quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
YOU ARE LYING, try reading the thread I made no such claims the holocaust did not happen, Dresden and countless other cities all fell victim to churchhills holocaust and INNOCENT people were TARGETTED AND SYSTEMATICALLY INTENTIONALLY BURNED ALIVE. I do not deny the holocaust I ask 'which one since there has been several throughout history, your painting me as a holocaust denier is another LIE as anyone can see by the OP.

Really? So what was this then?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

@whoremods,
Its a total ducking your bullshit session and not a debate at all with you because you simply move the goalposts and pretend no one will notice you neither proved nor provided evidence for a damn thing you claim, all we ever get from you is beer farts and belches and we are supposed accept it all as fact, well try giving us just one fact.

Since you have your head so far up irving ass, here is what the expert witness said regarding the irving/zundel exhibits:

quote:

I was called as an expert witness as a historian to give evidence at the Ernst Zundel case, where Zundel's researchers showed me the Leuchter Report, the laboratory tests on the crematoria and the gas chambers.

As a person who, at the University of London, studied chemistry and physics and the exact sciences, I knew that this was an exact result. There was no way around it. And suddenly all that I’d read in the archives clicked into place.

You have to accept that:

1) if there is no evidence anywhere in the archives that there were any gassings going on;

2) that if there’s not a single German document that refers to the gassings of human beings— not one wartime German document; and

3) if there is no reference anywhere in the German archives to anybody giving orders for the gassings of people, and

if, on the other hand, the forensic tests of the laboratories, of the crematoria, and

4) the gas chambers and Auschwitz and so on, show that there is no trace, no significant residue whatsoever of a cyanide compound,

5) then this can all only mean one thing.’0

and that one thing of course TO YOU and your ilk is that hitler used the labor-camps as a personal bar b q pit and served jew stew every day for lunch at the dinner table.

I numbered it so you can make your case for 'death camps' line item by line item, despite the fact the EXPERT witness that TESTIFIED actually understands the forensics and is correct in its interpretation and as usual once again you are pissing in the wind.

There a citation for you from zundle/lecter/irving crews star witness.

quote:


At the Auschwitz trial held at Frankfurt in the mid-sixties,

the court had to conclude that

1) it lacked ‘almost all the means or evidence available in a normal murder trial’ including

2) ‘the bodies of the victim,

3) autopsy reports,

4) expert reports on the cause of death,

5) evidence as to the criminals,

6) murder weapons, etc

So dodge duck and dance to your heart content, and shift those goal posts!!!

As for moving the goalposts, you've yet to provide a scrap of evidence that as many died at Dresden as even the lowest body count of executed civillians (jewish or otherwise) killed by the Nazi authorities during that other holocaust that you feel is off topic. If you want to get anal about your OP, start by proving your claim that nearly half a million died at Dresden. You could also state which other German cities were carpet bombed, while you're at it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


[...] the trash you claim about Eichmann is pure bullshit, the trash you claim about work camps being 'Death Camps' is bullshit and you wont find any evidence to the contrary to post.
[snip]
I never said hitler was not a war criminal despite there is no real evidence to prove that.

The evidence to support the claim that Aushwitz, Belsen Belsen, Treblinka, Dachau and all the other ghastly horrors were death camps is overwhelming. It includes the physical evidence of the camps that still exist today, the written records of the camps and the Nazi overlords who planned and executed the "Final Solution", photographic and video of the camps as well as the accounts of survivors and the confessions of many of those who participated on the Nazi side. No serious historian doubts the veracity of this.

The main evidence that Hitler was a war criminal is World War II, which he single-handedly brought about despite the best efforts of contemporary European Govts to appease Hitler's expansionism. Most accounts put the number of deaths due to WWII at c55 million.''

It is bordering on wilful delusion to question the veracity of either the death camps or Hitler's criminal responsibility for both WWII and the Holocaust. But then delusion is your speciality isn't it?

You serious?

1) what is a death camp ?

2) How can readers determine and assess the difference between a death camp and a labor camp?

3) What physical evidence is at the camps that exists today that supports your conclusion that the camps in fact were 'death' camps, and not labor camps as the Germans claim?

4) What is the final solution?

5) Do you have documented evidence of the final solution?

6) What conclusive evidence do you have that the final solution was in fact some evil genocidal plan?


So present what you have and lets all look at it and see if we can come to the same conclusion.

Personally I have no idea what a 'death camp' is, it sounds like some newspaper hyperbole to create dramatize and sell a story to me.

quote:




The Final Solution
Volume 7. Nazi Germany, 1933-1945
The Wannsee Protocol (January 20, 1942)

Stamp: Top Secret

30 copies 16th copy

Minutes of discussion.

I. The following persons took part in the discussion about the final solution of the Jewish question which took place in Berlin, am Grossen Wannsee No. 56/58 on 20 January 1942.

[snipped attendees for brevity]

II. At the beginning of the discussion SS-Obergruppenfuehrer HEYDRICH gave information that the Reich Marshal had appointed him delegate for the preparations for the final solution of the Jewish problem in Europe and pointed out that this discussion had been called for the purpose of clarifying fundamental questions. The wish of the Reich Marshal to have a draft sent to him concerning organisatory, factual and material interests in relation to the final solution of the Jewish problem in Europe, makes necessary an initial common action of all Central Offices immediately concerned with these questions in order to bring their general activities into line.

He said that the Reich Fuehrer-SS and the Chief of the German Police (Chief of the Security Police and the SD) was entrusted with the official handling of the final solution of the Jewish problem centrally without regard to geographic borders.

The Chief of the Security Police and the SD then gave a short report of the struggle which has been carried on against this enemy, the essential points being the following:

a) the expulsion of the Jews from every particular sphere of life of the German people,

b) the expulsion of the Jews from the Lebensraum of the German people.

In carrying out these efforts, an increased and planned acceleration of the emigration of Jews from the Reich territory was started, as the only possible present solution.

2

By order of the Reich Marshal a Reich Central Office for Jewish emigration was set up in January 1939 and the Chief of the Security Police and SD was entrusted with the management. Its most important tasks were

a) to make all necessary arrangements for the preparation for an increased emigration of the Jews,

b) to direct the flow of immigration,

c) to hurry up the procedure of emigration in each individual case.

The aim of all this being that of clearing the German Lebensraum of Jews in a legal way.

All the Offices realized the drawbacks of such enforced accelerated emigration. For the time being they had, however, tolerated it on account of the lack of other possible solutions of the problem.

The work concerned with emigration was, later on, not only a German problem, but also a problem with which the authorities of the countries to which the flow of emigrants was being directed would have to deal. Financial difficulties, such as the demand for increasing sums of money to be presented at the time of the landing on the part of various foreign governments, lack of shipping space, increasing restrict ion of entry permits, or canceling of such, extraordinarily increased the difficulties of emigration. In spite of these difficulties 537 000 Jews were sent out of the country between the day of the seizure of power and the deadline 31 October 1941. Of these as from 30 January from Germany proper approx. 360.000

from 15 March 1938 from Austria (Ostmark) appr. 147.000

from 15 March 1939 from the Protectorate, Bohemia and Moravia appr. 30.000.

The Jews themselves, or rather their Jewish political organizations financed the emigration.

In order to avoid the possibility of the impoverished Jews staying behind, action was taken to make the wealthy Jews finance the evacuation of the needy Jews, this was arranged by imposing a suitable tax, i.e. an emigration tax which was used for the financial arrangements in connection with the emigration of poor Jews, and was worked according to a ladder system.

Apart from the necessary Reichmark-exchange, foreign currency had to be presented at the time of the landing. In order to save foreign exchange held by Germany, the Jewish financial establishments in foreign countries were - with the help of Jewish organizations in Germany - made responsible for arranging for an adequate amount of foreign currency. Up to 30 October 1941, the foreign Jews donated approx. $ 9,500,000.

In the meantime the Reich Fuehrer-SS and Chief of the German Police had prohibited emigration of Jews for reasons of the dangers of an emigration during war-time and consideration of the possibilities in the East.

III. Another possible solution of the problem has now taken the place of emigration, i.e. the evacuation of the Jews to the East, provided the Fuehrer agrees to this plan.

Such activities are, however, to be considered as provisional actions, but practical experience is already being collected which is of greatest importance in relation to the future final solution of the Jewish problem.
3

Approx. 11,000,000 Jews will be involved in this final solution of the European problem, they are distributed as follows among the countries:

[snipped numbers for brevity]

The number of Jews given here for foreign countries includes, however, only those Jews who still adhere to the Jewish faith as the definition of the term "Jew" according to racial principles is still partially missing there. The handling of the problem in the individual countries will meet with difficulties due to the attitude end conception of the people there, especially in Hungary and Rumania. Thus, even today a Jew can buy documents in Hungary which will officially prove his foreign citizenship.
4

The influence of the Jews in all walks of life in the USSR is well known. Approximately 5 million Jews are living in the European Russia, and in Asiatic Russia scarcely 1/4 million.

The breakdown of Jews residing in the European part of the USSR, according to trades, was approximately as follows:

[snip numbers]

Under proper guidance the Jews are now to be allocated for labor to the East in the course of the final solution. Able-bodied Jews will be taken in large labor columns to these districts for work on roads, separated according to sexes, in the course of which action a great part will undoubtedly be eliminated by natural causes.

The possible final remnant will, as it must undoubtedly consist of the toughest, have to be treated accordingly, as it is the product of natural selection, and would, if liberated, act as a bud cell of a Jewish reconstruction (see historical experience).

In the course of the practical execution of this final settlement of the problem, Europe will be cleaned up from the West to the East. Germany proper, including the protectorate Bohemia and Moravia, will have to be handled first because of reasons of housing and other social-political necessities.

The evacuated Jews will first be sent, group by group, into so-called transit-ghettos from which they will be taken to the East.

SS-Obergruppenfuehrer HEYDRICH went on to say that an important provision for the evacuation as such is the exact definition of the group of persons concerned in the matter.

It is intended not to evacuate Jews of more than 65 years of age but to send them to an old-age-ghetto - Theresienstadt is being considered for this purpose.

Next to these age-groups - of the 280,000 Jews still in Germany proper and Austria on 31 October 1941, approximately 30% are over 65; Jews disabled on active duty and Jews with war decorations (Iron Cross I) will be accepted in the Jewish old-age-ghettos.

Through such expedient solution the numerous interventions will be eliminated with one blow.

The carrying out of each single evacuation project of a larger extent will start at a time to be determined chiefly by the military development. Regarding the handling of the final solution in the European territories occupied and influenced by us it was suggested that the competent officials of the Foreign Office working on these questions confer with the competent "Referenten" from the Security Police and the SD.
5

In Slovakia and Croatia the difficulties arising from this question have been considerably reduced, as the most essential problems in this field have already been brought near to a solution.<---So does that mean all the Jews in Slovakia and Croatia were already gassed? In Rumania the Government in the meantime has also appointed a commissioner for Jewish questions. In order to settle the question in Hungary it is imperative that an adviser in Jewish questions be pressed upon the Hungarian government without too much delay.

As regards the taking of preparatory steps to settle the question in Italy SS-Obergruppenfuehrer HEYDRICH considers it opportune to contact the chief of the police with a view to these problems.

In the occupied and unoccupied parts of France the registration of the Jews for evacuation can in all probability be expected to take place without great difficulties.

Assistant Under Secretary of State LUTHER in this connection calls attention to the fact that in some countries, such as the Scandinavian states, difficulties will arise if these problems are dealt with thoroughly and that it will be therefore advisable to defer action in these countries. Besides, considering the small numbers of Jews to be evacuated from these countries this deferment means not essential limitation.

On the other hand, the Foreign Office anticipates no great difficulties as far as the SouthEast and the West of Europe are concerned.

SS-Gruppenfuehrer HOFMANN intends to send an official from the Main Race and Settlement Office to Hungary for general orientation at the time when the first active steps to bring up the question in this country will be taken by the Chief of the Security Police and the SD. It was determined officially to detail this official, who is not supposed to work actively, temporarily from the Main Race and Settlement Office as assistant to the police attache.

IV. The implementation of the final solution-problem is supposed to a certain extent to be based on the Nuernberg Laws, in which connection also the solution of the problems presented by the mixed-marriages and the persons of mixed blood is seen to be conditional to an absolutely final clarification of the question.

The chief of the Security Police and the SD first discussed, with reference to a letter from the Chief of the Reich Chancellery, the following points theoretically:

1) Treatment of Persons of Mixed Blood of the first Degree.

Persons of mixed blood of the first degree will, as regards the final solution of the Jewish question, be treated as Jews.

From this treatment the following persons will be exempt:

a) Persons of mixed blood of the first degree married to persons of German blood if their marriage has resulted in children (persons of mixed blood of the second degree). Such persons of mixed blood of the second degree are to be treated essentially as Germans.

b) Persons of mixed blood of the first degree to whom up till now in any sphere of life whatsoever exemption licenses have been issued by the highest Party or State authorities.

Each individual case must be examined, in which process it will still be possible that a decision unfavorable to the persons of mixed blood can be passed.

6

In any such case only personal essential merit of the person of mixed blood must be deemed a ground justifying the granting of an exemption. (Net merits of the parent or of the partner of German blood.)

Any person of mixed blood of the first degree to whom exemption from the evacuation is granted will be sterilized - in order to eliminate the possibility of offspring and to secure a final solution of the problem presented by the persons of mixed blood. The sterilization will take place on a voluntary basis. But it will be conditional to a permission to stay in the Reich. Following the sterilizations the "person of mixed blood" will be liberated from all restrictive regulations which have so far been imposed upon him.

2) Treatment of Persons of Mixed Blood of the Second Degree.

Persons of mixed blood of the second degree will fundamentally be treated as persons of German blood, with exception of the following cases in which persons of mixed blood of the second degree will be treated as Jews:

a) The person of mixed blood of the second degree is the result of a marriage where both parents are persons of mixed blood.

b) The general appearance of the person of mixed blood of the second degree is racially particularly objectionable so that he already outwardly must be included among the Jews.

c) The person of mixed blood of the second degree has a particularly bad police and political record sufficient to reveal that he feels and behaves like a Jew.

But also in these cases exceptions are not to be made if the person of mixed blood of the second degree is married to a person of German blood.

3) Marriages between Full Jews and Persons of German Blood.

Here it must be decided from one individual case to another whether the Jewish partner is to be evacuated, or whether in consideration of the effects produced by such measure upon the German relatives of the mixed marriage he is to be committed to a ghetto for aged Jews.

4) Marriages between Persons of Mixed Blood of the First Degree and Persons of German Blood.

a) Without Children.

If no children have resulted from the marriage, the parents of mixed blood of the first degree will be evacuated or committed to a ghetto for old Jews. (The same treatment as in the case of marriages between full Jews and persons of German blood, Point 3).

b) With Children.

If the marriage has resulted in children (persons of mixed blood of the second degree) these children will be evacuated or committed to a ghetto together with the parents of mixed blood of the first degree, if they are to be treated as Jews. If the children are to be treated as Germans (regular cases) they will be exempt from evacuation and in that case the same applies to the parent of mixed blood of the first degree.

5) Marriages between Persons of Mixed Blood of the First Degree and Persons of Mixed Blood of the First Degree or Jews.

In the case of these marriages (including the children) all members of the family will be treated as Jews, therefore evacuated or committed to a ghetto for old Jews.
7

6) Marriages between Persons of Mixed Blood of the First Degree and Persons of Mixed Blood of the Second Degree.

Both partners will be evacuated, regardless of whether or not they have children, or committed to a ghetto for old Jews, since as a rule these children will racially reveal the admixture of Jewish blood more strongly than persons of mixed blood of the second degree.

SS-Gruppenfuehrer HOFMANN advocates the opinion that sterilization must be applied on a large scale; in particular as the person of mixed blood placed before the alternative as whether to be evacuated or to be sterilized, would rather submit to the sterilization.

Under Secretary of State Dr. STUCKART maintains that the possible solutions enumerated above for a clarification of the problems presented by mixed marriages and by persons of mixed blood when translated into practice in this form would involve endless administrative work. In the second place, as the biological facts cannot be disregarded in any case, it was suggested by Dr. STUCKART to proceed to forced sterilization.

Further, for the purpose of simplifying the problem of mixed marriages it would be required to consider how it would be possible to attain the object that the legislator can declare: "This marriage has been dissolved."

Regarding the question of the effects produced by the evacuation of the Jews on the economic life, Under Secretary of State NEUMANN declared that the Jews assigned to work in plants of importance for the war could not be evacuated as long as no replacement was available.

SS-Obergruppenfuehrer HEYDRICH pointed out that besides, according to the directives approved by him governing the carrying out of the evacuation program in operation at that time, these Jews would not be evacuated.

Under Secretary of State Dr. BUEHLER stated that it would be welcomed by the Government General if the implementation of the final solution of this question could start in the Government General, because the transportation problem there was of no predominant importance and the progress of this action would not be hampered by considerations connected with the supply of labor. The Jews had to be removed as quickly as possible from the territory of the Government General because especially there the Jews represented an immense danger as a carrier of epidemics, and on the other hand were permanently contributing to the disorganization of the economic system of the country through black market operations. Moreover, out of the two and a half million Jews to be affected, the majority of cases was unfit for work.

Under Secretary of State BUEHLER further stated that the solution of the Jewish question in the Government General as far as the issuing of orders was concerned was dependent upon the chief of the Security Police and the SD, his work being supported by the administrative authorities of the Government General. He had this one request only, namely that the Jewish question in this territory be solved as quickly as possible.

Towards the end of the conference the various types of possible solutions were discussed; in the course of this discussion Gauleiter Dr. MEYER as well as Under Secretary of State Dr. BUEHLER advocated the view that certain preparatory measures incidental to the carrying out of the final solution ought to be initiated immediately in the very territories under discussion, in which process, however, alarming the population must be avoided.

8

With the request to the persons present from the Chief of the Security Police and the SD that they lend him appropriate assistance in the carrying out of the tasks involved in the solution, the conference was adjourned.

Source: English translation of Document No. NG-2586 (Nuremberg Government series of the Nuremberg documents), Office of the Chief Counsel of War Crimes; reprinted in John Mendelsohn, ed., The Holocaust: Selected Documents in Eighteen Volumes. Vol. 11, New York: Garland, 1982, pp. 18-32.

Source of original German text: Politisches Archiv des Auswartigen Amtes, Inland Ilg 177 (T120 / 1512 / 372024-28); reprinted in John Mendelsohn, ed., The Holocaust: Selected Documents in Eighteen Volumes. Vol. 11. New York: Garland, 1982, pp.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

You show me cited evidence of jews declaring themselves the enemy of the state.
Show me the Wannasee papers, thats not it.

So far you got your little peener in your hands and some retarded slobbering, but nothing at all else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

nope thats not it there were not a single snip or removed in the original document.

Ive seen it.

You have photoshopped tinfoil in all your citations from Retard Junior College. Nothing credible or by eyewitnesses or by credible citeable experts

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

no, it isnt. show me the true and correct certified translation. you dont have it in that tinfiol photoshop shit you posted.
,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


I see lots of 'expulsion', 'evacuation', 'emigration', moving into ghettos, staying on germany proper, labor camps, building roads, and finally sterilization.

What I dont see is extermination or death camps?

Is there some kind of secret decoder ring that people need to believe you that the final solution was some kind of genocidal attack on Jews?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
you have not provided any evidence of executed jews, and if they were in fact executed that it was not a justified execution. For all I know they were murderers and thieves and they had the death penalty. your evidence?

quote:

No problem you want to talk about the 'other holo aust' be my guest I never said or implied it was off topic in this thread, so you can stop lying anytime now.

quote:

Ok, despite the fires burned the whole town and in that case creamates the bodies to nothing more than a quart of ash and despite observers estimated that nearly 1+ million refugees fleeing from the russians flooded the city only days to week prior, and foregoing the red cross carries full of injured people that the brits sunk anyway and since you are worried that the number may not fit the offical account, then lets just say it was 10,000 for the sake of an argument to stay on point.

quote:

That said you believe its okee dokee for britain after starting the war in the first place to target civilians women children as part of their battle strategy?

quote:

Either way why didnt the Jews bring these men up on war crimes for targetting civilans right along side the nazis?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

well then lets see your copy

the one you are about to tell me you dont have.

Like it or not what I posted is what is used by the jews to claim 'the final solution' was a genocide plan!

But then I dont have my Dick Tracy Secret Decoder Ring handy right now to read all that invisible ink.

Fine post the fucking thing already and prove me wrong.

I didnt photoshop anything, dont expect me to send you another tube of butt hurt ointment.