the house, ties me up and leaves me, even though I got out of the binds, I've been tied up, left in the woods and thanks, it's been great fun, if that was my thing. If someone ties you up in ropes, you are bound, this is bondage.If a master paints ropes on you and tells you that you are restricted from moving, are you not mentally bound?If you are only tied up every weekend and have missionary sex during the weekdays, does that negate the fact that you're into bondage? If you're masterbating, you're masterbating. If you masterbate with a partner, is this not some part of a shared sexual experience? As far as not everyone doing the same thing in the BDSM community, therefore no unity, not everyone in other communities are doing the same things either. Not all vanillas are doing just strictly missionary position, yet are still considered vanilla by the vast majority. And if they are doing just missionary, it's certainly not mandated with any manual as to how many thrusts per minute are required. Each will have their own strokes, short, fast, boring, exciting. There will be someone who prefers it exactly how they're doing it. If someone is enjoying a passing fad by looking into BDSM, why not let them enjoy. Let them take of it what they choose and leave the rest, or all of it. Glad ya came. I think the fact that they got on the wagon, even for a spin in a circle says something. They can brag to the world about all the different nuts on the wagon, but they were here and gave it a ride themselves. They'll probably complain about the other bands of wagons too, the ones that only ate hagus, or sushi, or those that only licked spiked heels. Oh well. Can't we be just that personalized and still be in the same band of wagons. I think we can. Just maybe a different wagon. ~Big

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Real BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:37:24 AM

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Zeno,

Your grasp of the possibilities of S&M is so limited that it saddens me anyone is even bothering to engage you in this moronic thread. Your idiotic cut the rope bullshit has vastly more potential levels than you can clearly grasp and yet you insist on prancing around playing the intellectual. The only "pseudo" anything I see in this thread is a "pseudo intellectual"..

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

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