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Nature vs nurture - 7/9/2006 1:09:12 PM

missturbation

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On reccomendation from a thread here on CM i have bought and started to read 'Screw the roses, Send me the thorns.' I'm only 12 pages in but as is in my nature, curiosity and forever questioning (good or bad i don't know) i find myself here asking for your opinion on a couple of things.

"Having the submissive set her own limits leads one to wonder who is really running the show. Where people are doing a now and again role play, this is a valid question. With a 'natural' submissive, however, an innate craving to please her dominant is strong and unquestionable. A 'natural' dominant also feels an instinctive need to feel in charge, yet neither can realise these parts of themselves without the other."

The mentioning of 'natural' dominants / submissives led me to wonder -
1. Can you be taught / learn to be submissive / dominant?
2. If so can you live the 'lifestyle' as completely and fulfillingly as a 'natural' submissive / dominant?

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RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/9/2006 1:58:25 PM

LotusSong

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Good questions:

Yes you can train someone to be mechanincally a dom/,e or submissive.. i.e. how to act.. what to say etc. But if they are not dom or sub of spirit..I feel there is no way to "teach" that anymore than you can teach someone to be another sexuality. This is my opinion bases on observation and conversations with subs that have been sessioned by a person who was "trained to be" domme.

If it was possible.. we could train cats to be dogs an mice to be fish.

Lotus

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RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/9/2006 2:56:51 PM

Padriag

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

The mentioning of 'natural' dominants / submissives led me to wonder -
1. Can you be taught / learn to be submissive / dominant?
2. If so can you live the 'lifestyle' as completely and fulfillingly as a 'natural' submissive / dominant?

Simply put, yes its possible to learn to be submissive or dominant. But there is very little literature on the topic. Its possible because all human behavior is learned. None of us is born dominant, submissive, friendly, rude, gentle, mean, rational or homicidal... we learn it. But most of that learning isn't conscious and we don't know ourselves how we learned it or when. So, not understanding that we call those aspects of our personality "natural" because we have no other explanation.

But, while it is learned, its not so easy to teach. Teaching requires understanding, and as I just pointed out, most don't understand how these things are learned. If you don't know that, you can't teach it. There's also a general lack of understanding about exactly what a submissive or dominant are, this is especially true about dominants. Most of the literature you see in this lifestyle deals with the submission, but there only a fraction of that devoted to dominance. However, provide someone had a clear enough understanding of human psychology, of submission, of dominance, it could indeed be taught. Just isn't going to be easy.

People can live any lifestyle as fulfillingly as they allow themselves too. All that really boils down to is living according to your expectations. If your life is what you expected it to be, you're going to feel happy. If it isn't, then you're going to feel a degree of disatisfaction in direct proportion to the amount of expectations that haven't been fulfilled. Its pretty much that simple.

And for the record, a cat can be trained to behave as a dog, just as a mouse can be trained to perform tricks and do things it otherwise would not do. Any living organism can be taught to behave in virtually any manner, within its physical limitations, precisely because behavior is learned. This is even true to a degree of plants, which can be trained to grow in specific ways, for example, bonsai gardening.

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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/9/2006 3:05:18 PM

LotusSong

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I will respectfuly disagree.

Lotus

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RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/9/2006 4:07:00 PM

ownedgirlie

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I believe one can be taught to "act" or behave submissively, however if it does not come from the heart, if one is not compelled by some internal force to live as who they are, then perhaps the depths of one's submission might be limited. I would imagine the same would apply toward domination, as well.

I believe we are all born with personalities - you see that in the smallest of babies.(I'm recalling one of my nephews who, at the age of 2, hated having his hands dirty, and clean up every mess he saw - he is still a neat freak). We are all born with characteristics and traits that might be nurtured or ignored as we grow into adulthood. We often hear of people having "a natural talent" in areas having nothing to do with D/s. "She's a natural" is said of actors, singers, artists, writers, and the like. Why would that not apply toward any inner drive/personality type?

(in reply to missturbation)

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RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/9/2006 4:13:07 PM

Caretakr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I believe one can be taught to "act" or behave submissively, however if it does not come from the heart, if one is not compelled by some internal force to live as who they are, then perhaps the depths of one's submission might be limited. I would imagine the same would apply toward domination, as well.

I believe we are all born with personalities - you see that in the smallest of babies.(I'm recalling one of my nephews who, at the age of 2, hated having his hands dirty, and clean up every mess he saw - he is still a neat freak). We are all born with characteristics and traits that might be nurtured or ignored as we grow into adulthood. We often hear of people having "a natural talent" in areas having nothing to do with D/s. "She's a natural" is said of actors, singers, artists, writers, and the like. Why would that not apply toward any inner drive/personality type?

I have always felt that we have natural gifts and abilities born into us-and that it merely takes the right relationships and circumstances to bring them to thier fullest potential.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

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RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/9/2006 4:38:43 PM

stardancer00

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Part of life's truest joy comes from the discovery of those unique traits an individual possesses. As those are brought to the surface and developed, the experience of living becomes intensified, opened, deepened, and more authentic. One of the most beautiful aspects of M/s and d/s is the way the hidden self is uncovered as intimacy is attained. Yes, it is possible to learn to be submissive or dominant in the way one is able to learn a role, but to uncover one's true self, the parts of self that are most authentic, while not an easy task, is a much more fruitful goal.

star

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Post #: 7

RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/9/2006 4:48:11 PM

Caretakr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stardancer00

Part of life's truest joy comes from the discovery of those unique traits an individual possesses. As those are brought to the surface and developed, the experience of living becomes intensified, opened, deepened, and more authentic. One of the most beautiful aspects of M/s and d/s is the way the hidden self is uncovered as intimacy is attained. Yes, it is possible to learn to be submissive or dominant in the way one is able to learn a role, but to uncover one's true self, the parts of self that are most authentic, while not an easy task, is a much more fruitful goal.

star

There is an interesting thing that happens with M/s star.

And I believe this to begin with the objectification idea-that the Master owns everything of the slave. So there tends to be a very bold and inexorable exploration of the slave by the Master (and it goes the other way too,of course)

Moreover,when you have the attitude that something really belongs to you-you are less likely to want to give up on it when you find a few things that may bother you. That one can at least attempt to make adjustments, to bring it into a happier participation in the dynamic.

And in the long run-with the right match-you find a wonderful intimacy in the investment and acceptance you have in each other. Now this is not to say you can't do this in other relationhips-but individuality, and accepting that is stressed in the vanilla-encouraging the keeping of boundaries.

In D/s,M/s we don't want those- we want blending, and assimilation. You still very much exist as individuals-but the dynamic itself blurs the lines in charming ways.

(in reply to stardancer00)

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RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/9/2006 4:50:27 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

Moreover,when you have the attitude that something really belongs to you-you are less likely to want to give up on it when you find a few things that may bother you. That one can at least attempt to make adjustments, to bring it into a happier participation in the dynamic.

Amen.

(in reply to Caretakr)

Post #: 9

RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/9/2006 7:11:34 PM

diamonddreamlove

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I believe we are born wired a certain way some are fortunate enough to have the D/s wiring. Yes we can even teach rats how to get the cheese but that is just teaching the maze they already have the desire for the cheese. I believe in a combination of nature and nurture that results in each of us having a similar interest in bdsm. I say similar because there are no two exactly alike in this life anymore than there is in the vanilla world.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 10

RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/9/2006 7:35:23 PM

amativedame

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
1. Can you be taught / learn to be submissive / dominant?
2. If so can you live the 'lifestyle' as completely and fulfillingly as a 'natural' submissive / dominant?

I think you can most certainly be taught/trained to have either a submissive/dominant personality, but depending on what stage of life you are at it varies in difficulty. IMO I think we are all born somewhere along the spectrum, but that can change depending on the way our lives are while we grow up. You model your parents (or guardians, authority figures, what have you) growing up. They affect your life, their actions and their words can change everything about you. It's just as possible to totally reverse your natural instincts as it is to keep them intact. Its all possible because that sense of self is still forming.

Could you take a dominant person at the age or 20 (or 30 or 40, its just an example) and make them submissive (or vise versa;) yes and no. They have a sense of self, who they are is defined. I would say it is possible, but it would mean great pains an an awful lot of planing (and not to mention a certain amount of intellect.) You would need the knowledge to do it, you aren't going to sit down and decide one day and snap your fingers and make it happen. It would take years, maybe even a decade or more depending on the person...and would be extremely gradual. I suppose if the person was "willing" it would be a lot easier, but IMO if the person was willing... they would already be in the spectrum the goal is in. If they are already someone in that realm is it really training? Is it not more along the lines of bringing out natural inclinations?

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RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/9/2006 10:10:33 PM

Hercuckslave

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perhaps it is different for all people. there is no one true way to be dominant or submissive. but i think for many who live D/s as a lifestyle and a structure for their relationships, it is something that is inborn. for me, i was born a slave. it is as strong an orientation as, say, being gay. i am what i am. it was not for me to decide what i was, but merely to discover what i am, be at peace with it, and find a suitable partner. i can recall from my earliest rememberances of childhood a submissive desire towards women. it was not something i learned, but rather something that was born into my wiring. i didn't know what it was, nor did i have the vocabulary to describe it. i only knew it was there. when i was in my early teens, and got my hands on pornography as most teenage boys do, i wasn't excited with the pictures of the beautiful naked women as my friends were. i appreciated their beauty, but i wasn't turned on like my friends. then i found a penthouse letters magazine that had some femdomme articles in it. it was like someone had plugged me into a light socket. i knew that was me. throughout my early 20's i experimented with D/s with my girlfriends, and even with some pro-dommes. it wasn't until my later 20's, after years of experimenting, reading, learning, and soul searching that i discovered that it wasn't merely a kink for me. it was something deep in my soul. i am a very strong, confident, assertive man. i am a natural leader, outspoken, gregarious, and successful in most anything i try (sorry if that sounds conceited). but i am also a pleaser at heart, and in many ways a little boy who craves acceptance, rules, bounderies and limitations. i began to realize that i am truly a slave-heart, and needed a woman in my life who would take charge. i am a well rounded person and need interactions on many levels. i consider myself to be blessed beyond words to have found Mistress. she is my best friend, my confidante, co-protector, life companion, soul mate, and above all, my Queen, Goddess, and Mistress.

for me, nature is the root of it. i don't know why, nor do i care. it is who i am, and i am lucky to have found someone who not only accepts me for who i am, but feels blessed to have me in her life.

M's m

(in reply to missturbation)

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RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/9/2006 11:50:18 PM

Kedikat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

The mentioning of 'natural' dominants / submissives led me to wonder -
1. Can you be taught / learn to be submissive / dominant?
2. If so can you live the 'lifestyle' as completely and fulfillingly as a 'natural' submissive / dominant?

The thread title caught me.
But the two items above are interesting in themselves.
I suppose you could read up on the tactics and results of intensive torture and see how totally a person can be broken and remolded. But I suppose that is beyond this level of question.
It might be a matter of someone or some circumstances awakening or strengthening an already present trait. Our instinctual selves contain many traits that are more or less in effect, or subdued by our more intellectual selves.

In one circumstance, submissive traits can be harmful to self and abused, so they are denied. In better circumstance they might be benificial and pursued.

A person who has good self esteem should be able to choose. Limits, and the submission itself. If it continues to be benificial the submissive role may deepen.

I think overall, there is nature there. But in a well balanced person, nurture is the trigger to doing and the path.

< Message edited by Kedikat -- 7/9/2006 11:51:18 PM >

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RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/10/2006 12:03:06 AM

DoctorDubious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

A 'natural' dominant also feels an instinctive need to feel in charge, yet neither can realise these parts of themselves without the other."

The mentioning of 'natural' dominants / submissives led me to wonder -
1. Can you be taught / learn to be submissive / dominant?
2. If so can you live the 'lifestyle' as completely and fulfillingly as a 'natural' submissive / dominant?

Hi Miss ... and all...

I cannot speak sensibly about the exact situation you ask about...
... but I can throw a little light by way of my own life
around the corners and edges of this important question...

>>Can you be taught / learn to be submissive / dominant?

It's been for me,
impossible to do the opposite...
to learn, train, therapize, pharmaceutical-ize
or in any way, change my life path
to stop doing bondage and dominance with women lovers.

By some weird concidence, miracle, or act of G-d,
I started tying up my very first girlfriend, and spanking her,
when I was 14.

We got caught and totally busted
three times that first summer....
and by the end of that summer we both
had been to get what they called counselling in those days.

Useless.

They couldn't even say the word sex.

I also spend endless, VERY uncomfortable hours
with the parish priest, who had no idea how to talk
to this little perverted soul....

I'd estimate I've had several thousand therapy hours
that had zero lasting effect to make me "normal'.

And I tried to change,
did everything I could think of...
but those dark, mysterious urges and cravings
could not be therapized, drugged, or counselled away.

>>A 'natural' dominant also feels an instinctive need to feel in charge, yet neither can realise these parts of themselves without the other

For me, and I suspect for many here,
there are huge parts of yourself that cannot be alive
other than by letting your mind go ...
and letting your body and heart and guts go...
.... and just fuckin doin this weird shit...

>>you live the 'lifestyle' as completely and fulfillingly as a 'natural' submissive / dominant?

I don't have a "lifestyle" ... I just have a life
and without bondage and the dance of surrender/authority
it's not a life I could bear to lead.

Forget fulfilled.... I have no idea if I'm fulffilled or not,
I'm not even really alive if I don't have
these relationships going on.

Fuck, sorry to be such a drag on this one.
I've been marvelously fortunate to find,
and almost deserve the love and surrender
of women far finer than myself.

But even if I didn't... I know I couldnt stop those cravings and longings....

DD

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 14

RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/10/2006 12:13:22 AM

Padriag

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Couple brief points.

First, you don't need extreme torture to extensively modify someones personality, actually you don't need torture or drugs at all. Quite a lot can be done just through simple interaction. In fact, torture as a means of behavior modification really isn't all that great a method, except in movies of course.

Second, I find a lot of things about this topic interesting. Its come up before and always there are a lot of people who believe its all or mostly nature. Very few will have a rational reason for why they believe that, they just do. What is interesting to me about that is why so many choose to believe something, to the point they will even strongly defend that belief, without evidence to support that belief. To me, that says that there is something about it that is important to them personally, a personal significance to it.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to Kedikat)

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RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/10/2006 12:25:59 AM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
1. Can you be taught / learn to be submissive / dominant?
2. If so can you live the 'lifestyle' as completely and fulfillingly as a 'natural' submissive / dominant?

I believe that you can be taught to act and respond from a dominant or submissive perspective. I don't believe that you can ever be taught what it is like for it to simply be who you are in your heart and soul if that is not who you are at your core to begin with. It would be kind of like teaching me how to be a domme. I'm sure that I could learn it well enough that from the outside you may think I was a domme....but on the inside of me I would still be submissive and no amount of teaching in the world could undo who I simply am.

As to your second question...that is one that I can't answer. I can look at it and think that it would not be as fulfilling for me if I were to have to make constant conscious choices that were sometimes a battle against who I am in order to be this way....but I can't answer what makes for a "complete and fulfilling" life for someone else.

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RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/10/2006 12:45:05 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Second, I find a lot of things about this topic interesting. Its come up before and always there are a lot of people who believe its all or mostly nature. Very few will have a rational reason for why they believe that, they just do. What is interesting to me about that is why so many choose to believe something, to the point they will even strongly defend that belief, without evidence to support that belief. To me, that says that there is something about it that is important to them personally, a personal significance to it.

Actually.....I think people have been saying it's a combo. A lot of us tried to takle Celeste's "why why why??" question last week and really could not come up with definitive answers as to why we are hardwired this way. I'm not sure how anyone can answer (short of some genetic testing) why they have any of their personality characteristics. But I believe we are born with certain traits and those traits are either fostered or buried as we grow.

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 17

RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/10/2006 1:19:31 AM

Padriag

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Actually.....I think people have been saying it's a combo. A lot of us tried to takle Celeste's "why why why??" question last week and really could not come up with definitive answers as to why we are hardwired this way. I'm not sure how anyone can answer (short of some genetic testing) why they have any of their personality characteristics. But I believe we are born with certain traits and those traits are either fostered or buried as we grow.

See that's the thing, the assumption that you're hardwired in any way at all. People can't come up with an explanation for that or a rational reason for it, or proof of it. Yet a lot of people assume that is how it is. Now in the absence of any evidence of something being true, why assume its true?

There is body of research that says it isn't that way, that things like dominance, submission, honesty, being messy, etc. are behaviors that we learn. Some of these traits are learned so early in life we have no conscious memory of it. Much of our basic personality is fully formed by the time we are six years old.

I read these discussions and some related ones and I can't help but wonder if we've made dominance and submission into sacred cows. Some of the attitudes about dominance and submission I see almost remind me of the old feudal notion of divine providence. Its almost as though there are many that don't want to accept even the idea that it could be a learned behavior. Perhaps because, if it could be learned, then perhaps anyone could learn to do it. And if anyone could learn to do it, being mr domly dom or ms subbly sub, doesn't seem quite as mysteriously special anymore, at least to some.

I'm open minded enough to consider biological causes for dominance or submission, things like varying levels of hormones and chemicals in the brain (like different levels of 5HT and 5HIAA in the brain, the two forms of serotonin which do affect behaviors such as aggressiveness). But the majority of research I've seen on human behavior points to environmental, not biological causes. Its learned, not inborn. There are arguments about how our senses control our perceptions, which in turn affect how we process experiences and thus what we learn. For example, a blind person doesn't experience the world the same way a sighted person does, different perception means they learn different things from the same experiences and thus develop differently. So perhaps a case could be made that somehow, perhaps higher or lower levels of certain hormones, differences in our senses, could make dominant or submissive behavior more likely. But to actually cause it, that would be a very difficult argument to prove.

Still, I find it curious that even in the face of all that, some will insist that its all nature (and there are some in this thread who have said exactly that, and I suspect they will continue to do so no matter what). There are those who will say they were born submissive, born to be a slave, born dominant regardless of any evidence to the contrary. And when I see that kind of behavior, I can't help but wonder, why?

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 18

RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/10/2006 1:39:50 AM

ownedgirlie

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Well...you seem to be saying genetics has nothing to do with it (unless I am misunderstanding?) and I am saying I believe it has some to do with it...and not holding up any sacred cow, God knows we're humans like anyone else.

I was curious, though so I looked up a few things:

Genetic link to "novelty seeking" personalities found on Chromosome 11. Two papers published in "Nature Genetics" discussing it (this was also claimed in "Science Worlds", a UK magazine, as well as Albert Chenevier Hospital in France):
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p960401.html
http://www.scenta.co.uk/scenta/news.cfm?cit_id=899428&FAArea1=widgets.content_view_1
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-08/ace-tgc080703.php

Behavioral Genetics being studied:
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/behavior.shtml#2

Professor of Genetics at UCLA claims complex behaviors linked to more than one gene, yet behavior can only partially be attributed to genetics:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1589/is_2001_March_27/ai_72050591

Wikipedia discusses the possible genetics of shyness:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shyness

If nothing else, it's a fascinating theory to explore, and I had fun perusing these sites. I saw other articles but could not ascertain the credibility of their websites. There are a couple of other sites, such as Rice University, that are inconclusive in their studies, although the are studying the genetics of twins, separated at birth, to compare similarities.

Interesting to think about, anyway...didn't mean to go off on such a tangent. My OCD must have kicked in (Hmm, is OCD genetic?!)

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 19

RE: Nature vs nurture - 7/10/2006 1:55:58 AM

irishbynature

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Some scientists think that people behave as they do according to genetic predispositions or even "animal instincts." This is known as the "nature" theory of human behavior. Other scientists believe that people think and behave in certain ways because they are taught to do so. This is known as the "nurture" theory of human behavior.
Fast-growing understanding of the human genome has recently made it clear that both sides are partly right. Nature endows us with inborn abilities and traits; nurture takes these genetic tendencies and molds them as we learn and mature. End of story, right? Nope. The "nature vs nurture" debate still rages on, as scientist fight over how much of who we are is shaped by genes and how much by the environment. http://genealogy.about.com/cs/geneticgenealogy/a/nature_nurture.htm

I think it's a bit a both. Recent studies on DNA etc..have pointed out that some are born with a predisposition to various illnesses, including depression/anxiety..however, they haven't proven that behavior is shaped by DNA. I believe behavior is learned but the desire to 'serve' as a submissive is a personality trait. Just my opinion.
Warmly

Irishbynature

_____________________________

What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 20

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