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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/29/2014 12:55:40 AM   
TNDommeK


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Ok I read that, but didn't understand any of it. Lol I'm blond sometimes.
What's the gist of it?

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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/29/2014 1:24:54 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

Ok I read that, but didn't understand any of it. Lol I'm blond sometimes.
What's the gist of it?

Well, you mentioned recently becoming very interested in Tarot, and questioned how you can be such and follow Christ. The purpose of the excerpt was simply to suggest that there are connections to be found. Tiphereth is the sixth sphere of the Tree of Life, and its manifestation in the four worlds is represented by the sixes of the four suits of the Tarot.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/29/2014 2:04:29 AM >

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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/29/2014 3:16:19 AM   
TNDommeK


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Ah ok...cool. Sorry to come off ignorant but right now I am. I'm reading everything I can and spongin' up everything I can.

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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/29/2014 3:21:30 AM   
Raiikun


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One need never apologize for ignorance IMO, but only for insistence on remaining ignorant. :)

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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/29/2014 3:30:37 AM   
TNDommeK


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This is true.
Isn't there a quote or something to that tune?



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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/29/2014 3:44:02 AM   
Raiikun


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I've heard a quote to that effect before, aye; it's eluding me as to where from though, and I'm quite certain it was worded differently.

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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/29/2014 5:46:09 PM   
TNDommeK


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I really thought more ppl would be commenting on this.

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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/29/2014 6:35:54 PM   
MercTech


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

I really thought more ppl would be commenting on this.


Naa, most have no clue.


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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/29/2014 6:51:15 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

I really thought more ppl would be commenting on this.

Naa, most have no clue.

I seem to remember a thread or two like this (I think one was on the Tarot) doing much better over in Off Topic.

K.


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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/29/2014 6:56:27 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Would saying "stuff this bullshit up your mystic lacuna" get me modspanked?


Why? Seriously, out of all the religions out there, Wicca and Pagan are possibly the least offensive and they aren't trying to recruit followers and force their beliefs on others. Somebody preaching "do no harm" and following that, pretty hard to find anything wrong with that.

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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/30/2014 3:47:05 AM   
TNDommeK


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I remember the Tarot thread, it was pretty cool.


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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/30/2014 12:16:50 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Would saying "stuff this bullshit up your mystic lacuna" get me modspanked?


Why? Seriously, out of all the religions out there, Wicca and Pagan are possibly the least offensive and they aren't trying to recruit followers and force their beliefs on others. Somebody preaching "do no harm" and following that, pretty hard to find anything wrong with that.

I just find all of this crap about the burning times and Gardner singlehandedly ressurecting an ancient prepatriachal religion from the dead laughable. Sorry, but anybody who can take that seriously is in a bad way, even if it is nice that there's a pseudo religious magic system that's a lot less chauvinistically male than the hermetic tradition or the neopagan fuckwits.

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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/30/2014 2:34:05 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

a pseudo religious magic system that's a lot less chauvinistically male than the hermetic tradition...

The Triple Goddess: An Exploration of the Archetypal Feminine from the Hermetic Research Series by Adam McLean

The Principle of Gender embodies the idea that gender is manifested in everything... and manifests itself on all planes. ~The Kybalion

To the modern Hermetic, Nature is the Divine teacher, the Revealer of the Mysteries. A Rosicrucian motto puts it this way, "Art is the Priestess of Nature." Thus, in order to accomplish his or her spiritual Art, the Hermetic must also serve Nature as a Priest or Priestess. The physical world is the manifestation or vessel of Divine Power and Love, and we are uniquely entrusted with caring for that vessel. ~Meta-religion

K.

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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/30/2014 3:37:47 PM   
Moonhead


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Right. So there was nothing at all male about the Golden Dawn, Crowley, or his imitators because you can find a copy of a book that seemingly nobody on Amazon has read. That's alright then. It isn't like Abramelin the Mage starts his text with a disclaimer that women could be allowed to follow his magic but shouldn't be let anywhere near the kabbalah, is it?

It certainly isn't like that bullshit quote you've extracted is saying that it's the duty of a male magician to usurp the female role in his mystical space, after all.

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 3/30/2014 3:43:04 PM >


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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/30/2014 4:24:33 PM   
MissImmortalPain


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I didn't notice this thread until just now, so I am just going to go ahead throw my two cents. I follow chaos. No, I am not a Discordian, but I do find them entertaining. I practice blood magic (and no I won't spell it the other way to humor anyone) I have no issues with churches. I find most of them beautiful. I deeply believe that almost all faiths tell the same story if you do enough research. I don't believe in "black' and "white" only the intent of the person doing the work. In the end the universe hands a person exactly what they have coming to them or need to happen. A path can be easy or hard but it is always meant to be.

And on a side note about the tarot. My sister is wiccan, though it is not something I can agree with, and she has for over forty years used tarot, numerology, and candles. I believe that like many other things (like blood) it just depends on the person you are speaking to and what their personal limits are. I love my ouji (witch) board.

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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/31/2014 4:39:16 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Right. So there was nothing at all male about the Golden Dawn, Crowley, or his imitators because you can find a copy of a book that seemingly nobody on Amazon has read. That's alright then. It isn't like Abramelin the Mage starts his text with a disclaimer that women could be allowed to follow his magic but shouldn't be let anywhere near the kabbalah, is it?

It certainly isn't like that bullshit quote you've extracted is saying that it's the duty of a male magician to usurp the female role in his mystical space, after all.

The Golden Dawn system was based on hierarchy and initiation like the Masonic Lodges; however women were admitted on an equal basis with men. ~Source

As for Abramelin, the provenance of the manuscripts has never been established, the earliest dates are uncertain, and the only sources are Jewish. One scholar attributes the text to a German Jewish Talmudist. From this you'd expect anything different? And ignore Crowley. The Crowley-Harris Tarot is excellent, but the former's personal notions are his alone. He is not an arbiter of Hermeticism.

K.

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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/31/2014 6:24:33 AM   
Kirata


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~ FR ~

As a comment on gender completely separate from the above, most practices are gender neutral (meditation, yoga, sympathetic magic). But the masculine psyche is different from the feminine psyche, our brains are different, and in ritual operations where the psyche is being objectified, gender differences are observed. In ceremonial High Magic, the operator enscribes a circle at the center of which he stands alone. In the complimentary feminine ritual, the women form a circle at the center of which is the Light (a candle, a bonfire). So there is no inherent unpalatable implication in groups being gendered according to the nature of their practices.

K.

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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/31/2014 6:53:52 AM   
Moonhead


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"In 1888, the Isis-Urania Temple was founded in London.[10] In contrast to the S.R.I.A. and Masonry,[11] women were allowed and welcome to participate in the Order in "perfect equality" with men. The Order was more of a philosophical and metaphysical teaching order in its early years. Other than certain rituals and meditations found in the Cipher manuscripts and developed further,[12] "magical practices" were generally not taught at the first temple."
(Your selective quoting of sources is still firing on all cylinders. I suppose comparing the number of named female movers and shakers on that wiki page to the male ones would have borne out my point rather than yours.)

Sadly, Crowley's the only source a lot of twats accept for hermeticism. He certainly went out of his way to make the Golden Dawn far more male than it had been before he infested it like an occult dose of the crabs, no mean feat for a group that started out as a more mystical imitation of masonry with a few token women mixed in, and his own group took this even further. Crowley and his followers and imitators (particularly Kenneth Grant and Austin Osman Spare) are now seen as the last word on the hermetic tradition by most who take that seriously, probably because despite the issues with his libers, he did at least manage to synthesise and condense huge amounts of existing lore into a more or less coherent structure. For most fans of chaos magic, the main appeal is that it's dumped all of this pseudo historical crap, so you can start off from using just one book of magic by Trevor Hine or Peter Carroll, rather than having to wade through a load of additional sources to puzzle out wtf half of Crowley, Abramelin or Solomon is on about. This is also, I suspect part of the appeal of Wicca: despite the amount of stuff Gardner lifted from Crowley, he put it into a new context, simplified its workings, and focussed it more on the individual witch (or coven)'s workings than an exaggerated respect for a tradition that's (largely) no less bullshit than Gardner's. In this respect the notion of witches compiling their own book of shadows sticking to what actually works for them was quite revolutionary, and an obvious precursor to chaos magic. (You could also make similar claims for the "Simon" Necronomicon, if only to wind up the more pompous kabbalists and Crowley groupies.)

With the possible exception of the Black Pullet, the provenance of all these books are uncertain, and a lot of the time probably horseshit. One of the nice things about Wicca is that at least it's obvious who faked the texts and when he did it.

What is inarguable, though, is the point you're dismissing. The hermetic tradition is often devoted to valorising itself by insisting on a deep magical tradition that's closed to the unitiated, obsessed with power structures and seniority, and infested with male control freaks from the birth of the Golden Dawn on down. ("Simon" takes these types to task with admirable humour and restraint in Dead Names.) Gerald Gardner found this far too male for his taste, and established his own tradition as a more female and fluffier alternative, in which role it has endured to this day. There are an awful lot more female wiccans than hermetic mages, put it that way, despite the efforts of twits like Alex Sanders.

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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/31/2014 7:11:38 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

"In 1888, the Isis-Urania Temple was founded in London.[10] In contrast to the S.R.I.A. and Masonry,[11] women were allowed and welcome to participate in the Order in "perfect equality" with men...

(Your selective quoting of sources is still firing on all cylinders...

Yes, that's very different from what I quoted...

The Golden Dawn system was based on hierarchy and initiation like the Masonic Lodges; however women were admitted on an equal basis with men.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I suppose comparing the number of named female movers and shakers on that wiki page to the male ones would have borne out my point rather than yours.)

Meh. I count 18 men and 9 women (sue me if I miscounted, it's still early for old folks).

K.



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RE: Pagan/Wiccan/Druidism Discussion - 3/31/2014 7:35:01 AM   
Moonhead


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It may be very different from what you quoted, but it's from the site you linked your quotation to. I find the quotation mark there suggestive.
Given that several of the women cited in that wiki weren't actually members of the Golden Dawn, you probably did miscount, yes.
Even if you didn't, twice as many men as women is evidence of a group admitting members on an equal basis how, exactly? If it was thirteen of both, that line would sound a bit more credible...

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