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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 12/22/2014 8:10:37 PM   
SeekingTrinity


Posts: 1834
Joined: 5/29/2012
From: The 'burbs of Portland, OR
Status: offline 		~FRing it~

Pain is not defined as something that is enjoyed. It's a biochemical and physiological process at its most basic core. We all feel it to varying degrees. We just all deal with it differently. I think Arturas summed it up pretty well.

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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 12/22/2014 9:44:04 PM   
MsWickedPig


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From: City of Fallen Angels, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

~FRing it~

Pain is not defined as something that is enjoyed. It's a biochemical and physiological process at its most basic core. We all feel it to varying degrees. We just all deal with it differently. I think Arturas summed it up pretty well.


As I agree as well... I am a proud Sado-Masochist... I can recall when a particular Domme asked me how I felt about pain.. And without giving much thought into my response, I simply said that "I loved It." She then asked, "There are people that enjoy it, but for you to respond that you love it, now what I am to think of about you?"
And I simply stated(or something along the lines) that, "With every strike and sting, it opens up part of my body so that my soul can breathe."

I am very aware that there are varying degrees as to how people process pain.. But to insinuate that Masochists have some sort of nerve deficiency because their logic of how they process pain is not the same as yours, is highly offensive. And to claim that "scientifically".. by what and who's Science? I know that I might be speaking boldly, but OP, check yourself before you wreck yourself. You OBVIOUSLY don't have full comprehension of the "supporting evidence" that you are trying to use... And, I feel that you definitely should not be trusted as a Dom which exhibits himself the way that you do.
I know that previous posters have already covered areas that I don't need to.. But, I wanted to speak for myself.

_____________________________

"Now here you must leave all distrust behind; let all your cowardice die on this spot" -Dante
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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 12/22/2014 9:54:19 PM   
MsWickedPig


Posts: 25
Joined: 6/14/2014
From: City of Fallen Angels, CA
Status: offline 		And I forgot to second someone's reference along the lines of it being a different "sub-space", because it absolutely and completely is a completely different sub-space in which your mind is just reacting to quick fire synapses in the brain... I find it a little hard to explain, but for myself, if I'm in a position of being a pure masochistic entity, whatever tasks that I endure that require me to focus on the completion of the task, has my mind react in a different way that blanks out the pain, (with having trust) that my Domme will carry me along the way until we are both satisfied..

_____________________________

"Now here you must leave all distrust behind; let all your cowardice die on this spot" -Dante
~A student in the Rite of Life. One day, I will truly know the Virtues.- Respectfully, Wicked ~

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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 12/23/2014 4:39:13 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

Under certain circumstances, prolonged pain releases endorphins and creates a feeling of trance like euphoria... From my own experience I can say that the pain is still experienced as pain, but the physical reaction to it is different. In that euphoric state, even when you can't take the pain anymore, it's more like the reaction of being mercilessly tickled... It's an overload of sensation that is recognizable as pain, but not processed the same way.

I don't know if that makes any sense or not...


To me this makes perfect sense. I don't consider myself a masochist but I love having needles put into my back and I have, much to a few subs horror, swung from flesh hooks pierced through my skin. I honestly don't consider either of those things as BDSM because its not about enjoying pain, but controlling what would otherwise be painful into something else. Fakir did my first suspension and prior to him doing that, he taught me how to get into the right head space where I wouldn't feel pain. He says, "if you don't fear pain, you won't feel pain". The needles and the suspension are more of an act of courage for me; once in the right space, those needles feel as though they are caressing my skin and the endorphins from that head space make me trip without having to take a little blue pill to do so.

I had an operation on my face and asked the surgeon if I could remain awake without anaesthetic. He didn't allow me to do that and I'm sure he thought I was nuts. If I can be in control of what most people consider painful then I consider myself to have ultimate control over the living me...if that makes sense!


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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 12/23/2014 4:56:39 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsWickedPig
"With every strike and sting, it opens up part of my body so that my soul can breathe."



This jumped out at me and very much relates to the sadism in me.

When I inflict pain, I love to do it with someone who can do what you do when receiving pain. A female I regularly inflict pain on calls me her "gatekeeper". She journeys whilst receiving the "right" sort of pain and it honestly is an amazing experience to observe and be a part of. I feel as though I'm enabling, guiding and bringing her back from that journey when the times right.

I'm not into giving pain for pains sake because it has no meaning to me.


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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 12/23/2014 7:10:30 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

~FRing it~

Pain is not defined as something that is enjoyed. It's a biochemical and physiological process at its most basic core.


This is generally true... but the psychological aspect can make it a confusing concept. Removing the psychological aspect for a moment, pain is simply intense sensation.

Some unfortunate women find orgasm painful. If one can accept and understand that, then it becomes easier to imagine how pain can be found orgasmic.

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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 12/23/2014 8:14:10 AM   
FieryOpal


Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
...
A female I regularly inflict pain on calls me her "gatekeeper". She journeys whilst receiving the "right" sort of pain and it honestly is an amazing experience to observe and be a part of. I feel as though I'm enabling, guiding and bringing her back from that journey when the times right.

I'm not into giving pain for pains sake because it has no meaning to me.

See, this makes better sense to me how you are describing your role of power and control as a gatekeeper, in order for me to understand the dynamics at play with sado-masochism.
(As well as the desire to endure pain and get beyond it as a mind-over-matter type state)

When I asked OP why does he enjoy being sadistic, my question was sincere and not a retort. Because his concept of the house of pain he had envisioned in his profile did not sound like (sexual) sado-masochism to me, but more like straight-out sadism.
Not being sado-masochistic myself, none of this really makes a whole lot of sense to me, but masochism is at least explainable by the endorphin rush, blocking of pain receptors, going into subspace, etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

Some unfortunate women find orgasm painful. If one can accept and understand that, then it becomes easier to imagine how pain can be found orgasmic.

I've heard of this phenomenon, also, that somehow the localized sensation of orgasm becomes too intense for them to handle, and they are unable to get past it. I'm not sure if this condition is restricted to just females, but I've not yet heard of a male experiencing orgasmic dysfunction in that manner.

What clicks in my mind somewhat is the comparison between having an orgasm stimulated via erogenous zones and a full body orgasm. I personally cannot imagine how pain could ever be orgasmic, but I do know that certain forms of mildly painful sensations can enhance pleasurable ones. Btw, both my late husband and I have had full body "orgasms" before and they are nothing like sexually localized orgasms. In fact, those full body "orgasms" precluded the ability to reach orgasm by ordinary methods while they were being experienced.

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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 12/23/2014 9:28:44 AM   
SeekingTrinity


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From: The 'burbs of Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic


quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

~FRing it~

Pain is not defined as something that is enjoyed. It's a biochemical and physiological process at its most basic core.


This is generally true... but the psychological aspect can make it a confusing concept. Removing the psychological aspect for a moment, pain is simply intense sensation.

Some unfortunate women find orgasm painful. If one can accept and understand that, then it becomes easier to imagine how pain can be found orgasmic.


I actually didn't speak of psychology of pain though. That is a whole different subject entirely and highly personal to each of us. From a biological standpoint, pain is biochemical and physiological. What each of us does with what we feel...well, that's where psychology comes into play.

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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 12/28/2014 1:50:31 AM   
FieryOpal


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From: Maryland
Status: offline 		What you're asking is do masochists feel pain the way non-masochists do. HowTF would any of us (masos included) know this? Does a color-blind person know that he's color blind? Other than being told he keeps mixing up blues & greens or else pinks & oranges?

Now, I have heard a sub say she used to be a masochist, but isn't anymore. I don't know whether that means she's been desensitized or has gone numb (as in checks out or dissociates) during play, doesn't seek out painful sensations like she used to, has shifted over from physical masochism to emotional masochism and mindfucks, or what exactly this means. To make things more confusing, her long-time partner is still sadistic.

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Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 12/28/2014 5:47:51 AM   
orgasmdenial12


Posts: 613
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Status: offline 		You are mistakenly falling for the sociobiological ideology that every behaviour is a) genetic and b) has an evolutionary advantage.

There is no evidence whatsoever that genetics control our behaviour, personality, sexuality, etc. Since this behaviour is not controlled by genetics, it is not hereditary and it cannot be selected for at an evolutionary level. If it was as simple as gene = masochism = evolution then we would see masochism running clearly through subsets of the population, the same way that hair colour and appearance run in families. We do not see this, which is further evidence that masochism, whatever its causes, is not selected for at the gene level.

Secondly, as a masochist, pain feels the same to me as it does to anyone else. When masochists stub their toes, bite their tongues or get a cold, they react the same way as non-masochists. What's more, if we didn't feel pain as pain then we probably wouldn't be masochists. I can get pleasure feelings anywhere but I do pain play because it is painful. If being whipped felt the same as being kissed then I wouldn't bother with being whipped! It would be illogical to risk injury for a pleasure feeling that you could get in a non-risky way.

As regards sadism and evolution, the same scientific facts apply; there is no evidence that sadism is controlled by genetics or selected for on the evolutionary scale. However, even if it was possible to genetically cause and select for sadism, it is unlikely that sadists (in the psychopathic / Sadean sense) would be selected for as physical aggression is highly risky and only undertaken by most animals when they feel that they have no other options. This is why animals have developed a long list of display behaviour to settle disputes without risking physical aggression - such as barking, puffing up to look bigger, digging at the ground, marking territory, etc. Murdering other individuals where there is no reason is very, very rare in the animal kingdom even amongst primates. It is likely that such behaviour is more a product of human socialisation, than any natural or beneficial reason.

Finally, even if such an individual was successful at murdering other individuals, evolution would eventually select against them as humans are social animals and require the comfort and security of groups to live successfully. An individual that went around randomly murdering or torturing its fellow group members would very quickly find itself without a group, for one reason or another.

As regards the real reason for masochism - humans are incredibly sexually creative. We seem to delight in finding new ways to enjoy our sexual instinct, way beyond what any other animal will do. It is not sexual orientation that is imprinted in our genetics, it is a lack of sexual orientation and the freedom that gives us to explore is amazing. It is most likely a combination of pre-conscious experiences not long after birth and a certain amount of free will that dictates our sexualities. I know that I always found masochism appealing, but it has been my decision to explore and expand on that interest when I could have gone in different ways. I'm sure the same is true for most masochists and sadists.

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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 12/28/2014 5:36:48 PM   
Kelaina


Posts: 11
Joined: 12/28/2014
Status: offline 		Of COURSE we feel pain in the traditional sense, what kind of stupid question is that? Just because your body doesn't channel pain in such a way that it's ultimately considered pleasurable doesn't mean we don't feel pain.

There's a reason most maso sessions take such a long time; it takes a while for the brain to release endorphins, and pain DOES bring endorphins. Once, a friend carved a sacred named into my back. The cutting took almost an hour, and it wasn't until 45 minutes in that the endorphins finally kicked in and I started feeling good. (It's why I prefer hard, thuddy pain, like from a tawse or belt or ramrod.)

A serious pain session for me take a good couple hours, just so I can 'travel', as another person aptly put it.

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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 12/28/2014 5:47:16 PM   
LiveSpark


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Joined: 12/25/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kelaina

Of COURSE we feel pain in the traditional sense, what kind of stupid question is that? Just because your body doesn't channel pain in such a way that it's ultimately considered pleasurable doesn't mean we don't feel pain.

There's a reason most maso sessions take such a long time; it takes a while for the brain to release endorphins, and pain DOES bring endorphins. Once, a friend carved a sacred named into my back. The cutting took almost an hour, and it wasn't until 45 minutes in that the endorphins finally kicked in and I started feeling good. (It's why I prefer hard, thuddy pain, like from a tawse or belt or ramrod.)

A serious pain session for me take a good couple hours, just so I can 'travel', as another person aptly put it.


You know Kelaina just because you know that, and just because other masochists know it doesn't mean the OP does. They asked the question politely and non-judgmentally, why do you feel the need to be snarky? I'm seeing that in a lot of your posts, why? It seems to me to be more constructive to answer politely so you don't get their backs up.

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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 12/29/2014 11:51:02 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RockaRolla
I'll probably catch hell for saying something like this, but I'm not convinced that an MtF's orgasm post-op is identical to a biological female's orgasm. For one thing, not all women orgasm the same way. Some are wilder, some are softer, some rarely cum at all. And when you have a surgeon's knives messing around in that bundle of nerves, there's gotta be a change in sensitivity. So I wouldn't consider that proof of a difference between male and female orgasms, more like pre- and post-op orgasms.


Well I suppose they would have a better grasp than the rest of us about how hormone differences between the genders effect things but I agree with you that surgically altering male genitalia does not (at least at present) make it female genitalia. With organ printing on the horizon who knows what the future holds.

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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 12/30/2014 1:32:45 AM   
MsWickedPig


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From: City of Fallen Angels, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: RockaRolla
I'll probably catch hell for saying something like this, but I'm not convinced that an MtF's orgasm post-op is identical to a biological female's orgasm. For one thing, not all women orgasm the same way. Some are wilder, some are softer, some rarely cum at all. And when you have a surgeon's knives messing around in that bundle of nerves, there's gotta be a change in sensitivity. So I wouldn't consider that proof of a difference between male and female orgasms, more like pre- and post-op orgasms.


Well I suppose they would have a better grasp than the rest of us about how hormone differences between the genders effect things but I agree with you that surgically altering male genitalia does not (at least at present) make it female genitalia. With organ printing on the horizon who knows what the future holds.


Just to put my 4 cents in, it is biologically impossible for MtF to experience exactly what a ciFem orgasm is like. Plus, I do have a good TG/MtF friend, that has given me much enlightenment in regards to transitioning. If you put into perspective that, surgical, gender reassignment does not necessarily imply that, the MtF has made the complete transition in their mind from M to F. There are some that are more transitioned in their minds compared to some that have gone thru the procedure. So with that being brought to light, if the MtF doesn't have it in her mind, there's no way that she can achieve what ciFems can (especially because, I feel that our Orgasms have a lot of psychological levels intertwined with the physical.)

Also, regardless of the amount of hormones one can pump into themselves (I work directly with Hormone replacement therapies) , it in no way gives one the ability to unlock the gates to "OrgasmHaven" ;) That is a Multi-Million Dollar question that is fiercely trying to be answered ("Orgasm Inc." is a good doc to review). Just trying to

_____________________________

"Now here you must leave all distrust behind; let all your cowardice die on this spot" -Dante
~A student in the Rite of Life. One day, I will truly know the Virtues.- Respectfully, Wicked ~

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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 12/30/2014 7:09:24 PM   
Kelaina


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Joined: 12/28/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kelaina

Of COURSE we feel pain in the traditional sense, what kind of stupid question is that? Just because your body doesn't channel pain in such a way that it's ultimately considered pleasurable doesn't mean we don't feel pain.

There's a reason most maso sessions take such a long time; it takes a while for the brain to release endorphins, and pain DOES bring endorphins. Once, a friend carved a sacred named into my back. The cutting took almost an hour, and it wasn't until 45 minutes in that the endorphins finally kicked in and I started feeling good. (It's why I prefer hard, thuddy pain, like from a tawse or belt or ramrod.)

A serious pain session for me take a good couple hours, just so I can 'travel', as another person aptly put it.


You know Kelaina just because you know that, and just because other masochists know it doesn't mean the OP does. They asked the question politely and non-judgmentally, why do you feel the need to be snarky? I'm seeing that in a lot of your posts, why? It seems to me to be more constructive to answer politely so you don't get their backs up.


I'm snarky when people ask stupid questions. Plus, let's be blunt: the OP has a track record for behaving idiotically. I don't sugar coat anything.

Yes, I don't have to answer the question, but I want to. I have no patience with fools; I think I've made that pretty clear.

"Ask a stupid question, get a snarky answer."

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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 12/30/2014 7:26:08 PM   
LiveSpark


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/25/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kelaina


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kelaina

Of COURSE we feel pain in the traditional sense, what kind of stupid question is that? Just because your body doesn't channel pain in such a way that it's ultimately considered pleasurable doesn't mean we don't feel pain.

There's a reason most maso sessions take such a long time; it takes a while for the brain to release endorphins, and pain DOES bring endorphins. Once, a friend carved a sacred named into my back. The cutting took almost an hour, and it wasn't until 45 minutes in that the endorphins finally kicked in and I started feeling good. (It's why I prefer hard, thuddy pain, like from a tawse or belt or ramrod.)

A serious pain session for me take a good couple hours, just so I can 'travel', as another person aptly put it.


You know Kelaina just because you know that, and just because other masochists know it doesn't mean the OP does. They asked the question politely and non-judgmentally, why do you feel the need to be snarky? I'm seeing that in a lot of your posts, why? It seems to me to be more constructive to answer politely so you don't get their backs up.


I'm snarky when people ask stupid questions. Plus, let's be blunt: the OP has a track record for behaving idiotically. I don't sugar coat anything.

Yes, I don't have to answer the question, but I want to. I have no patience with fools; I think I've made that pretty clear.

"Ask a stupid question, get a snarky answer."



I only mentioned this because I've seen pretty much nothing but snark in the short time you've been here. Your choice of course but don't be surprised if people get fed up and start ignoring you. I'm also not the only one who has called you on this but again your choice, this is how you want to post rock on.

_____________________________

I've been here as MontrealPhoenix, zephyr and
TheFireWithinMe.

I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

If you fall I'll always be there to catch you ~ Floor

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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 1/4/2015 2:16:04 PM   
preytolife


Posts: 138
Joined: 11/29/2010
From: LaLa Land
Status: offline 		I think the pain is the same for masochists as for anyone else, what's different is the mindset, the desire to reach catharsis in some cases, and a determination to experience. Bad pain is still bad pain, and it still fucking hurts if you're a masochist. But good pain, the kind you want that can do some amazing things.

I'm both a sadist and a masochist and I'm not sure about anyone else but I've always said that "liking pain" is kind of a misleading phrase. It's the things that go with pain that I enjoy, the connection with my partners, the reactions, feeling triumphant that I have taken everything I can and I'm still okay. Finding the floaty happy space and that feeling of crying and being allowed to cry.

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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 1/10/2015 12:34:51 AM   
BecomingV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kelaina

Of COURSE we feel pain in the traditional sense, what kind of stupid question is that?


There are no stupid questions except those you don't know the answer to and still don't ask.

I think it's terrible when we run across an adult who was so mistreated as a child that they carry the notion that asking a question... politely and respectfully and with an open mind, is something to criticize. How scary it must be to have been silenced so severely. Feel free to ask anything! :)

OP - NLP is based on the science of change. In a nutshell, the belief is that we all move towards pleasure and away from pain. So, I understand your OP question to mean, "Is pain really experienced as pleasure, to a masochist?" IF they are wired differently and are actually experiencing pleasure, then they are like the rest of us who seek out pleasure. But, if they aren't wired differently, then why do they seek pain while the rest of humanity seeks pleasure and avoids pain? I'll take a stab at it.

I'm a straight female switch with a dominant personality. Your OP connects switching with S/m and this is inaccurate. These are different dynamics and concepts altogether. You are asking for feedback from masochistic bottoms. Whether they are Dominants or submissives is additional information unrelated to impact play. What is being "switched" is control. Control is not topping or sadism, although some D/s types use S/m as an expression of control. You can be a Dominant masochistic bottom or a sadistic submissive Top. Your OP confuses the terms and dynamics.

I'm extremely good at mind control. Early on, in my submissive days, I wanted to explore masochism but found that my ability to control myself was too strong. Damage and torture would have to be done to me for any pain to be felt.

I just wrote that sentence and realized it was wrong. When I say "Pain" I mean something I feel an urge to avoid. I did feel pain but was out of touch with how damaged my body had become. For reference, I heal quickly, but one time it took almost 10 weeks for bruising to heal and I did have scars. No endorphins, though. It was the sadist who stopped the session.

G. Gordon Liddy, a Watergate times guy, held his hand over a flame and sizzled his palm saying, "The trick isn't to not feel pain - it's to not mind it." I find myself in that space.

So, for those reasons:

1) I don't realize how hard I'm being hit

2) It appears permanent damage is required for me to get near endorphin release

I no longer seek masochistic exploration. Was I a masochist but with too high a pain tolerance just can't "go there"? Am I simply not a masochist, but rather someone who is open to experiences and challenging myself? I don't know.

As a young athlete, I got past my own limits as a matter of habit and if doing that meant enduring some pain, then I just did. I use that same discipline with mental tasks. If I "feel" bad, so what? Pay it no mind - do it anyway.

Maybe masochists reading this will be able to comment on the mindset involved. I'm curious if they think that this affected my foray into masochism.

< Message edited by BecomingV -- 1/10/2015 1:07:08 AM >

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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 1/10/2015 5:26:07 AM   
questioningdream


Posts: 17
Joined: 1/9/2015
Status: offline 		As a masochist, I find that while I do feel pain in the traditional sense, I associate it more often with pleasure than with negative experiences. This, of course, depends on the context. If I am getting flogged or spanked, then naturally I will be in a different mindset than if I stub my toe, trip over or do some other clumsy accident that results in pain. The pain nerves do not change depending on what situation they are in. While there are pain disorders out there, to associate them all with masochists would be quite the rare correlation! Instead it seems to be situational/context-driven. I have a higher pain tolerance and take enjoyment/pleasure from it in the context of BDSM, than I do out of it.

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RE: Do masochists feel pain in the traditional sense? - 1/12/2015 7:41:19 AM   
needlesandpins


Posts: 3901
Status: offline 		I feel pain just like anyone else. it just so happens that I have a very high pain threshold. it also happens that in some circumstances I happen to get a real kick out of having pain inflicted on me. when I was 13 I started suffering a pain that dropped me on the floor the first time it happened. I then suffered that pain every day for the next 7 years. when I was having my son I was hooked up to a monitor because there were complications. the midwife kept looking at the print out, and then at me. she checked my chart, and asked if anyone had given me pain meds. I said no, so she asked if I was feeling my contractions. she looked concerned, so I asked her what the problem was. she explained that the read out showed that my contraction were so strong that I should have been asking for some pain relief, but instead I was sat there showing no signs of them what-so-ever. no sweat, no raised heart beat, no panting, nothing. I explained that I was feeling them, but that this was the pain that I had been feel everyday since I was 13. she told me I really ought to see a Dr. I told her I had, but that I had been ignored. 'Let me guess' says she 'You have a male Dr?' 'Yes, he told me it was all in my head'.

it annoys me when I'm asked to list my pain on a scale of 1-10. my level 5 may well exceed someone else's level 10. however, I don't think that has any reflection on what I can take when I'm in a sexual situation. as others have said, I also have to have the pain level built up over a bit of time at least. the pain that I can take also depends on the person doing the administering. I could take far more from my ex playmate than I could from my ex partner. my body reacted differently to each person.

me being a switch has no baring at all though on being a maso, or how I feel pain.

needles

_____________________________

I deserved better. Not than you, but from you.

(in reply to questioningdream)
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