RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shibari incident

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 11/27/2013 7:28:40 PM

Moonlightmaddnes

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Wow, one of the first things I learned in the lifestyle is never play drunk or with someone who is drunk. I can't believe they were 23 and 24, that sounds like something someone way more naive would do. Yeah I may have been stupid enough to do that at 15 not 23. When he was tying himself to them did they ever wonder how they would get free?

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 11/28/2013 9:54:58 PM

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@ MariaB

... We're often pretty much on the same page with regard to scene-stuff; responsibility, experience, etc. In the case of this accident, though, I'd assign some larger portion of the faulty judgement to guy who did tying, even given that the dead and injured gals were willing participants, and all were somewhat intoxicated.

... At this point we don't know, and may never know the full truth, of how much of their rigging scenario was jointly arranged, understood, and consented, prior to or during the critical events. And even if all three had explicitly agreed to exactly the suspension they performed, the guy's final choice of actions were the pivotal element resulting in injury and death.

... By way of parallel example, if he knows two people are running a red-light eyes-closed and helps them do that, does he warrant more blame if he joins them and all three cars collide?

... I'm not saying that the two women involved should be held blameless, they obviously didn't exercise sound judgement, and their drinking doesn't excuse that. However, by the reasoning above, I'd hold the rigger somewhat more responsible, because his choices and actions added the final should-have-known-better trigger to the accident.

... Reasonable people can agree to disagree about that, of course, but I think that lumping all three as equally faulty is too coarsely parsed.

SB

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 11/30/2013 5:15:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverBoat

@ MariaB

... We're often pretty much on the same page with regard to scene-stuff; responsibility, experience, etc. In the case of this accident, though, I'd assign some larger portion of the faulty judgement to guy who did tying, even given that the dead and injured gals were willing participants, and all were somewhat intoxicated.

I agree with this Silver. Its down to common sense and that common sense was lost. The moment he/they hit to bottle all responsibility became diminished. The thing is though, we don't know what actually happened. Did they drink with the intention of playing after? did the girls dare him after he was pissed? how drunk was he? was he tipsy or could he hardly stand up? were the girls laughing and cheering him on and daring him? These are questions that need to be answered.

quote:

... At this point we don't know, and may never know the full truth, of how much of their rigging scenario was jointly arranged, understood, and consented, prior to or during the critical events. And even if all three had explicitly agreed to exactly the suspension they performed, the guy's final choice of actions were the pivotal element resulting in injury and death.

This is where I disagree because you can't blame final choice on a drunkard. If however, he had already made that choice (to tie them up) before getting drunk, then he is clearly to blame. He's to blame for touching alcohol knowing he's going to be playing with something as dangerous as this and he's to blame for being irresponsible with other peoples lives.

quote:

... By way of parallel example, if he knows two people are running a red-light eyes-closed and helps them do that, does he warrant more blame if he joins them and all three cars collide?

You and I both know that a lot of irresponsible behaviour go on within the vanilla, fetish and BDSM world and a lot of it is influenced people taking substance or drinking alcohol. A good example is bareback sex with a stranger. We are much more likely to contract HIV when we are drunk and looking for a good time than when we are sober and looking for a good time.

Recently I had been at a party where we were all drinking shots. Late into the evening I went for a walk with a group of friends and we ended up at the bottom of a crag with a VF. In my drunken happiness I decided it would be a good idea to free climb it and two of my friends, who were also drunk, thought it sounded like fun. Fortunately Steve was stone cold sober and stopped us. We thought he was a spoil sport but the next morning when I woke up sober I felt sick to my stomach that I was willing to do something like that.

I didn't go out and get pissed with the intention of free climbing a crag. Did this man get drunk with the intention of tying these women up?

quote:

... I'm not saying that the two women involved should be held blameless, they obviously didn't exercise sound judgement, and their drinking doesn't excuse that. However, by the reasoning above, I'd hold the rigger somewhat more responsible, because his choices and actions added the final should-have-known-better trigger to the accident.

... Reasonable people can agree to disagree about that, of course, but I think that lumping all three as equally faulty is too coarsely parsed.

I think this rigger has a lot to answer to and yes, I think he should be up on a manslaughter charge (that's only going on what I know). I don't think he should be up on a murder charge because as far as we know, this was neither pre-meditated or a deliberate killing.

As far as the women's injury and death, I think its tragic. I just hope when the injured woman recovers, she can throw a better light on what happened that fateful night.

< Message edited by MariaB -- 11/30/2013 5:18:19 AM >

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 12/2/2013 8:09:21 PM

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They should nail the guy on either negligent homicide or manslaughter. The fact that he was drunk made it worse, it is like getting into a traffic accident when you are DUI and get into an accident versus getting into one sober, with drinking involved the penalties are higher as they should be.

There have been long arguments on here and elsewhere about drinking, drugs and BD/SM, people getting upset when people suggested play parties should be alcohol and drug free, talking about puritanism and the like, but the reality is that doing BD/SM under the influence is a recipe for disaster, and you don't have to be drunk, just loosened up enough to do something stupid. For the record, I don't favor banning alcohol at play parties, but I also would encourage people playing not to drink until they are done, then enjoy it....

I am saddened that someone died, but I also agree with someone else, this could be a candidate for the Darwin Awards, stupid isn't even the word.

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 12/3/2013 2:25:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/09/14/man-busted-for-killing-girlfriend-in-shibari-bdsm-3p/

Here is a full account of what happened along with a scientific analysis.

https://fetlife.com/users/30136/posts/1764601

They are all to blame. It was no different than being drunk and climbing into a car with a drunk driver, in this case who is to blame? Why you who slid into the seat beside a drunk driver. Nothing to see here, no different than a car with drunk passengers and driver slammed into a tree and two died. The driver is legally at fault even when all are responsible for their own safety and bad judgement and all share in the moral blame.

We have all been there, well I have, so I cannot get all holier than he and trash the guy. I learned and stopped drinking a long time ago but I made mistakes in my time. Thank God those mistakes did not kill someone and thank God I stopped drinking before taking up this lifestyle.

Arturas

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 12/16/2013 2:20:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
There is no such thing as consent to BDSM. You can not consent to someone else inflicting pain on you and in this case, you can't consent to someone tying you up and putting a rope round your neck.

That is entirely dependent on your jurisdiction, but not a universal law.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 12/16/2013 8:24:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
There is no such thing as consent to BDSM. You can not consent to someone else inflicting pain on you and in this case, you can't consent to someone tying you up and putting a rope round your neck.

That is entirely dependent on your jurisdiction, but not a universal law.

It depends on the legal code in the area and how enlightened/unenlightened they are. In some jurisdictions consensual S/M play cannot be legally prosecuted, if it is clear consent was involved, in others, sadly, they basically say what Maria did (some of the worst offenders, ironically, are not bible belt places, some of the worst are very liberal DA's, especially women ones, who see it as abuse, period, especially if it is male/female and the male is the dominant, they never quite got out of the 1970s feminist "S/M is abuse" bullshit, or the 1980's of Catherine Mackinnon and creew......

There was a case like this in NYC, where a guy was sent to prison for abusing a young woman after a weekend of consensual S/M play, and the ADA (who was otherwise excellent in dealing with sex crimes and such), got e-mails from the woman to the guy suppressed, even though they showed it was consensual and she agreed to it, on the grounds they were irrelevant, since you 'can't consent to abuse', and the schmuck judge, whose expiry date I think is done, agreed..on appel, the appelate court ruled that the trial judge and the ADA both erred on where the law stood, and the DA himself refused to prosecute the man...

My take on it the guy was definitely negligent, and the two women were morons. It is all great and good to talk about how people make mistakes, but that doesn't mean that what they did was smart or an accident, either. I have to be honest, anyone doing any level of play that has potential harm in it, I mean serious harm, and does drugs or alcohol before doing it is like putting a blowtorch on in a powder magazine and wondering why it blew up. Like I said, this one is candidate for a darwin award.

(in reply to Guilty1974)

RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 12/20/2013 6:39:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
There is no such thing as consent to BDSM. You can not consent to someone else inflicting pain on you and in this case, you can't consent to someone tying you up and putting a rope round your neck.

That is entirely dependent on your jurisdiction, but not a universal law.

Ok but it is an italian law and since they where in Rome it works that way.

About the charges: italy has a civil law system this gives judges and prosecutor little dicretional freedom.
We have three kind of homicides: negligent, beyond intention, voluntary (those should be very alike involuntary manslaughter, manslaughter and murder but for what I could understand by some other discussions here there are differences).
What differentiate the three kinds is the subjective factor fo intention, voluntary homicide occours when the killer acted with the intention of suppressing a life (no less than 20years convition), beyond intention homicide is when intention was to harm and not to kill but due to unwanted consequences of the harming the victim died (from 10 up to 18 years), negligent homicide is when the action of a person lead to the death of the victim but there was no intention (from 6months up to 5years or 2y to 7y if during DUI).
This is a borderline situation and charges depend on what witnesses and experts report, as using a rope to suffocate someone usually demostrate intention to kill, so the defendant had to demostrate to the special judge, responsible to confirm the charges before the trial (there ia always a judge that reviews the prosecutor's job), that the scene was actively planned by all the three of them, and I'm sure it was not an easy job for the lawyer.
Consent in this case means there was no coercion, from what I read in the fetlife article the prosecutor tried to demostrate that the victim was mentally impaired due to her childhood abuses, this means for the law she could not autodeterminate herself and makes her victiom of statuatory rape so the charges would be of beyond intention homicide, but the preliminary judge decided she did not need a guardian.
The law than define mitigating and aggravating circumstances that will increase or decrease the sentence of 1/3, in this case aggravation could be:
to act for piffling reasons; and sexual arousing is not a valid motivation to risk life.
acting notwithstanding being aware of the risk; he did for sure.
having taken advantage of another person weakness; if the drug was his own than probably this is possible.
the judge will probably grant generic mitigation as they all acted as morons as a group.

in this article there are reported the trial outcomes (sorry but I could not find it in english)

he's been condamned to 4 years and 8 monts for negligent homicide with the aggravation of being aware of the risk, the original sentence was 7 years but had a reduction because he asked for a summary judgment (you can't plea guilty in italy but you can decied to not challenge witnesses and have 1/3 reduction of the sentence).

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 12/20/2013 6:55:52 AM >

(in reply to Guilty1974)

RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 12/21/2013 4:15:01 AM

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Thanks for posting this eulero83. The sentence is as I expected.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 12/23/2013 12:28:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

There is no such thing as consent to BDSM. You can not consent to someone else inflicting pain on you and in this case, you can't consent to someone tying you up and putting a rope round your neck.
Any reference to BDSM and consent in that context you speak of are irrelevant in a court of law and therefore its most likely it will be listed as an unlawful death and someone will be prosecuted for manslaughter.

If you are thinking about R v. Brown, that was a quarter of a century ago, and a few things have changed in the UK. It's more accurate to say that people can't consent to abuse, and not every single thing that is done in the name of BDSM meets the legal tests for abuse.

In the US, consent is either generally or explicitly recognized as a defense to assault and battery charges, and again, there is a level of bodily harm beyond which consent is likely to be invalid in court.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 12/23/2013 8:13:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

There is no such thing as consent to BDSM. You can not consent to someone else inflicting pain on you and in this case, you can't consent to someone tying you up and putting a rope round your neck.
Any reference to BDSM and consent in that context you speak of are irrelevant in a court of law and therefore its most likely it will be listed as an unlawful death and someone will be prosecuted for manslaughter.

If you are thinking about R v. Brown, that was a quarter of a century ago, and a few things have changed in the UK. It's more accurate to say that people can't consent to abuse, and not every single thing that is done in the name of BDSM meets the legal tests for abuse.

In the US, consent is either generally or explicitly recognized as a defense to assault and battery charges, and again, there is a level of bodily harm beyond which consent is likely to be invalid in court.

I think also in the usa any agreement implicating illegal activieties is void, and battery is illegal, this means a slavery contract or a limit's negotiation have no value in court, but a crime to exist needs some sort of intention, so if the victim declared that those kind of activities would give him/her sexual gratification, than this proves that the intention of the defendant were not violent.
In the italian law whenever the outcome is bodly harms charges are of mayhem (it can be very light, light, serious or very serious), this kind of crime can be intentional or negligent, in this case consent can make the difference between the intentional or the negligent one. Law exclude from this charges people involved in certain activities like sports or body arts, but BDSM is not one of this.

edit: in this case without consent to the bondage the defendant would have been charged with "beyond intentions homicide" (similar to your manslaughter concept) and sentenced to a conviction of no less than 10 years and up to 18 years, but only if he could demostrate that despite he placed a rope around another persone neck and applied pressure his intentions were not to kill.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 12/23/2013 8:23:47 AM >

(in reply to EdBowie)

RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 12/24/2013 1:21:28 AM

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This case goes well beyond any discussion of consent.

The point about intent is very valid, there are crimes where thinking that what you are doing is OK is no defense (i.e.statutory rape), but battery isn't one of the them, so a reasonable belief that consent was a green light as it is in sex vs. rape, is supposed to carry weight in court.

So is 'legislative intent'... when we read any criminal statue on battery, do we think they were written to imprison people for a kinky spanking, or for a poke in the nose?

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

There is no such thing as consent to BDSM. You can not consent to someone else inflicting pain on you and in this case, you can't consent to someone tying you up and putting a rope round your neck.
Any reference to BDSM and consent in that context you speak of are irrelevant in a court of law and therefore its most likely it will be listed as an unlawful death and someone will be prosecuted for manslaughter.

If you are thinking about R v. Brown, that was a quarter of a century ago, and a few things have changed in the UK. It's more accurate to say that people can't consent to abuse, and not every single thing that is done in the name of BDSM meets the legal tests for abuse.

In the US, consent is either generally or explicitly recognized as a defense to assault and battery charges, and again, there is a level of bodily harm beyond which consent is likely to be invalid in court.

I think also in the usa any agreement implicating illegal activieties is void, and battery is illegal, this means a slavery contract or a limit's negotiation have no value in court, but a crime to exist needs some sort of intention, so if the victim declared that those kind of activities would give him/her sexual gratification, than this proves that the intention of the defendant were not violent.
In the italian law whenever the outcome is bodly harms charges are of mayhem (it can be very light, light, serious or very serious), this kind of crime can be intentional or negligent, in this case consent can make the difference between the intentional or the negligent one. Law exclude from this charges people involved in certain activities like sports or body arts, but BDSM is not one of this.

edit: in this case without consent to the bondage the defendant would have been charged with "beyond intentions homicide" (similar to your manslaughter concept) and sentenced to a conviction of no less than 10 years and up to 18 years, but only if he could demostrate that despite he placed a rope around another persone neck and applied pressure his intentions were not to kill.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 12/24/2013 4:39:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

This case goes well beyond any discussion of consent.

The point about intent is very valid, there are crimes where thinking that what you are doing is OK is no defense (i.e.statutory rape), but battery isn't one of the them, so a reasonable belief that consent was a green light as it is in sex vs. rape, is supposed to carry weight in court.

So is 'legislative intent'... when we read any criminal statue on battery, do we think they were written to imprison people for a kinky spanking, or for a poke in the nose?

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

I think also in the usa any agreement implicating illegal activieties is void, and battery is illegal, this means a slavery contract or a limit's negotiation have no value in court, but a crime to exist needs some sort of intention, so if the victim declared that those kind of activities would give him/her sexual gratification, than this proves that the intention of the defendant were not violent.
In the italian law whenever the outcome is bodly harms charges are of mayhem (it can be very light, light, serious or very serious), this kind of crime can be intentional or negligent, in this case consent can make the difference between the intentional or the negligent one. Law exclude from this charges people involved in certain activities like sports or body arts, but BDSM is not one of this.

edit: in this case without consent to the bondage the defendant would have been charged with "beyond intentions homicide" (similar to your manslaughter concept) and sentenced to a conviction of no less than 10 years and up to 18 years, but only if he could demostrate that despite he placed a rope around another persone neck and applied pressure his intentions were not to kill.

I cut some of the quotes to not have a long post.
I come from a country with a civil law system so that's totally statuatory, let say the main difference is a precedent has no value for a judge, I find common law systems quite confusing, it's not a judgment just it's hard to me understand the mechanics, so I have problem to understand the concept of "do we think they were written to imprison people for" as for what's my culture laws are just what's written in them with a very little margin of interpretation. I know judges in usa talk to the jury before they discuss and I can only suppose he explains them the relevant juridical principles for the case that are probably the same explicitly written in our statutes.

In our penal code for battery to be considered a crime it's necessary the element of violence, violence is defined as the physical or psychological prevarication of a person over another one, so when there was prior consent this element is missing and the defendant is exonerated. The same element is necessary for a rape accusation, and as you said it is not for corruption of a minor, our law defines that not knowing the age of the victim is no justification, so also intent is not necessary, but if this was not specificated in the article 609 6th comma then it would have been (by the way age of consent is 14 in italy so it's kind of easy to know when it's a no).

In this case consent to a dangerouse game is no justification for the homicide but, togheter with other elements it demostrate there was no intent to kill (so it is not an intentional homicide) nor intention to harm or violence and this exclude the crimes of battery and mayhem, if they were not excluded conviction vould be between 10 and 18 years.
If the consent was for a beating and possible injures than from this beating it resulted in the death of one of the girls than this would have been no justification to the crime of mayhem so the sentence would have been around 18 years.

(in reply to EdBowie)

RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 12/24/2013 3:47:52 PM

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In practice the outcomes between systems seem similar.

Literal reading of statutes can present a bit of a problem. The laws on concealed weapons can be written using nomenclature. "It shall be illegal to carry... dirk, dagger, slung shot, ninja stars, numchucks... etc". And in that case, people have gone to court and argued 'This isn't a dirk, that's the name of a Scottish weapon, and I was carrying a kriss' Or, 'I wasn't carrying 'numchucks', I was carrying a tabak toyok'.

When the legislature sees cases being thrown out because of imprecise language in the law, they may add descriptive wording. "It shall be illegal to carry... any device consisting of 2 or more rigid handles connected by a rope or a chain."

Some professors teaching about legislative intent, like to cite the above, and then ask:

'Does that mean you can go to jail for carrying a jump rope? If not, why not?'

Without understanding whether the legislature wanted to prevent concussions, or ban exercising, it could be difficult to come up with a correct and useful answer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
I cut some of the quotes to not have a long post.
I come from a country with a civil law system so that's totally statuatory, let say the main difference is a precedent has no value for a judge, I find common law systems quite confusing, it's not a judgment just it's hard to me understand the mechanics, so I have problem to understand the concept of "do we think they were written to imprison people for" as for what's my culture laws are just what's written in them with a very little margin of interpretation. I know judges in usa talk to the jury before they discuss and I can only suppose he explains them the relevant juridical principles for the case that are probably the same explicitly written in our statutes.

In our penal code for battery to be considered a crime it's necessary the element of violence, violence is defined as the physical or psychological prevarication of a person over another one, so when there was prior consent this element is missing and the defendant is exonerated. The same element is necessary for a rape accusation, and as you said it is not for corruption of a minor, our law defines that not knowing the age of the victim is no justification, so also intent is not necessary, but if this was not specificated in the article 609 6th comma then it would have been (by the way age of consent is 14 in italy so it's kind of easy to know when it's a no).

In this case consent to a dangerouse game is no justification for the homicide but, togheter with other elements it demostrate there was no intent to kill (so it is not an intentional homicide) nor intention to harm or violence and this exclude the crimes of battery and mayhem, if they were not excluded conviction vould be between 10 and 18 years.
If the consent was for a beating and possible injures than from this beating it resulted in the death of one of the girls than this would have been no justification to the crime of mayhem so the sentence would have been around 18 years.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 12/25/2013 1:36:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

In practice the outcomes between systems seem similar.

Literal reading of statutes can present a bit of a problem. The laws on concealed weapons can be written using nomenclature. "It shall be illegal to carry... dirk, dagger, slung shot, ninja stars, numchucks... etc". And in that case, people have gone to court and argued 'This isn't a dirk, that's the name of a Scottish weapon, and I was carrying a kriss' Or, 'I wasn't carrying 'numchucks', I was carrying a tabak toyok'.

When the legislature sees cases being thrown out because of imprecise language in the law, they may add descriptive wording. "It shall be illegal to carry... any device consisting of 2 or more rigid handles connected by a rope or a chain."

Some professors teaching about legislative intent, like to cite the above, and then ask:

'Does that mean you can go to jail for carrying a jump rope? If not, why not?'

Without understanding whether the legislature wanted to prevent concussions, or ban exercising, it could be difficult to come up with a correct and useful answer.

fist of all I wish you a happy christmas

outcome should be the same as we have the same concept of justice, it's just your system comes from the consuetudinary laws of the barbarian peoples, our comes from the roman statuatory law. Main differences is a jury is useless in our system and precedent judgement are never bonding.
I understand your point and this is probably a consequence of traslating in a staute the many judgments that built the older consuetudinary law.

About weapons I'll translate the best way I can the definition of weapons given by article 585 of the italian criminal code:

For the law's purposes, with weapons it's meant:
1) All shooting devices and all the others whose natural intent is harming a person;
2) All the instruments for assoulting persons, whose carry is explicitly forbidden by law in an absolute way, that means without a valid reason.
Are considered like weapons explosive materials and asphyxiating or blinding gas.

So there is no problem in understanding what a weapon is a kitchen knife is not a weapon as it's natural intent is cooking, a bayonet is as it's meant to aid a soldier in face to face combact.

(in reply to EdBowie)

RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 1/10/2014 8:34:49 AM

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my first bdsm 24 hour exp I was sober and so was master, I had a noose around my neck and the rope was thrown up on a bar, it was tight when I went down on my feet off my toes I passed out, lack of oxygen, I woke up from a sub space, to master slapping my face, both eyes red blood shot for 3 weeks, but alive, I was sober, basically no alcohol should be consumed while doing breath play, its sad what happened to those girls, and honestly this is the reason now I have trust issues and need to trust some one prior to doing breath play, but I def love breath play,

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(in reply to DesFIP)

RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 3/1/2014 9:31:21 AM

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One thing I note is that details differ from the news article and the citations of a scientific paper.

I know journalists change facts to make a more interesting, or understandable to them, story.
I know scientists present evidence in a light to make their conclusions look like it comes on a stone tablet from a burning bush.

The truth may be in there somewhere but the details are hiding for their lives.

(in reply to talander)

RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 3/16/2014 6:30:21 PM

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Stupid can NOT be fixed.
How sad for them all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

Sometimes, stupidity is fatal. Don't be stupid.

(in reply to stef)

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