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RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/21/2017 9:43:08 AM   
LTE


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quote:

is dishonesty viewed as an acceptable end to achieve her aims.


Of course not. Goes for guys too.

By the way I am 12 inches.

(in reply to Brintholsub1974)
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RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/21/2017 12:07:31 PM   
longwayhome


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brintholsub1974

I have had quite a few experiences online so far with different mistresses and a few of them have gone wrong due to issues with trust. This may be partly due to my what I think of as healthy scepticism.

My question is this although a Misstress is superior to her sub and may rightly feel she can use any tool requires to ensure her needs are met, is dishonesty viewed as an acceptable end to achieve her aims.

Regards

Brian


Honesty isn't a sub/Domme issue.

It's a human issue.

Some people are more dishonest than others. Your D/s identification is not a relevant factor.

(in reply to Brintholsub1974)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/21/2017 4:37:56 PM   
Brintholsub1974


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Hi all firstly thanks for the responses even the abusive ones! I feel I need to clarify my position here I wasnt asking if I deserve honesty It was a more general enquiry about how Dominants feel they should treat their subs. I believe I deserve honesty, but if Dominants in general didn't feel that way then I would have to reconsider the point of being on this site full stop. But as it is I'll just consider my few bad experiences as part of the learning curve.

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RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/21/2017 5:18:58 PM   
DaddySatyr


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The question, as asked, is a little problematic.

On the face of it, the obvious answer is: "Yes".

However, our dynamic (in general) makes things a bit interesting. Here's an example:

I have always believed that my salary is a matter solely between my employer and myself. With the exception of one job (for which my salary was public knowledge), None of my ladies have ever known what my salary is. I've never lied about it, but I have told them that it is none of their business.

As long as I provide all things needed, what business is it of hers as to how much I make?

So ... does she deserve that honesty? No. There may be a reason where she has cause to know, but that's up to me to decide.



Michael


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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

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RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/21/2017 5:40:16 PM   
Shininglight23


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


The question, as asked, is a little problematic.

On the face of it, the obvious answer is: "Yes".

However, our dynamic (in general) makes things a bit interesting. Here's an example:

I have always believed that my salary is a matter solely between my employer and myself. With the exception of one job (for which my salary was public knowledge), None of my ladies have ever known what my salary is. I've never lied about it, but I have told them that it is none of their business.

As long as I provide all things needed, what business is it of hers as to how much I make?

So ... does she deserve that honesty? No. There may be a reason where she has cause to know, but that's up to me to decide.



Michael



I think this is an excellent response.

-Allie

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Lead with love, live with love, leave with love.



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RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/21/2017 10:31:58 PM   
DesFIP


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I believe the op's problems are a result in his only having online relationships. Most people are highly skeptical of online.
The nature of the medium is such that people routinely lie. Men pretend to be women. People present themselves as they wish to be and not as who they are. It's nearly axiomatic that online means they claim they are taller, thinner, younger, wealthier etc than in reality.

As far as Daddy Satyr's situation, my thoughts are that when you set up a relationship where things are off limits, you are setting it up to fail. What else will they suspect you to be hiding? After all, you could as easily believe that as long as she's sexually satisfied, she has no right or need to know if you're having sex with others.if I'm thinking about building a life with someone, then nothing should be hidden. If things are, then you're not a candidate to share my life. As long as you're upfront with the fact that parts of your life are, and will remain, a closed book and that you don't want or expect a full relationship as a result, that's fine. But sucking someone in, leading them to believe that the opportunity for more exists, is a lie and therefore cruel. In essence, you're deliberately stealing time they can never get back.

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RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/22/2017 1:00:15 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

As long as I provide all things needed, what business is it of hers as to how much I make?



That only works for short term relationships though (and I agree with you that it's none of their business on short term relationships.
Once you progress towards long term, how much you make very much becomes their business, because how much you make, how much you're putting away for the future (401k contributions, retirement, long term savings, etc) is very much information they need to have in order to consider a long term future with you.

How would they decided whether or not to buy a house with you, or whether or not you will become a burden on them financially when you retire, when they don't know how much you make, and thus cannot predict whether you're living within your means, or are racking up debt.

For marriage its even more important, because once married, the debt you acquire becomes their responsibility as well. And even if you don't formally marry, there's lots of places that hold common law marriage mutual debt responsibility if the debt was acquired to benefit the household.

If they don't know how much you make, they cannot know whether you live within your means, or are spending money recklessly. And that knowledge has a BIG impact on their future.

For long term planning, there is no way for her to know whether you're 'providing all things she needs' without knowing how much you make, because she doesn't know what spending pattern the things you provide reflects.
For all she knows, you might be in over your head on credit card bills to keep up with 'providing for her'. Bills for which she might be held responsible through common law marriage, because they benefited her.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
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RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/23/2017 7:06:37 AM   
Georgiabound2017


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Great question.

There is a part of me that wants to say, No it is not acceptable to be dishonest. there is another part of me that wants to say, yes it is ok to be dishonest with ones sub/slave. I think it really all depends on what the ends are that she is after. Examples of times when i feel it is ok to be dishonest would be times when she is shaping and molding her slave. It may be that her slave needs for her to be somewhat dishonest in order for the slave to better submit to her mentally. an example of this might be that she wishes to take him to a deeper darker place than he has ever been before but she knows that if she tells him this that he will get all tense and fight her all the way. but if she tells him that she is only wanting to explore some new things with him then he would most likely be more open and work more with her to achieve her ends.

I also feel that in the beginning, when a Mistress and a sub/slave are getting to know one another that honestly is VERY important to the relationship the two of them are trying to build. I also feel that it is up to the Mistress to dig deep into a future sub/slaves mind to uncover his darker/deeper side. this honestly is what helps the two of them to build that deep level of trust in one another which is very important in this lifestyle.

I would be honored to have more feedback from those that read this to discuss this further with as many as possible. i want to learn all i can, to explore all i can and to one day belong to the One, that the universe created me to be with.

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RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/23/2017 7:08:29 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

As long as I provide all things needed, what business is it of hers as to how much I make?



That only works for short term relationships though (and I agree with you that it's none of their business on short term relationships.
Once you progress towards long term, how much you make very much becomes their business, because how much you make, how much you're putting away for the future (401k contributions, retirement, long term savings, etc) is very much information they need to have in order to consider a long term future with you.

How would they decided whether or not to buy a house with you, or whether or not you will become a burden on them financially when you retire, when they don't know how much you make, and thus cannot predict whether you're living within your means, or are racking up debt.



Each to their own, but my own experience hasn't been as you described.

How much I put away, etc. is up to me to decide.

As to your second paragraph: I've never asked anyone to buy a house "with" me. It's highly unlikely I'll be a burden on anyone since I'm already retired and it is about one chance out of one hundred that I will outlive my money.

So, in short: My experience is MY experience and that is the standard by which I gave my response.



Michael


< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 2/23/2017 7:42:40 AM >


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RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/23/2017 7:13:52 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

As far as Daddy Satyr's situation, my thoughts are that when you set up a relationship where things are off limits, you are setting it up to fail. What else will they suspect you to be hiding?



Maybe ... JUST maybe it isn't just dominants that have to "earn their partner's trust"?

Seriously, I gave my reasons for why that particular thing was "off limits" (your words). Business negotiations (which is what a salary is) are between the people involved in the negotiations.

There's a difference between conducting one's self in an honorable manner and "hiding" things.

As a further example: I don't tell potential future employers what a current employer is paying me. I've never had an issue with it, once I ask if they'd want me to broadcast what they're paying me, should they employ me.



Michael


_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/23/2017 8:23:47 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

It's highly unlikely I'll be a burden on anyone since I'm already retired and it is about one chance out of one hundred that I will outlive my money.



That's the whole point though: how is she supposed to know if that's the case or not, if you're not transparent about your finances?
For all she knows you're living well beyond your means, blowing through money, and have started taking out high interest loans to keep funding a lifestyle you cannot afford.
Without knowing what your financial situation is, she has no way to determine whether or not you handle money responsibly, and thus cannot know if she can trust the way you handle finances or not.
She could take a leap of faith, and assume that you're handling your fiances responsibly, but based on how many people get burned (and bankrupted, etc) by that, it's a pretty damn stupid leap of faith to make, when you're refusing to show her that you're trustworthy (which is a huge red flag).

Again, I totally understand not laying out your finances for any relationship that's not serious yet.
But as soon as a relationship gets serious enough so that a person's future starts to be influenced on how responsibly their partner is handling their finances, it would be idiotic to not expect some evidence that said partner is actually handling their finances responsibly.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/23/2017 10:38:59 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
Again, I totally understand not laying out your finances for any relationship that's not serious yet.
But as soon as a relationship gets serious enough so that a person's future starts to be influenced on how responsibly their partner is handling their finances, it would be idiotic to not expect some evidence that said partner is actually handling their finances responsibly.

No offense, but that's part of the issue here. It's also a huge leap. The assumption being that anything ever will get serious enough that it will impact the other person ever. That's not going to happen on the financial front until the parties are even considering getting to that moving in stage, which a lot of people aren't going to be doing if it is just an online thing.

To put it bluntly, there really isn't an s-type out there who should be involved in my financial matters. Engie never has to worry about my debts becoming his debts because common law can never come into it. He's got his own home, so he will never be in the position of, even if I handled my money poorly, that it would effect his living situation. He can't possibly be liable for my debts, medical expenses, have an effect on his credit rating, his retirement, or anything else. He is not and will never be on the mortgage, the car note, or on my bank account. I will not ever be on his.

For situations like that, there is absolutely no need, whatsoever, for my s-type to know my income. He knows in general terms that he makes more than me. He knows that MP is my primary partner and OUR finances are joint, which makes them none of his business.

Which takes me back to the OP...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brintholsub1974
I have had quite a few experiences online so far with different mistresses and a few of them have gone wrong due to issues with trust. This may be partly due to my what I think of as healthy scepticism.

My question is this although a Misstress is superior to her sub and may rightly feel she can use any tool requires to ensure her needs are met, is dishonesty viewed as an acceptable end to achieve her aims.

Regards

Brian

In my opinion, EVERYBODY should have healthy skepticism. Since you are dealing with online, ya know, don't go doing stupid things like sending naked pictures of yourself with your face shown or an identifiable tattoo if you wouldn't want your family or your job seeing them. If you're not 'out' as a kinky person where you work, don't give somebody the details of your employment. Always remember that there are people out there who will try to harm you with such things, even people you *think* you know well.

At the same time, please remember that healthy skepticism goes both ways. Nobody that I've run across online needs to know my street address, where I work, or things that can be used to harm me, either.

Depending on what is entailed, and I'm keeping in mind that there's no specific mention that there is an actual dynamic in place with the vague term of "quite a few experiences online," (which might not mean anything more than some random cyber stuff) no, nobody "deserves" honesty that is above the level of what is proportionate to the interaction between the parties. For example, if you are just an online party who has never met the other person, you don't really deserve to know about the in-person play the other party engaged in at the club the prior weekend because it doesn't necessarily have an effect on your physical world. (Speaking, of course, from a poly and/or casual play perspective.) You don't deserve to know who she went to lunch with on Tuesday or what they talked about. There will absolutely be things that have nothing to do with you in the slightest, so there is no entitlement o your part or necessity for her to disclose on her part.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/23/2017 11:42:57 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

No offense, but that's part of the issue here. It's also a huge leap. The assumption being that anything ever will get serious enough that it will impact the other person ever. That's not going to happen on the financial front until the parties are even considering getting to that moving in stage, which a lot of people aren't going to be doing if it is just an online thing.



Yeah, as I've said several times now: it's totally understandable to keep finances separate as long as the relationship is kept casual. But as soon as you start building a future together with somebody, (instead of planning for your own future, along side them, but independent of them... like you're doing) you'd be foolish not to want some assurance that the person with whom you're building a future is handling their finances responsibly.

AGAIN: if things are casual enough so that there's no mutual financial impact, it's understandable to keep financial details private. But as soon as there IS financial impact it is totally reasonable for both parties to want to get a grasp on how the other one handles their fiances.

If ya'll don't build futures WITH your submissives, then by all means, keep your finances private. I never said I've got an issue with that.
But as soon as you start building a future with them, and your finances start impacting their future (and vice versa) it's hypocritical to play the "It's none of their business card." because at that point, it's not only their business, but actually critical information for them.

Jesus, you would think that ya'll would understand simple "IF... THEN..." statements, instead of immediately jumping to conclusions that the THEN applies to you, when the IF statement does not.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/23/2017 11:49:32 AM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar



Yeah, as I've said several times now: it's totally understandable to keep finances separate as long as the relationship is kept casual. But as soon as you start building a future together with somebody, (instead of planning for your own future, along side them, but independent of them... like you're doing) you'd be foolish not to want some assurance that the person with whom you're building a future is handling their finances responsibly.


I 100% agree with you. My personal view is that if you 100% control of the decisions, then I need to know that you make good decisions. (No one is perfect, but track record counts)


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RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/23/2017 2:06:33 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
Yeah, as I've said several times now: it's totally understandable to keep finances separate as long as the relationship is kept casual. But as soon as you start building a future together with somebody, (instead of planning for your own future, along side them, but independent of them... like you're doing) you'd be foolish not to want some assurance that the person with whom you're building a future is handling their finances responsibly.

AGAIN: if things are casual enough so that there's no mutual financial impact, it's understandable to keep financial details private. But as soon as there IS financial impact it is totally reasonable for both parties to want to get a grasp on how the other one handles their fiances.

If ya'll don't build futures WITH your submissives, then by all means, keep your finances private. I never said I've got an issue with that.
But as soon as you start building a future with them, and your finances start impacting their future (and vice versa) it's hypocritical to play the "It's none of their business card." because at that point, it's not only their business, but actually critical information for them.

Jesus, you would think that ya'll would understand simple "IF... THEN..." statements, instead of immediately jumping to conclusions that the THEN applies to you, when the IF statement does not.

It's the "if" and "then" that I'm seeing differently. The original is, in my interpretation, about cyber play on the net. It's just as much of a jump to a conclusion that there's any future about it at all. Probably more like "if" the other person is a woman, "then" the cyber play can continue.

I used myself as an example because it's a point of fact. A perfectly valid situation where areas of 'none of your business' exist. Which, by the way, does not make a statement of "none of your business" as dishonest. Literally, if I told my sub it was none of his business what day the car payment is due, it's very honest because a) that is a matter between MP and myself, b) he has no legal or credit ties to the car, and c) there's no fair information exchange about it, meaning I don't have the same knowledge about his. (Nor do I want it, as it's none of my concern.)



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/24/2017 3:01:09 PM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

Yeah, as I've said several times now: it's totally understandable to keep finances separate as long as the relationship is kept casual. But as soon as you start building a future together with somebody, (instead of planning for your own future, along side them, but independent of them... like you're doing) you'd be foolish not to want some assurance that the person with whom you're building a future is handling their finances responsibly.



All of that is your OPINION and, as I said, before: in direct contrast with what my experiences have been. It works for you? That's great, but that doesn't mean it has to be that way for everyone.



Michael


_____________________________

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/24/2017 4:13:37 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


All of that is your OPINIONand, as I said, before: in direct contrast with what my experiences have been. It works for you? That's great, but that doesn't mean it has to be that way for everyone.



Of course it's my opinion, what the hell else would it be? Somebody else's opinion? Why on Earth would I be posting somebody else's opinion? EVERYTHING anybody says on a message board, unless cited otherwise, is their opinion... that's what a forum is: a place where people post their opinions.

Apparently you have a hard time figuring that out, unless I preface every single statement I make with "In my opinion", so just for your future illumination: When I say something, and it's not a quote, not cited, or not prefaced with some sort of statement indication that I'm talking about facts now, it's ALWAYS my opinion. Because, ya know... the purpose of a forum is for people to give their opinions about stuff.

Now that we've got that out of the way...

I never said that it has to be that way for everybody. Of course people do other stuff as well. Sometimes that stuff works, sometimes that stuff doesn't work.
You told a story from personal experience saying you do "x".
I then said that I think doing "x" is hypocritical, foolish, and wrong, and I explained why I think that doing "x" is hypocritical, foolish, and wrong.

Because, ya know, again... that's what message boards are for: people say stuff, and then other people give their opinions about that stuff in response. Ya know... EXACTLY like you did with the OP.

I know you got your panties twisted in a bunch because I didn't explain ever other sentence that it was my opinion what I was saying was my opinion, and not a verifiable fact, but I kinda figured that anybody over the age of 10 could figure out that when a person says something only, and they're not citing sources, it's merely their opinion. There's no need to now start making the (false) accusation that I'm claiming that what I'm saying applies to anybody, and everybody, at all times, and that it's impossible to do it any other way. If you only want to date women who are foolish enough to risk their entire financial future on your behavior, while you're totally unwilling to give them any indication whatsoever that your behavior is actually dependable, then more power to you, I've got no issue with that.
But I certainly don't want all other (new) submissives, reading along thinking that it's smart to trust a guy in such a way, when he's unwilling to show you that he's trust worthy, or neglect to point out to them the many many many things that could go wrong when you DO decide to accept going that route in a relationship.
Because despite the fact that it's possible let a partner to make a financial impact on your future without them showing you that they're dependable, and have it work out well, it's simple not a smart thing to do, and there are many people who have lost everything they have, and who have lost their entire futures, because they sought too little proof, and trusted too much, while their partner wrecked their entire future due to reckless spending.


< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 2/24/2017 4:18:37 PM >


_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/24/2017 9:02:21 PM   
LadyPact


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<FR>

The problem with threads like these are that they create the "us vrs them" mentality. Which, of course, leads to the fallacy of anything that might be D/s. That being, that the s-type is supposedly in the more precarious position. They aren't.

When people start thinking they deserve more or whatever, haven't looked at what either side of the slash can do, it's just ridiculous.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)
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RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/25/2017 3:17:38 AM   
DesFIP


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Well, when you set it up that the other person is in the dark but demand blind trust, of course there will be problems. If you keep options of your life secret, then in return the other person should do the same.

I'm not going to agree to sign a lease with someone if they can't prove to my satisfaction that they can pay half the bills. Without that proof, the relationship will never progress beyond dating.

Which is fine if you make that clear and don't say you're looking for a committed relationship. Because that implies eventually living together, perhaps marriage and children. Just don't hold out those things as an option when you know it isn't.

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RE: Does a sub deserve honesty? - 2/25/2017 7:43:31 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Well, when you set it up that the other person is in the dark but demand blind trust, of course there will be problems. If you keep options of your life secret, then in return the other person should do the same.

I'm not going to agree to sign a lease with someone if they can't prove to my satisfaction that they can pay half the bills. Without that proof, the relationship will never progress beyond dating.

Which is fine if you make that clear and don't say you're looking for a committed relationship. Because that implies eventually living together, perhaps marriage and children. Just don't hold out those things as an option when you know it isn't.

Ummm... Yeah. This is kind of what I'm talking about.

If we're really going to go there, it seems to me that there are two people on that lease. The landlord honestly doesn't care that one of the parties is a D and the other is an s. The personal arrangements of "I'm going to provide for you" really don't matter. The Dominant is stuck with that lease just as much as the s-type. My smart-ass reply to this kind of thing is, why isn't the s-type also proving that they can pay the bills, aren't ridiculously in debt, living beyond their means, etc?

Cohabitation is not the sign of a committed relationship. Neither is acquiring debts together. I get it. Some people consider that the natural progression. A committed relationship means we have to do those entanglements like buying property together, have children together, etc. Most people think like that. I just don't.

I hate to break it to folks, but there are a number of supposed s-types out there who are just trying to find people to live off of. For as many s-types who got stuck with the bills, there's a Dominant out there who has a similar story.

While there are people out there on the left side of the slash that are trying to watch out for their financial interests, it is my position that we D-types have to be concerned about such things, too.



OK, I'm going to talk about something else here. Something people tend to forget when dealing with those of us who are V-type poly.

As a hypothetical, let's say I have two subs. In this, I play with one on Monday and the other on Thursday.

On Monday, the sub I am engaging with, we explore play regarding his deepest, darkest fear. He entrusts that fear to me. Maybe it's not something he would share with others. Just me.

On Thursday, the other sub asks me what I did on Monday. "Oh, I was with so and so."

"What did you do?"

"It's none of your business."

In this, I am perfectly within my right.

If sub A wanted sub B to know about his deepest, darkest fear, how we explored it, he'd have told the other male submissive, himself. It's not my place to do it. I was given something that was intimate between the two of us. It's not up to me to blab about it with anybody else that I also happen to be dating.

And, isn't that what most people would want? If you do something with me that has no risk factor involved with you, wouldn't you want my confidence? Wouldn't you want it kept just between us and not exposed to any other Johnny come lately that happened to ask a question?






_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to DesFIP)
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