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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/9/2014 6:01:26 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

That the Muslim terrorists keep missing doesn't make them lesser terrorists, nor void the fact that they hide behind women and children while targeting women and childre

1. Wow, there's a shift - so implicitly you *do* see the IDF as terrorists, now!
2. It isn't 'fact' that these 'terrorists hide behind women and children'. It doesn't matter if you say that in every post, on any given subject from here till the end of all time, Sanity, it still won't be 'fact'. You want to be careful, Sanity. Repeated purveying of propaganda as 'fact' was a well-known fascist tactic. SubrosaDom might call *you* a fascist next. Whatever will you do then?

Calling people fascists seems to be all you have.

Give them credit Bama. Their vocabulary is much richer and includes: Nazis, morons, imbeciles, pathetic [person], and more.

My mistake

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to subrosaDom)

RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/9/2014 6:06:21 PM

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< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/9/2014 6:07:58 PM >

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/9/2014 6:07:06 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

That the Muslim terrorists keep missing doesn't make them lesser terrorists, nor void the fact that they hide behind women and children while targeting women and childre

1. Wow, there's a shift - so implicitly you *do* see the IDF as terrorists, now!
2. It isn't 'fact' that these 'terrorists hide behind women and children'. It doesn't matter if you say that in every post, on any given subject from here till the end of all time, Sanity, it still won't be 'fact'. You want to be careful, Sanity. Repeated purveying of propaganda as 'fact' was a well-known fascist tactic. SubrosaDom might call *you* a fascist next. Whatever will you do then?

Calling people fascists seems to be all you have.

Reread the posts. SubrosaDom called *me* a fascist.

When you pretend that Hamas' intent to exterminate the Israelis is not the major point what do you expect? True you say to don't approve of genocide but then you turn around and make up excuses for Hamas and attack Israel for shooting back and not having bullets that circle the shields to find the people hiding behind them.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/9/2014 6:10:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

That the Muslim terrorists keep missing doesn't make them lesser terrorists, nor void the fact that they hide behind women and children while targeting women and childre

1. Wow, there's a shift - so implicitly you *do* see the IDF as terrorists, now!
2. It isn't 'fact' that these 'terrorists hide behind women and children'. It doesn't matter if you say that in every post, on any given subject from here till the end of all time, Sanity, it still won't be 'fact'. You want to be careful, Sanity. Repeated purveying of propaganda as 'fact' was a well-known fascist tactic. SubrosaDom might call *you* a fascist next. Whatever will you do then?

Calling people fascists seems to be all you have.

Reread the posts. SubrosaDom called *me* a fascist.

That's incorrect. You advocated majority opinion as the arbiter of truth. I stated that was fascist. That's true. I didn't say YOU personally were a fascist. There is a difference.

< Message edited by subrosaDom -- 8/9/2014 6:21:28 PM >

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/9/2014 6:28:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

That's incorrect. You advocated majority opinion as the arbiter of truth. I stated that was fascist. That's true. I didn't say YOU personally were a fascist. There is a difference.

Oh please. I did not advocate majority opinion as 'the arbiter of truth'. I advanced it, if anything, as a sign of there being more likely to be truth involved as a result of its presence. That notwithstanding, it really is drivel to say that the idea of 'majority opinion as arbiter of truth' is inherently a 'fascist idea'. I'm pretty damned certain that you *know* that it's drivel, too.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/9/2014 6:31:34 PM

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quote:

When you pretend that Hamas' intent to exterminate the Israelis is not the major point what do you expect? True you say to don't approve of genocide but then you turn around and make up excuses for Hamas and attack Israel for shooting back and not having bullets that circle the shields to find the people hiding behind them.

I haven't made any excuses for Hamas. Not anywhere on this thread. You can keep on saying that, Bama, in the increasingly desperate belief that this will make this true, but it just refuses to be the case. On the other hand - are you not making excuses for the IDF killing non-combatants in Gaza - including the children?

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/9/2014 6:33:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

That's incorrect. You advocated majority opinion as the arbiter of truth. I stated that was fascist. That's true. I didn't say YOU personally were a fascist. There is a difference.

Oh please. I did not advocate majority opinion as 'the arbiter of truth'. I advanced it, if anything, as a sign of there being more likely to be truth involved as a result of its presence. That notwithstanding, it really is drivel to say that the idea of 'majority opinion as arbiter of truth' is inherently a 'fascist idea'. I'm pretty damned certain that you *know* that it's drivel, too.

Majority rule in and of itself means the denial of rights to anyone not in the majority. Unless you have a constitutional republic that delimits unalienable rights or the equivalent. Otherwise, any and all rights are ultimately up for grabs. Meaning there are no rights, just favorites. I'm pretty damned certain you've read Orwell.

_____________________________

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.

- Nietzsche

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/9/2014 10:09:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

The numbers aren't significant

Yep. Hundreds of injuries, maimings and deaths of children - neither here nor there, so long as the stated motivation is righteous.

This is getting almost bizarre. This view of the IDF's attacks seems, to me, akin to some mad driver who mows down children in his car but considers himself morally fine because he always leans out of the window after each killing and says 'Oh, whoops, sorry about that. I didn't really want to kill you, I just didn't give a flying fuck if you died. Big difference, I'm sure you'll agree!'

All those reports have been seriously questioned as to their validity. You can read about it in the BBC, not quite famous for being pro-Israeli. Neither is the NY Times. So there you go: no Fox News, which should make you elated. The only source of the reports is essentially the Hamas health ministry. Known for agitprop and disinformation. The numbers of people killed demographically don't make any sense. Suggesting propaganda. Aside from the fact that Hamas bears moral responsibility in the first and only place.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28688179

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/06/world/middleeast/civilian-or-not-new-fight-in-tallying-the-dead-from-the-gaza-conflict.html?_r=1

Of course there will be lots of discrepancies about numbers killed and how many of them were children women and elderly men beyond fighting age.

There is discrepancy also on your BBC link. In it, it mentions a piece from New York Times. Here is an excerpt: An analysis by the New York Times looked at the names of 1,431 casualties and found that "the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll. They are 9% of Gaza's 1.7 million residents, but 34% of those killed whose ages were provided."

I might be wrong and please correct me if I am or the link I pulled the following statistics from not credible (Index Mundi). These statistics show the percentage of men between the ages of 20 to 29 are much higher than what NYT indicated.

Population 1,763,387 (July 2013 est.)

Age structure 0-14 years: 43.5% (male 394,108/female 372,897)
15-24 years: 20.9% (male 188,626/female 179,529)
25-54 years: 29.6% (male 268,122/female 254,630)
55-64 years: 3.4% (male 29,682/female 29,933)
65 years and over: 2.6% (male 18,701/female 27,159) (2013 est.)

Median age total: 18.1 years

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Everywhere man blames nature and fate, yet his fate is mostly but the echo of his character and passions, his mistakes and weaknesses... Democritus

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/9/2014 10:34:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Reacting to attacks?

They really have you fooled, don't they.

I appreciate that rightists have a pretty fucking poor grasp of maths, but let's go again....

Remind me ... how many civilian casualties on both sides?

The numbers aren't significant in light of the fact that the Jews are targeting rocket sites, while the Muslims are targeting civilians, and the Muslims are also using civilians as shields

Here some numbers for you to ponder:

1. Population of Israel: 8.16m [Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics]
2. Population of Gaza: 1.76m [Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics]
3. Population density of Israel, per square kilometre: 392 [CIA]
4. Population density of Gaza, per square kilometre: 4,822 [Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics]
5. Lethal radius of standard 2,000lb bomb in metres: 366 [Wikipedia]
6. Maximum ordnance payload of Israeli F-16 aircraft: 6,800kg [www.F-16.net]
7. Maximum payload of biggest rockets fired from Gaza (M302): 144kg [IDF]
8. Payload of most common Qassam missile: 9kg [IDF]
9. Number of rockets fired from Gaza into Israel from July 8th to August 5th: 3,360 [IDF]
10. Number of Israelis killed by rockets from July 8th to August 5th: 2 + one foreign
11. Number of Israelis killed by rockets in previous 18 months: Nil [Wikipedia]
12. Number of rockets intercepted by Iron Dome missile defense system: 584 [IDF]
13. Number of Israeli strikes on Gaza from July 8th to August 5th: 4,762 [IDF]
14. Total Israeli deaths during Operation Protective Edge: 67 [IDF]
15. Total Palestinian deaths from July 8th to August 5th: 1,938 [Palestinian Centre for Human Rights]
16. Number of Palestinian children killed by Israeli fire: 460 [Palestinian Centre for Human Rights]
17. Total Palestinians injured: 9,567 [Ministry of Health, Gaza; UNRWA]
18. Number of Palestinian homes destroyed or seriously damaged: 10,690 [UN]
19. Number of Palestinians displaced by fighting/lost homes: 485,000 [UN]
20. Proportion of civilian to military deaths among Palestinians: 70-85% [Ministry of Health, Gaza; UN; independent NGOs]
21. Total estimated cost of building tunnels: $30m [IDF]
22. Direct cost to Israel of Operation Protective Edge: $1.7 billion [Israeli Channel 2 TV]
23. Estimated cost of restoring services and reconstruction in Gaza: $6 billion [Palestinian government minister, quoted in news reports]

Number of Americans who would have died given similar death rate: 990,000+

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/9/2014 10:52:55 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

When you pretend that Hamas' intent to exterminate the Israelis is not the major point what do you expect? True you say to don't approve of genocide but then you turn around and make up excuses for Hamas and attack Israel for shooting back and not having bullets that circle the shields to find the people hiding behind them.

I haven't made any excuses for Hamas. Not anywhere on this thread. You can keep on saying that, Bama, in the increasingly desperate belief that this will make this true, but it just refuses to be the case. On the other hand - are you not making excuses for the IDF killing non-combatants in Gaza - including the children?

No I don't I say that Hamas is a fault for hiding behind non-combatants including children a distinction you seem unable to comprehend. I have clearly stated that I consider the civilians, including the children, of Gaza to be the victims. However I cannot say that Israel should just absorb the damage without fighting back. You say you just don't want them to do anything to harm civilians but you have never told us how they are supposed to do this other than just fighting back. Your example of the tanker firing into the school, what was in the school? Were children present? What munitions was Hamas storing in said school. The UN acknowledged that Hamas was storing weapons in schools then attacked Israel for hitting the schools. They weren't hitting a school they were hitting a munitions depot.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/9/2014 11:25:30 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

When you pretend that Hamas' intent to exterminate the Israelis is not the major point what do you expect? True you say to don't approve of genocide but then you turn around and make up excuses for Hamas and attack Israel for shooting back and not having bullets that circle the shields to find the people hiding behind them.

I haven't made any excuses for Hamas. Not anywhere on this thread. You can keep on saying that, Bama, in the increasingly desperate belief that this will make this true, but it just refuses to be the case. On the other hand - are you not making excuses for the IDF killing non-combatants in Gaza - including the children?

Since you know that any decent people could do it, just how do the Israelis fight back without any civilian casualties.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/10/2014 1:34:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom
You and your supporters ask for proof and evidence and when it's provided, do you refute it?

Are you living in an alternate universe? My posts and claims are always backed up by citations usually from respected independent international sources.

Pro-Zionist posts almost never produce supporting evidence or citations, and, on the odd occasion they do, rarely do they come from reputable or independent sources.

For instance, look at the claims and counter claims about the use of human shields by either side on this thread. Despite repeated allegations from pro-Zionist that Hamas is using human shields in Gaza, not a shred of independent evidence has been advance to support this claim. To the best of my memory, all the evidence cited in this thread has asserted the opposite - that there is no evidence that Hamas is using Gazans as human shields. A lot of credible evidence, (some of it irrefutable)* has been cited to prove the IDF used human shields regularly. Despite the total absence of evidence to support the claim and the existence of good evidence to contradict it, the claim that Hamas is using Gazans as human shields is trotted out again and again. Sanity is the probably the worst offender in this regard, tho your posts have been not too far behind.

So produce some credible evidence from reputable independent sources to support your claims or stop making them or perhaps more accurately stop making them up.

* An Israeli court convicting two IDF soldiers for using a 9 year old Palestinian child as a human shield surely counts as irrefutable evidence the IDF members have used children as human shields.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/10/2014 2:20:35 AM >

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/10/2014 2:32:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
The UN acknowledged that Hamas was storing weapons in schools then attacked Israel for hitting the schools. They weren't hitting a school they were hitting a munitions depot.

This is pure invention embellishing a half truth.

The schools where the rockets were found by the UN - 3 in total - were disused, they were empty. The schools that the Israelis deliberately targetted and bombed were being used as refuges for people forced to leave their homes and suburbs by Israeli bombing. The Israelis were hitting a school full of civilians who fled their homes in terror and sought the protection of the UN. The Israelis were well aware of this having been given the co ordinates of the schools repeatedly - 17 times in the case of one attack. There were no rockets in the schools where civilians and UN staff were slaughtered in Israel's barbaric attacks.

You would know this had you bothered to read the UN press releases which I linked earlier in the thread. But rather than do a little bit of research so that you are acquainted with the facts, you chose to make up some self serving BS instead.

Not the first time pro-Zionists have resorted to invention and lies, now will it be the last. One wonders why they resort to lies and invention so often and so crassly. Isn't the truth sufficient to justify their cause? Obviously not.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/10/2014 2:56:18 AM >

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/10/2014 3:27:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom
You and your supporters ask for proof and evidence and when it's provided, do you refute it?

Are you living in an alternate universe? My posts and claims are always backed up by citations usually from respected independent international sources.

Pro-Zionist posts almost never produce supporting evidence or citations, and, on the odd occasion they do, rarely do they come from reputable or independent sources.

For instance, look at the claims and counter claims about the use of human shields by either side on this thread. Despite repeated allegations from pro-Zionist that Hamas is using human shields in Gaza, not a shred of independent evidence has been advance to support this claim. To the best of my memory, all the evidence cited in this thread has asserted the opposite - that there is no evidence that Hamas is using Gazans as human shields. A lot of credible evidence, (some of it irrefutable)* has been cited to prove the IDF used human shields regularly. Despite the total absence of evidence to support the claim and the existence of good evidence to contradict it, the claim that Hamas is using Gazans as human shields is trotted out again and again. Sanity is the probably the worst offender in this regard, tho your posts have been not too far behind.

So produce some credible evidence from reputable independent sources to support your claims or stop making them or perhaps more accurately stop making them up.

* An Israeli court convicting two IDF soldiers for using a 9 year old Palestinian child as a human shield surely counts as irrefutable evidence the IDF members have used children as human shields.

Reputable independent sources typically get their raw data from the Hamas Health Ministry or other propaganda arm. As my earlier BBC and NY Times posts indicate, these are hardly stellar sources. Now, there is no "better" raw data source, because only Hamas knows -- and, as further noted, reports of the dead typically conflate those killed by misfired Hamas mortars and rockets with those killed by Israeli ones. In a nutshell, I know with certainty that you would not trust a report out of North Korea claiming that malnourishment was at an all time low. Unfortunately, Kim Jong-un is all we've got. Do I regard Hamas as more trustworthy than Kim. Do I regard them to be as evil as Kim? No. In the same way the Mussolini was less evil in my estimation than Hitler. Mussolini still doesn't earn any gold stars and neither does Hamas, a fundamentalist Islamist political movement and military apparatus.

_____________________________

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.

- Nietzsche

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/10/2014 3:28:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom
You and your supporters ask for proof and evidence and when it's provided, do you refute it?

Are you living in an alternate universe? My posts and claims are always backed up by citations usually from respected independent international sources.

Pro-Zionist posts almost never produce supporting evidence or citations, and, on the odd occasion they do, rarely do they come from reputable or independent sources.

For instance, look at the claims and counter claims about the use of human shields by either side on this thread. Despite repeated allegations from pro-Zionist that Hamas is using human shields in Gaza, not a shred of independent evidence has been advance to support this claim. To the best of my memory, all the evidence cited in this thread has asserted the opposite - that there is no evidence that Hamas is using Gazans as human shields. A lot of credible evidence, (some of it irrefutable)* has been cited to prove the IDF used human shields regularly. Despite the total absence of evidence to support the claim and the existence of good evidence to contradict it, the claim that Hamas is using Gazans as human shields is trotted out again and again. Sanity is the probably the worst offender in this regard, tho your posts have been not too far behind.

So produce some credible evidence from reputable independent sources to support your claims or stop making them or perhaps more accurately stop making them up.

* An Israeli court convicting two IDF soldiers for using a 9 year old Palestinian child as a human shield surely counts as irrefutable evidence the IDF members have used children as human shields.

Reputable independent sources typically get their raw data from the Hamas Health Ministry or other propaganda arm. As my earlier BBC and NY Times posts indicate, these are hardly stellar sources. Now, there is no "better" raw data source, because only Hamas knows -- and, as further noted, reports of the dead typically conflate those killed by misfired Hamas mortars and rockets with those killed by Israeli ones. In a nutshell, I know with certainty that you would not trust a report out of North Korea claiming that malnourishment was at an all time low. Unfortunately, Kim Jong-un is all we've got. Do I regard Hamas as more trustworthy than Kim? No. Do I regard them to be as evil as Kim? No. In the same way the Mussolini was less evil in my estimation than Hitler. Mussolini still doesn't earn any gold stars and neither does Hamas, a fundamentalist Islamist political movement and military apparatus.

< Message edited by subrosaDom -- 8/10/2014 3:42:38 AM >

_____________________________

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.

- Nietzsche

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/10/2014 4:08:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Instead of looking at cartoons, try looking at something actually posted by an IDF soldier.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/18/israeli-soldier-posts-instagram-palestinian

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/10/2014 4:49:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom
Reputable independent sources typically get their raw data from the Hamas Health Ministry or other propaganda arm.

Do you have any evidence of this??
Because what I see from reporters on the ground (BBC, Sky, AFP, Reuters) they are getting their "raw data" from hospital surgeons, UN, and talking to people affected (Palestinian and Israeli civilians).

ETA: Everything from Israel's media is nothing more than propaganda. I don't see that as any different from what Hamas put out.
FWIW, I don't believe either side's PR spin and crap.
I would sooner believe what is being reported from the ground (on both sides) and from the UN.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom
As my earlier BBC and NY Times posts indicate, these are hardly stellar sources.

And as your links indicated, the BBC were questioning the NYT figures.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom
Now, there is no "better" raw data source, because only Hamas knows -- and, as further noted, reports of the dead typically conflate those killed by misfired Hamas mortars and rockets with those killed by Israeli ones.

And look at the numbers.
Israeli deaths: 67. Palestinian deaths: over 1,900.

Does it really matter how many are misfires?
From what I see in the news, there aren't many real 'misfires' as such, but more like the rockets not reaching their targets because of Iron Dome.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom
In a nutshell, I know with certainty that you would not trust a report out of North Korea claiming that malnourishment was at an all time low. Unfortunately, Kim Jong-un is all we've got. Do I regard Hamas as more trustworthy than Kim? No. Do I regard them to be as evil as Kim? No. In the same way the Mussolini was less evil in my estimation than Hitler. Mussolini still doesn't earn any gold stars and neither does Hamas, a fundamentalist Islamist political movement and military apparatus.

Irrelevant drivel trying to draw a comparison in a vain effort to validate your opinion.

Many people who live where there is no direct support for Israel (that would be anyone outside of the US) are claiming that Israel are committing atrocious murders under a very weak disguise of 'legitimately defending itself'. Even the UN are questioning Israel's claims. Also, most of the 'human shield' accusations from Israel have been debunked whereas Israel themselves, via their own judiciary, have prosecuted IDF soldiers for exactly the same offense.
There were a number of rallies in London yesterday and not one was in support of Israel. We don't like Hamas any more than anyone else; but what Israel is doing is murdering innocent civilians and in some cases (according to the UN and reporters on the ground), quite deliberately.

I often get stones, bricks, toys etc thrown over my garden fence by the neighbour's kids. One of those stones broke my 4ft fish tank. Another episode of them climbing the fence into my garden they broke my washing line and several other things. Their parents are obnoxious bastards who do nothing to reprimand them.
Even so, that doesn't give me carte-blanch authority to smash their windows, kill their other kids, and generally destroy their house.

That is just what is happening in Gaza.
So the stupid Hamas militants throw the odd rocket over the fence at Israel (because Israel is holding a total blockade on them) and almost all of them miss, do very little damage, and over the years have caused a few fatalities.
Israel respond with troops, tanks, missiles, bombs, artillery and air attacks and deliberately kill innocent civilians, destroy homes, schools, hospitals and other infrastructure under the guise of 'defense'.
Even the UN see this as overreacting and unnecessary.

The numbers alone tell the story.
The reporters on the ground are telling the same story.
The UN are telling the same story.
Even fuck-wit Hamas are telling the same story.
The only ones that don't agree are the Israeli press and the US.

Do you see the disconnect here??
Some people need to open their eyes a bit wider and recognize the truth of what is happening out there.

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 8/10/2014 5:28:17 AM >

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/10/2014 5:50:32 AM

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freedomdwarf1 Very well said.

Politesub53, very good come back re-cartoons. Shame i can't post mine now

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/12/2014 12:25:25 AM

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From: Sydney Australia
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Israeli attacks and bombardment of United Nations schools being used as refuge by terrified civilians drew worldwide condemnation. Drawing on a variety of sources - The New York Times, the Guardian's own correspondents on the ground in Gaza, the UN, the Gaza Ministry of Health and the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights - the Guardian has compiled a detailed study of these attacks. According to The Guardian:
"Six schools in all were hit. Hundreds of Palestinians at the schools were wounded and at least 47 were killed. A disproportionate number of those hurt were children or women."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/08/-sp-gaza-israeli-strikes-unrwa-schools

Health services also appear to have been targetted:
"Health provision in Gaza has been badly hit. Ten out of 26 hospitals – 40% of total beds – have been shut, officials said, and only a handful reopened."
Housing is now a major problem with estimates of homeless Gazans in the hundreds of thousands. For example:
"In Gaza City, which has a population of half a million, 20%-25% of the housing stock had been damaged, said Nihad al-Mughni of the engineering department. Mohammed al-Kafarna, the mayor of Beit Hanoun, a northern town which saw fierce fighting and heavy bombardment, said 70% of homes were uninhabitable. "Basically the town is unliveable. There is no power, water or communications. There are not the basics for life," he said. In Shawkat, a neighbourhood of Rafah city in the south which saw heavy fighting after an earlier ceasefire collapsed within hours, 300 out of 2,000 houses had been destroyed, along with the town hall."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/11/damage-gaza-homes-israel-hamas-conflict (please note this is a separate article to the one linked above )

It is likely that these attacks, especially those on hospitals and UNRWA schools will figure prominently in the UN investigation into war crimes committed during the current round of hostilities in Gaza. It is also likely that whatever the UN's findings are, they will attract controversy. Also, please keep in mind that while rockets have been found hidden in 3 disused UNRWA schools, none of those 3 schools is included in The Guardian's figures. To the best of my knowledge, none of those 3 schools was attacked at all.

To avoid adverse findings Israel will somehow have to make a case that all of the above damage to civilian infrastructure was a military necessity and that appropriate efforts were made to avoid civilian casualties. On the face of it, that seems a huge ask. So it might be an idea to get an accurate, detailed understanding of these events for future reference.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/12/2014 12:33:10 AM >

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(in reply to dreamysubmale)

RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/12/2014 3:29:50 AM

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

26 hospitals for a population of 1.5 million? I wish Chicago had that many facilities for the population. I wonder how many actually ever saw patients?
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183566#.U-nr5Jt0yB8

(in reply to tweakabelle)

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