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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 7:29:21 AM

heavyblinker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

If Nazi Germany had promoted love and compassion instead of hatred

You are saying you are a Nazi

Because you promote hate all of the time

That doesn't connect to anything I've ever said or make sense on any level, but of course this is nothing new, so whatever.

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 7:30:09 AM

Greta75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker
Religious texts have multiple interpretations...

There is no multiple interpretation on the beat your wife bit. It literally tells you to beat your wife. There is alot of allegory in Christianity. The prophets like to tell stories. Jesus likes to tell stories. But Islam source is directly from Muhammad himself ONLY who invented Islam. And all his stories are actual real life examples that he was referring to that happened during his warring time. Whereas Christianity sources were from multiple prophets and the fables they tell. It's totally different. On top of that, many people around the world learn Christianity from bible translated into different languages.

All mosque around the world demands Muslims learn Arabic as they are suppose to only learn Islam in Arabic and from the same standard Arabic Quran. They aren't even allowed to learn Islam in any other language to preserve the purity of the message.

Seriously no comparison.

quote:

I guarantee that if the die-hard Trump supporters knew they could get away with it and it was supported by the government and the people around them, they would be slaughtering Muslims as we speak.

Trump isn't promoting slaughter of Muslims. He is promoting not letting them in. Every country has the right to ban anybody they want. I don't know why foreigners feel like they need to have the right to enter US at all.

So if his supporters killed Muslims, don't blame it on Trump as he never told his supporters to go out and murder Muslims.

On the other hand, the Quran specifically instruct men to beat their wives, so when a Muslim man beat his wife, I can totally blame Islam for it. As the instructions were clearly and directly from Islam.

quote:

I am certain that Bosco, respectmen, tamaka and probably you would support a Final Solution-type resolution if you knew it wasn't going to get the reaction you know it would get from other people... even if you weren't carrying it out yourself, you would support it if it was socially acceptable to do so. I know because you all have the same mindlessly fearful and hateful mentality.

What I support is banning Islam. It's simple. Leave Islam if they want to enter the country. It's just an ideology. They can live without it. Choose something else. Also, you will find that, ALOT of Muslims might just leave Islam just to enter the US, because many would be put to death in their own countries for leaving Islam. So if US said, we only accept apostates. They will have a huge influx of EX-Muslims who can't go back to their own countries, or their government will kill them for leaving Islam. And leave the Muslims in Muslims countries.

And they would be getting the right kind of people in their country. The Ex-Muslims who believe in modern democracy and western values.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 2/25/2017 7:32:58 AM >

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 9:37:28 AM

heavyblinker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
There is no multiple interpretation on the beat your wife bit. It literally tells you to beat your wife. There is alot of allegory in Christianity. The prophets like to tell stories. Jesus likes to tell stories. But Islam source is directly from Muhammad himself ONLY who invented Islam. And all his stories are actual real life examples that he was referring to that happened during his warring time. Whereas Christianity sources were from multiple prophets and the fables they tell. It's totally different. On top of that, many people around the world learn Christianity from bible translated into different languages.

All mosque around the world demands Muslims learn Arabic as they are suppose to only learn Islam in Arabic and from the same standard Arabic Quran. They aren't even allowed to learn Islam in any other language to preserve the purity of the message.

Seriously no comparison.

In fact, there are multiple interpretations on the 'beat your wife' bit-- most of them due to errors in translation. I also find it hilarious that you are an expert on the Quran and yet I'm 100% sure that you haven't read the actual Arabic, which you admit is the only way to truly learn about Islam. You trust the English translations you've read bits and pieces of on Muslim-hate sites and RWNJ media when it comes to Islam, but of course the translations of Christian texts are unreliable.

And if the message in the Quran is clear enough for you to definitively denounce it as an evil book put forward by an evil man to turn people evil and violent and cruel, then why is there more than one denomination in Islam??? What about Shia, Sunni, Sufis?

quote:

Trump isn't promoting slaughter of Muslims. He is promoting not letting them in. Every country has the right to ban anybody they want. I don't know why foreigners feel like they need to have the right to enter US at all.

So if his supporters killed Muslims, don't blame it on Trump as he never told his supporters to go out and murder Muslims.

On the other hand, the Quran specifically instruct men to beat their wives, so when a Muslim man beat his wife, I can totally blame Islam for it. As the instructions were clearly and directly from Islam.

You completely missed the point.

My point was what is and isn't acceptable behavior, or how a religious text is or isn't interpreted, depends heavily on the values and behaviors condoned by the society in which it exists. I didn't say Trump said it was okay to kill Muslims, I said that if it became socially acceptable to do it, you would either do it or support others doing it.

And again, you are relying on what I assume is an English translation that has been misinterpreted, probably on purpose.

Here:

http://www.islamawareness.net/Wife/beating1.html

quote:

"I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"

quote:

What I support is banning Islam. It's simple. Leave Islam if they want to enter the country. It's just an ideology. They can live without it. Choose something else. Also, you will find that, ALOT of Muslims might just leave Islam just to enter the US, because many would be put to death in their own countries for leaving Islam. So if US said, we only accept apostates. They will have a huge influx of EX-Muslims who can't go back to their own countries, or their government will kill them for leaving Islam. And leave the Muslims in Muslims countries.

And they would be getting the right kind of people in their country. The Ex-Muslims who believe in modern democracy and western values.

Nobody should abandon something simply because other people are too ignorant to understand how it works.

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 9:52:39 AM

Awareness

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
What I support is banning Islam. It's simple. Leave Islam if they want to enter the country. It's just an ideology. They can live without it. Choose something else.

That cannot happen. The first amendment to the Constitution explicitly forbids the government from doing such a thing: ""Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 10:35:29 AM

freedomdwarf1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker
Nobody should abandon something simply because other people are too ignorant to understand how it works.

And.... you would support cannibals and pedophiles by that same logic??

Trump wants to ban Islamic followers from entering the US by some nefarious means possible for him to enact.
His first attempt got blocked; but he'll find a way somehow.
I understand his logic, it makes sense.

There are some enclaves of Islamic followers where it is dangerous for non-Islamics to walk or live in.
I agree, not all followers of this ideology are that bad.
But having lived in such an area, I can tell you it's a hostile environment even though we were not directly attacked physically.

And before all the do-gooders jump on their high horses, just take a look around the world at disgraceful behaviour in recent years (measured by western standards) and ask yourself this: Who else apart from Islamics are causing aggravation and terrorist attacks??
It's usually Islamics involved in in-fighting or wreaking havoc upon other non-Islamic cultures or groups.
It's happening all over India, Pakistan, the 'west', areas of Africa, and even in Egypt.

The majority of the trouble is caused by, or instigated by, followers of Islam.
That has to be taken into account, regardless of where you are.
The bad treatment of women is another reason for shunning Islam as an ideology.
In just the same way that we (in the west) ban what we deem as inappropriate customs and made those illegal, Islam should be included on that list IMHO.
No, it's not because they are different to me or my beliefs either; because most on this planet are different to me and my personal beliefs.
But most don't grate against my morality like Islam does.

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 10:39:52 AM

tamaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
What I support is banning Islam. It's simple. Leave Islam if they want to enter the country. It's just an ideology. They can live without it. Choose something else.

That cannot happen. The first amendment to the Constitution explicitly forbids the government from doing such a thing: ""Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

So i could invent a religion to do anything i want and it would be protected.

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 10:53:18 AM

Lucylastic

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 10:53:57 AM

bounty44

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tamaka, I cannot say for sure that legal minds in position of authority don't have some sort of criteria as to what passes as a "religion;" it would seem like they'd have to, but I can at least say in response to your statement---only in so much as the practice of your new religion does not violate civil law.

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 11:12:01 AM

tamaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

tamaka, I cannot say for sure that legal minds in position of authority don't have some sort of criteria as to what passes as a "religion;" it would seem like they'd have to, but I can at least say in response to your statement---only in so much as the practice of your new religion does not violate civil law.

Well in the US (at least for now) it is against civil law to assault your wife. So... what about that?

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 11:14:53 AM

Lucylastic

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you are asking that on a BDSM board....

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 11:18:05 AM

tamaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

you are asking that on a BDSM board....

I am asking whether the Musim religion is acceptable in the US because aspects of the religion are against civil law in the US.

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 11:24:56 AM

heavyblinker

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
And.... you would support cannibals and pedophiles by that same logic??

Are lawmakers ignorant of what pedophiles and cannibals want to do?
I don't think they are.

But yes, in some wildly implausible scenario where the government didn't realize what those two things involved, I would want them to do their homework before they said it was all good.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Trump wants to ban Islamic followers from entering the US by some nefarious means possible for him to enact.
His first attempt got blocked; but he'll find a way somehow.
I understand his logic, it makes sense.

It's not logic, it's fear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
There are some enclaves of Islamic followers where it is dangerous for non-Islamics to walk or live in.
I agree, not all followers of this ideology are that bad.
But having lived in such an area, I can tell you it's a hostile environment even though we were not directly attacked physically.

So what? Do these specific people want to come to the US?

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
And before all the do-gooders jump on their high horses, just take a look around the world at disgraceful behaviour in recent years (measured by western standards) and ask yourself this: Who else apart from Islamics are causing aggravation and terrorist attacks??

White supremacists like the Unabomber, Timothy McVeigh, Dylan Roof, etc. have always been a large threat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
It's usually Islamics involved in in-fighting or wreaking havoc upon other non-Islamic cultures or groups.
It's happening all over India, Pakistan, the 'west', areas of Africa, and even in Egypt.

This is what happens when you install/support brutal dictators simply because they agree to ally themselves with US interests.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
The majority of the trouble is caused by, or instigated by, followers of Islam.
That has to be taken into account, regardless of where you are.
The bad treatment of women is another reason for shunning Islam as an ideology.
In just the same way that we (in the west) ban what we deem as inappropriate customs and made those illegal, Islam should be included on that list IMHO.
No, it's not because they are different to me or my beliefs either; because most on this planet are different to me and my personal beliefs.
But most don't grate against my morality like Islam does.

Society and religion are two separate things. That area of the world is unstable, and ultra-conservative elements have risen to the top and come to dominate. It's not so different from what Trump's 'movement' could morph into given time.

Let's say Bannon starts his holy war against Islam while somehow defying the odds and improving the job situation for the people in the Rust Belt... you would see the normalization of exclusionary, xenophobic politics and that means he could be succeeded by even more extreme elements that push the whole country closer to a similar form of oppression... the relegation of non-whites to secondary status for example. Does that mean every single person in that society mindlessly conforms to this nightmare? Is that what is happening now? Why do you think Islamic countries are so different from our own? You don't think they're skeptical of their politicians, policies, etc.?

< Message edited by heavyblinker -- 2/25/2017 11:29:20 AM >

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 11:25:57 AM

longwayhome

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You do realise that there are all sorts of things in the Old Testament that are also contrary to the laws of the US.

Will you shortly be asking if Judaism is acceptable in the US?

Maybe you should read some more enlightened interpretations of the Quran.

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 11:27:19 AM

Awareness

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quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

You do realise that there are all sorts of things in the Old Testament that are also contrary to the laws of the US.

Point to a religious group in the US which advocates following the Old Testament.

quote:

Maybe you should read some more enlightened interpretations of the Quran.

Maybe you should stop acting as an apologist for a morally indefensible theology.

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 11:28:42 AM

Awareness

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ORIGINAL: tamaka

So i could invent a religion to do anything i want and it would be protected.

Yes. That's why we have both Scientology and the Satanist church.

Mind you, the activities would have to comply with the law of the land.

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 11:33:03 AM

bounty44

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

tamaka, I cannot say for sure that legal minds in position of authority don't have some sort of criteria as to what passes as a "religion;" it would seem like they'd have to, but I can at least say in response to your statement---only in so much as the practice of your new religion does not violate civil law.

Well in the US (at least for now) it is against civil law to assault your wife. So... what about that?

then they, or any religion, would not be allowed to do that here and find refuge in the 1st amendment.

whether such cases have actually occurred in the states, I don't know.

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 11:35:04 AM

Awareness

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

tamaka, I cannot say for sure that legal minds in position of authority don't have some sort of criteria as to what passes as a "religion;" it would seem like they'd have to, but I can at least say in response to your statement---only in so much as the practice of your new religion does not violate civil law.

Well in the US (at least for now) it is against civil law to assault your wife. So... what about that?

then they, or any religion, would not be allowed to do that here and find refuge in the 1st amendment.

whether such cases have actually occurred in the states, I don't know.

Freedom of religion doesn't let you avoid baking cakes for gay people who hate you, so I'd have to say no.

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 11:36:19 AM

tamaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

tamaka, I cannot say for sure that legal minds in position of authority don't have some sort of criteria as to what passes as a "religion;" it would seem like they'd have to, but I can at least say in response to your statement---only in so much as the practice of your new religion does not violate civil law.

Well in the US (at least for now) it is against civil law to assault your wife. So... what about that?

then they, or any religion, would not be allowed to do that here and find refuge in the 1st amendment.

whether such cases have actually occurred in the states, I don't know.

Ok i see. So they can teach that it is acceptable according to their religion but they can't actually do it legally in this country. Thanks.

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 11:37:56 AM

longwayhome

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

You do realise that there are all sorts of things in the Old Testament that are also contrary to the laws of the US.
Point to a religious group in the US which advocates following the Old Testament.

quote:

Maybe you should read some more enlightened interpretations of the Quran.

Maybe you should stop acting as an apologist for a morally indefensible theology.

............. and it begins again.

After not responding to anything you have posted in a while, I make one statement pointing out your exaggeration and misrepresentation of what other people say, and now you're chasing me round the Boards trying to insult me again by exaggerating and misrepresenting.

You're reliable if nothing else.

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RE: Look at what's happening in Trump's America - 2/25/2017 11:41:07 AM

longwayhome

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

tamaka, I cannot say for sure that legal minds in position of authority don't have some sort of criteria as to what passes as a "religion;" it would seem like they'd have to, but I can at least say in response to your statement---only in so much as the practice of your new religion does not violate civil law.

Well in the US (at least for now) it is against civil law to assault your wife. So... what about that?

then they, or any religion, would not be allowed to do that here and find refuge in the 1st amendment.

whether such cases have actually occurred in the states, I don't know.

Ok i see. So they can teach that it is acceptable according to their religion but they can't actually do it legally in this country. Thanks.

Of course.

It doesn't matter what religion you espouse in any country, you still have to comply with the law of the land.

That's why all this talk of Muslim's installing Sharia law in the West is such scaremongering.

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