Collarchat.com

Join Our Community
Collarchat.com

Home  Login  Search 

RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association Page: <<   < prev  14 15 [16] 17 18   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 2:57:59 AM   
Cinnamongirl67


Posts: 854
Status: offline
I do not believe in late term abortions ( only in the rarest of circumstance) I do believe it is murder. How completely irresponsible and careless. It makes me feel sick. The absolute majority of women who have these abortions know they are pregnant earlier.
However, I do believe in the "morning after pill" and early term abortion (under 10 weeks)
With all the birth control options we have in the USA, let's face it, if your a woman who has not been raped, or had some other circumstance beyond your control, it comes down to irresponsibility.
I am a Christian, but I am not a mainstream Christian. I would not be a radical outside a clinic holding signs to pass judgement. Honestly these self righteous people have no idea the circumstance of the individuals going into these clinics. As you can see though, I do have strong opinions regarding the cut off time as to a time limit.
These people don't have to carry the baby, raise it, deal with the enormous responsibility of being a parent.
Maybe they should go home and take their child or grand any fishing, or read to them instead of raising hell to people who many are going through hell anyway.
I also would like to add, these radicals tend to change their mind when that situation knocks on their own families door. I've seen it happen.
Am I right? Am I wrong? I'm not absolute but not all Christians are of the same cloth. Some may even say my opinion is not Christian but I am not influenced by that.


_____________________________

Balanced Chakra
http://youtu.be/Gl9AGlbe3YU

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 301
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 6:35:41 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Racism is racism no matter how you slice it.

Obviously, you either don't believe that, or you don't know what racism is.

Jesus on a bicycle, DS, any form of racism dehumanizes one group of individuals by another who think they are superior. American history is forever stained by the continuation of institutional racism and by those individuals who make lame excuses for it because they carry it in their hearts for one distorted philosophy or another. "Blacks are mentally inferior." "Blacks are just too lazy to pull themselves up." "Blacks would rather live off welfare than work." "Black quarterbacks and coaches are not smart enough for the NFL" "Blacks were happy in their slavery in the benevolent old Southland" "The South fought the war between the states for states rights not to keep slavery." yatta, yatta, on it goes. Dumb, bigoted, dumb, bigoted, dumb.
Please, don't tell me what I believe or don't believe; nor what I know or don't know. That kind of remark makes you look silly.


I will continue as long as you continue to support remedying past racism with future racism. If racism is bad, how can more make things better?

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 302
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 6:52:53 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cinnamongirl67

I do not believe in late term abortions ( only in the rarest of circumstance) I do believe it is murder. How completely irresponsible and careless. It makes me feel sick. The absolute majority of women who have these abortions know they are pregnant earlier.
However, I do believe in the "morning after pill" and early term abortion (under 10 weeks)
With all the birth control options we have in the USA, let's face it, if your a woman who has not been raped, or had some other circumstance beyond your control, it comes down to irresponsibility.
I am a Christian, but I am not a mainstream Christian. I would not be a radical outside a clinic holding signs to pass judgement. Honestly these self righteous people have no idea the circumstance of the individuals going into these clinics. As you can see though, I do have strong opinions regarding the cut off time as to a time limit.
These people don't have to carry the baby, raise it, deal with the enormous responsibility of being a parent.
Maybe they should go home and take their child or grand any fishing, or read to them instead of raising hell to people who many are going through hell anyway.
I also would like to add, these radicals tend to change their mind when that situation knocks on their own families door. I've seen it happen.
Am I right? Am I wrong? I'm not absolute but not all Christians are of the same cloth. Some may even say my opinion is not Christian but I am not influenced by that.



I dont like late term abortions either, but I know it can and does happen on a very rare basis, usually because of the health of the mother, or a fetal issue. And its usually tragic, not irresponsibility.
I went to school with a girl who gave birth in the school toilets, she was 13. She didnt know she was pregnant, the baby was preemie and died (back in 76, they didnt have the technology we do today.) They arrested her uncle for incest. The last time I heard from her, her mother still blames her for "killing" her baby.
As Ive mentioned before, I dont hate christians, I merely believe that my or any womans body belongs to her, and is her decision.
Im not going to live her life.
You seem reasonable to me. for what thats worth...
I may not agree with you 100% but i can understand your opinion.




_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to Cinnamongirl67)
Profile   Post #: 303
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 6:54:10 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
@DS
quote:

There were gays in the military. They weren't "out," but they were still in it. But, "forced integration" of the military would have been forcing gays to join against their wills.
Plessy v. Ferguson being overturned wasn't "forcing integration." It was removing forced segregation.
Why can't you see the difference?

Your definition of forced integration of gays in the military is hilarious. Sorry.
The military was forced to accept (integrate) the gays who were in and who wished to join. When I was drafted they actually asked us if we were homosexual. The military was forced to de facto integrate gays who were serving. I don't know if there was a law or regulation against being gay or doing sodomy.


If they were serving, how were they not in the military?!?

Even going by your errant viewpoint, removing forced segregation isn't the same as forcing integration. If anything, it's forcing equality, which I support.

quote:

Brown vs Board was based on the 14th Amendment right to equal protection under the Law. Separation was inherently unequal.
"Today, education is perhaps the most important function of state and local governments. Compulsory school attendance laws and the great expenditures for education both demonstrate our recognition of the importance of education to our democratic society. It is required in the performance of our most basic public responsibilities, even service in the armed forces. It is the very foundation of good citizenship. Today it is a principal instrument in awakening the child to cultural values, in preparing him for later professional training, and in helping him to adjust normally to his environment. In these days, it is doubtful that any child may reasonably be expected to succeed in life if he is denied the opportunity of an education. Such an opportunity, where the state has undertaken to provide it, is a right which must be made available to all on equal terms."
Granted the Court did not have armed troops to enforce its will but they seemed pretty damned insistent to me.


Good Lord, man! Brown v. Board declared forced segregation in schooling unConstitutional. I completely agree with that. Taking kids from the same area and segregating them by skin color/race is horrible. I know you agree with me on that. But, taking kids from different areas and forcing them to attend school to achieve some sort of racial integration is just as unConstitutional, imo.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
@DS
quote:

You bitched about TPS students having less spent on them than others, yet you don't know what Miami-Dade Co. spends on their students?!? WTF?
Miami-Dade Co. Schools spent $8512/pupil in 2012.
In comparison to Lucas Co School Districts, That puts them $448/pupil LESS than the lowest spending public school district in Lucas County. And you were bitching about Toledo being second highest?!? LMMFAO!!!

89% per student for Dade; 56.1% for Toledo Efficiency vs money down the toilet.
quote:

Does Dade Co. only have one School District? Lucas Co. has 9 public school districts.

A civic sham to avoid desegregation in Toledo.


LMMFAO!!! Going off those rails again, eh?

"Local" high schools are the way it is in Lucas County. You don't have to like it. You're just going to have to accept it.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 304
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 7:03:44 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler
I believe in Libretarian Socialist Capitalism. I believe second and third trimester abortions to be too far into term. I believe that even if abortion is legal, it should be a last resort. I believe mothers selling fetal tissue is amoral. I believe clinics encouraging abortion to sell tissue is wrong. I believe in stem cell research; my family has donated stem cell tissue without an abortion
More importantly, I believe we should be having this discussion. I'm not saying pro-life or pro-choice is right. I'm drawn by both sides of the argument. However, making abortions illegal is asserting certain people's views on others. I'm not saying asserting your views is wrong either; its a huge basis for democracy. But making abortion illegal is forcing others to follow the physical guidelines of certain people's beliefs.
Does that make sense? It's a complex issue which I have been torn on


This is something we agree on.

While I believe abortion is wrong, I do not believe I have the right to make that decision for someone else. Until it's clearly defined that a fetus is conferred humanity at conception, there will always be a time when an abortion is not considered murder by at least one side. Until there is a clear statement as to when a fetus becomes a human, there will always be an argument over when an abortion is or isn't murder. And, after there is a clear statement as to when a fetus becomes a human, we'll have arguments over that statement. lol


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DominantWrestler)
Profile   Post #: 305
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 7:16:44 AM   
Cinnamongirl67


Posts: 854
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cinnamongirl67

I do not believe in late term abortions ( only in the rarest of circumstance) I do believe it is murder. How completely irresponsible and careless. It makes me feel sick. The absolute majority of women who have these abortions know they are pregnant earlier.
However, I do believe in the "morning after pill" and early term abortion (under 10 weeks)
With all the birth control options we have in the USA, let's face it, if your a woman who has not been raped, or had some other circumstance beyond your control, it comes down to irresponsibility.
I am a Christian, but I am not a mainstream Christian. I would not be a radical outside a clinic holding signs to pass judgement. Honestly these self righteous people have no idea the circumstance of the individuals going into these clinics. As you can see though, I do have strong opinions regarding the cut off time as to a time limit.
These people don't have to carry the baby, raise it, deal with the enormous responsibility of being a parent.
Maybe they should go home and take their child or grand any fishing, or read to them instead of raising hell to people who many are going through hell anyway.
I also would like to add, these radicals tend to change their mind when that situation knocks on their own families door. I've seen it happen.
Am I right? Am I wrong? I'm not absolute but not all Christians are of the same cloth. Some may even say my opinion is not Christian but I am not influenced by that.



I dont like late term abortions either, but I know it can and does happen on a very rare basis, usually because of the health of the mother, or a fetal issue. And its usually tragic, not irresponsibility.
I went to school with a girl who gave birth in the school toilets, she was 13. She didnt know she was pregnant, the baby was preemie and died (back in 76, they didnt have the technology we do today.) They arrested her uncle for incest. The last time I heard from her, her mother still blames her for "killing" her baby.
As Ive mentioned before, I dont hate christians, I merely believe that my or any womans body belongs to her, and is her decision.
Im not going to live her life.
You seem reasonable to me. for what thats worth...
I may not agree with you 100% but i can understand your opinion.




The story you tell is where generalizations never work. No story is the same for people.
So sorry for your friend, not only for what happened to her as a child but also for having such a mother.
To you Lucy.


_____________________________

Balanced Chakra
http://youtu.be/Gl9AGlbe3YU

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 306
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 7:25:29 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
In fact, I would state exactly the contrary point. We have carved out an exception for murder by abortion - forcing the beliefs of those that are pro-abortion on others.

that boldened part is what ive been saying/trying to get across to the guy from the beginning when I asked him to consider the argument from the perspective of the baby.
but I think you've done a better job of articulating it.


I disagree. Preventing someone from making a choice on their own volition because of a belief, is imposing that belief on them. If you believe drugs are bad and should be illegal, means you want to impose your belief on someone else. Legalizing abortion or drugs isn't imposing beliefs on anyone. It doesn't mean you have to do something you disagree with. It only means that others than don't agree with you can make their own decisions the same way you can.

The murder/not murder part of this won't ever really be settled, imo. It seems as if the SCOTUS has ruled that, in almost all cases, human rights are conferred at the second trimester (most abortions are illegal after the first trimester). Unless that changes, abortions will not be murder in the first trimester. Barring someone from choosing to abort a fetus in the first trimester would be infringing on that woman's liberty, while allowing her to choose does not infringe on anyone else's rights.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 307
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 7:57:58 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
...Nor shall any man's entreaty prevail upon me to administer poison to anyone; neither will I counsel any man to do so. Moreover, I will give no sort of medicine to any pregnant woman, with a view to destroy the child.

Interesting that bolded part doesn't appear in either of the Hippocratic Oaths that I found; not the old one or the newer one used today.
However, the one quoted appears to have been taken from Wiki and quoted as "the original one written in Greek", which of course has no relevance in today's field of medicine and as such is a Non sequitur for this discussion.

Older version (1948, World Medical Association)
...I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

The newer version (1964, Louis Lasagna, Academic Dean of the School of Medicine at Tufts University) does not even mention pregnant women at all.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
The hippocratic oath is one of the oldest writings we have.

It included the phrase not to administer something to harm the chlld. This prohibition was part of the AMA's hippocratic oath until 1976, as I recall, ie., for the vast majority of the practise of western medicine.

Not true.
The 'old' version superseded most oaths in 1948.
It was again superseded in 1954.
The 'newer' version from 1964 appears to be the most prevalent one in use today.


_____________________________

If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 308
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 10:52:09 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
...Nor shall any man's entreaty prevail upon me to administer poison to anyone; neither will I counsel any man to do so. Moreover, I will give no sort of medicine to any pregnant woman, with a view to destroy the child.

Interesting that bolded part doesn't appear in either of the Hippocratic Oaths that I found; not the old one or the newer one used today.
However, the one quoted appears to have been taken from Wiki and quoted as "the original one written in Greek", which of course has no relevance in today's field of medicine and as such is a Non sequitur for this discussion.

Older version (1948, World Medical Association)
...I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

The newer version (1964, Louis Lasagna, Academic Dean of the School of Medicine at Tufts University) does not even mention pregnant women at all.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
The hippocratic oath is one of the oldest writings we have.

It included the phrase not to administer something to harm the chlld. This prohibition was part of the AMA's hippocratic oath until 1976, as I recall, ie., for the vast majority of the practise of western medicine.

Not true.
The 'old' version superseded most oaths in 1948.
It was again superseded in 1954.
The 'newer' version from 1964 appears to be the most prevalent one in use today.



If you're quibbling about the date of the change, fine, I have no quarrel. I remember that having a discussion about it as the AMA changed its accepted oath; I remember it being around 76, but if it was somewhat earlier or later I don't think its germane to the point.

As for you not being able to find it - its amazing how if you actually look you will actually find. Top 4 google results:

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/greek/greek_oath.html
http://www.greekmedicine.net/whos_who/The_Hippocratic_Oath.html
https://owlspace-ccm.rice.edu/access/content/user/ecy1/Nazi%20Human%20Experimentation/Pages/Hippocratic%20Oath-classic.html
http://www.plant-medicine.com/community/learning/greeks/hippocratic_oath.htm

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 309
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 2:11:32 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
In fact, I would state exactly the contrary point. We have carved out an exception for murder by abortion - forcing the beliefs of those that are pro-abortion on others.

that boldened part is what ive been saying/trying to get across to the guy from the beginning when I asked him to consider the argument from the perspective of the baby.
but I think you've done a better job of articulating it.


I disagree. Preventing someone from making a choice on their own volition because of a belief, is imposing that belief on them. If you believe drugs are bad and should be illegal, means you want to impose your belief on someone else. Legalizing abortion or drugs isn't imposing beliefs on anyone. It doesn't mean you have to do something you disagree with. It only means that others than don't agree with you can make their own decisions the same way you can.

The murder/not murder part of this won't ever really be settled, imo. It seems as if the SCOTUS has ruled that, in almost all cases, human rights are conferred at the second trimester (most abortions are illegal after the first trimester). Unless that changes, abortions will not be murder in the first trimester. Barring someone from choosing to abort a fetus in the first trimester would be infringing on that woman's liberty, while allowing her to choose does not infringe on anyone else's rights.



its not imposing the belief; its imposing an action (or in this case, the forbidding of an action) that flows from the belief. that seems like im splitting hairs, but its an important distinction.

as some of us keep bringing up, all laws are more or less that.

lets say I believe its okay to take other people's stuff and. people who think thievery is wrong are forcing me by penalty of law to abide by their will. it would be absurd and laughable if i complained about that.

if abortions are made illegal, the people who were doing the abortions and getting the abortions themselves can continue to believe its not murder, or that its not a baby, or that the law is wrong, as they wish.

in the meantime, with roe v wade, "the belief" that it was okay for a mother to kill her unborn baby was foisted on the baby.

when there are competing interests---those of the would-be aborter, and those of the baby, who suffers the most harm if the law goes either way? the woman who would have the baby, or the baby who is killed?

why should the law protect the mothers "right" to kill over the baby's right to life? who is innocent in this equation? and is not government force or interference justified, from the libertarian perspective, when its used to protect the innocent from direct harm of others' predations?

and if there is anything "unknown" in the matter, or varying opinions about the issue, why shouldnt the decision side with the baby, who, if he had a voice in the matter, would choose life.

the pro-life libertarian position summed up:

quote:

To explain and defend our case, LFL argues that:

1. Human offspring are human beings, persons from conception, whether that takes place as natural or artificial fertilization, by cloning, or by any other means.

2. Abortion is homicide -- the killing of one person by another.

3. One's right to control one's own body does not allow violating the obligation not to aggress. There is never a right to kill an innocent person. Prenatally, we are all innocent persons.

4. A prenatal child has the right to be in the mother's body. Parents have no right to evict their children from the crib or from the womb and let them die. Instead both parents, the father as well as the mother, owe them support and protection from harm.

5. No government, nor any individual, has a just power to legally "de-person" any one of us, born or preborn.

6. The proper purpose of the law is to side with the innocent, not against them.


http://www.l4l.org/


< Message edited by bounty44 -- 2/8/2016 2:13:16 PM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 310
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 2:43:19 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
I dont like late term abortions either, but I know it can and does happen on a very rare basis, usually because of the health of the mother, or a fetal issue. And its usually tragic, not irresponsibility.


"Most Women Get Late-Term Abortions for Birth Control Reasons"

quote:


Washington, DC (LiveActionNews) — Abortions after 20 weeks have been banned in Texas. We are now hearing the familiar argument that all late-term abortions are done because there is a serious health risk for the mother or a major disease or deformity of the baby.

Some time ago, Abby Johnson, former clinic director in the largest Planned Parenthood clinic in Texas, addressed this issue by saying:

… it is false to say the women who choose late-term abortion do so because of medical reasons. We referred hundreds of women to abort their babies after 24 weeks…not one was for medical reasons

In 2003, Katha Pollitt, who is pro-choice, wrote an article for The Nation discussing late-term abortion. She gave the three most common reasons why women had these abortions (1):

71% didn’t realize they was pregnant
48% had difficulty making arrangements
33% were afraid of telling parents or partner

A study in 2006 in Perspectives of Sexual and Reproductive Health, a publication of the Alan Guttmacher institute, which has been affiliated with Planned Parenthood throughout its history, conducted a study of hundreds of women who had second-trimester abortions (the second trimester ends at 27 weeks). It came up with the following results:

68% had no pregnancy symptoms
58% Didn’t confirm the pregnancy until the second trimester
45% had trouble finding abortion provider
37% unsure of date of last menstrual period
30% had difficulty deciding on abortion

Believe it or not, the study sample did not contain a single case of abortion for health reasons.


http://www.lifenews.com/2013/07/15/most-women-get-late-term-abortions-for-birth-control-reasons/

"Is Late-Term Abortion Ever Necessary?"

quote:

T. Murphy Goodwin, M.D., a distinguished professor of maternal-fetal medicine at the University of Southern California, has written an eloquent article describing how women are told they need abortions for their own health, when this is patently untrue.10 A major reason for unnecessary abortion referrals is ignorance, to put it bluntly, especially on the part of physicians in medical specialties inexperienced in treating women with high-risk pregnancies. According to Goodwin, there are only three very rare conditions that result in a maternal mortality greater than 20% in the setting of late pregnancy.11 Even in these three situations there is room for latitude in waiting for fetal viability if the mother chooses to accept that risk.

Goodwin’s essay presents several cases in which pregnant women with cardiac conditions, cancer, or severe renal and autoimmune disease have been told categorically that they “needed” an abortion for their health or to save their life. But in every case the women were given wrong diagnoses, or incomplete information, and not offered any alternatives other than abortion.

although serious threats to health can occur, there is always a life-affirming way to care for mother and baby, no matter how bleak the prognosis. The elimination of late-term abortion would not create a void in medical care, but would instead result in a more humane world in which vulnerable humans would be treated with the dignity and respect that they deserve.


"most late term abortions are not for medical reasons"

quote:

In a house editorial about an Arizona law that restricts abortions after 18 weeks, the editors of the New York Times assert that “the overwhelming number of abortions occur well before 20 weeks; later abortions mostly often involve severely troubled pregnancies that pose risks to a woman’s health or life.”

This allegation that abortions after 20 weeks are mostly performed for medical reasons has long been discredited by the public disclosures of abortion providers. The salient facts are documented in Just Facts’ research on partial-birth abortion and are summarized below.

before being banned in 2003, the partial-birth procedure was a preferred method for performing abortions after 20 weeks (see picture on right at this stage of pregnancy). This procedure gained prominence in the early 1990s through Dr. Martin Haskell, who is credited with inventing it. In a 1993 interview with American Medical News, Haskell said:

I’ll be quite frank: most of my abortions are elective in that 20-24 week range…. In my particular case, probably 20% are for genetic reasons. And the other 80% are purely elective….

After this statement was published in a U.S. Congressional report, proponents of legalized abortion adamantly contested it:

• The American Civil Liberties Union, National Organization for Women, People For the American Way, and 50 other organizations sent a joint letter to Congress stating that partial-birth abortions were “most often performed” in cases “of severe fetal anomalies or a medical condition that threatens the pregnant woman’s life or health.”

• Planned Parenthood issued a press release asserting that partial-birth abortions are performed “only in cases when the woman’s life is in danger or in cases of extreme fetal abnormality.”

• The executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers appeared on ABC’s Nightline and stated that partial-birth abortions were done only in extreme situations of danger to a woman’s life and fetal anomalies.

Within the next year and half, the claims above were bluntly discredited by abortion providers:

• Ronald Fitzsimmons, the executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, told the New York Times and American Medical News that he “lied through [his] teeth” when he appeared on Nightline because he was afraid that the truth would erode public support for abortion. Disowning his previous statements, he stated that partial-birth abortions are “primarily done on healthy women and healthy fetuses….”

• Two doctors at a New Jersey abortion clinic spoke with a North Jersey newspaper under condition of anonymity. Both independently stated that their clinic was performing roughly 1,500 partial-birth abortions per year, most of which are elective and not for medical reasons.

• Renee Chelian, president of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers confessed:

The spin out of Washington was that it was only done for medical necessity, even though we knew it wasn’t so. I kept waiting for [the National Abortion Federation] to clarify it and they never did. I got caught up: What do we do about this secret? Who do we tell and what happens when we tell? But frankly, no one was asking me, so I didn’t have to worry.


http://www.justfactsdaily.com/most-late-term-abortions-are-not-for-medical-reasons/

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 311
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 2:47:24 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
Ja, no actual medical experts there.

Who would I rather believe, a woman that has familiarity with this, or a nutsucker who has proven repeatedly that he felches slobbering nutsucker blogs?

I will go with the actual people familiar with ths.



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 312
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 3:51:19 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
its not imposing the belief; its imposing an action (or in this case, the forbidding of an action) that flows from the belief. that seems like im splitting hairs, but its an important distinction.
as some of us keep bringing up, all laws are more or less that.
lets say I believe its okay to take other people's stuff and. people who think thievery is wrong are forcing me by penalty of law to abide by their will. it would be absurd and laughable if i complained about that.
if abortions are made illegal, the people who were doing the abortions and getting the abortions themselves can continue to believe its not murder, or that its not a baby, or that the law is wrong, as they wish.
in the meantime, with roe v wade, "the belief" that it was okay for a mother to kill her unborn baby was foisted on the baby.
when there are competing interests---those of the would-be aborter, and those of the baby, who suffers the most harm if the law goes either way? the woman who would have the baby, or the baby who is killed?
why should the law protect the mothers "right" to kill over the baby's right to life? who is innocent in this equation? and is not government force or interference justified, from the libertarian perspective, when its used to protect the innocent from direct harm of others' predations?
and if there is anything "unknown" in the matter, or varying opinions about the issue, why shouldnt the decision side with the baby, who, if he had a voice in the matter, would choose life.


The fetus has not been conferred humanity, thus, it can't have any inalienable rights. It can't have a right to life, as it were. Until that fetus has been granted humanity and human rights, it's not murder to extinguish it.

quote:

the pro-life libertarian position summed up:
quote:

To explain and defend our case, LFL argues that:
1. Human offspring are human beings, persons from conception, whether that takes place as natural or artificial fertilization, by cloning, or by any other means.
2. Abortion is homicide -- the killing of one person by another.
3. One's right to control one's own body does not allow violating the obligation not to aggress. There is never a right to kill an innocent person. Prenatally, we are all innocent persons.
4. A prenatal child has the right to be in the mother's body. Parents have no right to evict their children from the crib or from the womb and let them die. Instead both parents, the father as well as the mother, owe them support and protection from harm.
5. No government, nor any individual, has a just power to legally "de-person" any one of us, born or preborn.
6. The proper purpose of the law is to side with the innocent, not against them.

http://www.l4l.org/


There are lots of beliefs in there. The biggest one (for this discussion, though this was a teacher/union thread) is that we are all innocent persons prenatally. How do they get the idea that a one minute post-conception zygote is an innocent person? It's not even that. If a woman does something that results in a miscarriage, whether she knows or doesn't know she's pregnant, she's now just committed homicide. Would it be negligence if a pregnant mother (if she didn't know she was pregnant) had a cigarette or got drunk there were birth defects as a result? If the father and the pregnant mother get into a heated argument and the stress causes her to miscarry, did he commit homicide?

Currently, it is illegal to get an abortion after the first trimester, except under certain circumstances. In essence, the law says that personhood is granted after the first trimester. In the cases where it's either the baby or the mother that is going to continue to live, wouldn't saving the mother from being killed due to the pregnancy and fetus, not be in order?



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 313
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 4:57:52 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

The fetus has not been conferred humanity, thus, it can't have any inalienable rights. It can't have a right to life, as it were. Until that fetus has been granted humanity and human rights, it's not murder to extinguish it.


Humanity isn't conferred.

We went down that path once with the 3/5 decision. If you think humanity is conferred it can also be repealed.



(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 314
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 5:06:44 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
22 weeks is the average altho some are looking to go to 20, but the issue with that is some testing is not conclusive befote then. Which is five months, second trim.
Of course that will and probably has changed in the past 15 years. The testing i mean not trimesters.



_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 315
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 5:13:37 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The fetus has not been conferred humanity, thus, it can't have any inalienable rights. It can't have a right to life, as it were. Until that fetus has been granted humanity and human rights, it's not murder to extinguish it.

Humanity isn't conferred.
We went down that path once with the 3/5 decision. If you think humanity is conferred it can also be repealed.


Okay, wrong term. How would you describe it? Obviously, we've decided that some people aren't worth allowing to live, which is, pretty much, repealing their humanity, isn't it?

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 316
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 5:14:16 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
Now you see, i had a misscarriage at that time, five months, he was born dead, he was too tiny to survive had he been alive.
30 years later, it can still happen, they have made great strides in surviving preemies.

But yeah bounty has only partial information as usual


_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 317
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 5:59:40 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The fetus has not been conferred humanity, thus, it can't have any inalienable rights. It can't have a right to life, as it were. Until that fetus has been granted humanity and human rights, it's not murder to extinguish it.

Humanity isn't conferred.
We went down that path once with the 3/5 decision. If you think humanity is conferred it can also be repealed.


Okay, wrong term. How would you describe it? Obviously, we've decided that some people aren't worth allowing to live, which is, pretty much, repealing their humanity, isn't it?


What would I call it? Murder.

But you don't find that a very satisfactory answer. A court agreeing to to trample the rights of the unborn for political expediency?

Aberrant logic? (murder of one group ok; murder in general, not ok)

It seems to me that nothing has materially changed in the mechanics of sex and having babies; English common law had abortion illegal, and every state in the union had abortion illegal in the 1930's. And it bothers the left crowd not at all that PP was setup as a way to kill minorities and the deformed. Genocide as the starting point of our current abortion law....

And yet stare decis doesn't apply....

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 318
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 6:02:41 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
Interesting: Naral is protesting the superbowl doritos commercial for 'humanizing' the foetus.

Yep, don't want to show people what a baby in the womb looks like. People might believe their eyes instead of what NARAL tells em....

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 319
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 2/8/2016 6:52:22 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline


People can call it murder, People can call it killing, People can call it what the hell People want. It still doesnt make it illegal, or un-constitutional. Nobody knows that a fetus thinks....People are projecting their beliefs, not fact.
People like the idea of women being forced to give birth to every pregnancy she has.
People have no care for the woman..her freedom or liberty, there is no law that says she is can be treated less than a slave. There is no interest in her other family, there is certainly no interest in her other children other than to moan that their taxes go to feed and house them, and reduce them to poverty and worse.
People get to choose when to adopt, the sex, the age, the health, the issues, the costs. They dont go thru the pregnancy and the birth or suffer the after effects
People whinge about welfare moms popping out child after child,
People dont care about the efficacy of birth control, People certainly dont give a shit about their proper education on sex and its need at an earlier age, and facts not dogma and abstinence only.
People dont want healthcare coverage for people like that...
Some people dont care about rape or incest or coercion from their parents or their boyfriends/husbands, The life of the mother? Pheh
Men are usually the worst critics, but rare is the man who has ever worn a condom every time they had sex, unless they have been the vasectomy route or are themselves sterile.
I would have stocks in trojan if that were a fact.

The focus should be on education and better birth control, reliable, non toxic, readily available(accessible) and free.
That way we might never have to broach the topic of unplanned pregnancies.
I think we all want that.

Oh while you are at it, a better shield against stds would be nice.
In a perfect world, we should keep our legs crossed and only indulge in sex, fully protected...I dont see it happening any time soon.


_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 320
Page:   <<   < prev  14 15 [16] 17 18   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association Page: <<   < prev  14 15 [16] 17 18   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2024
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.934