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RE: inferior? - 3/30/2017 11:29:49 AM   
Gunshow


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If you are saying that societal pressure and perceptions of role have a lot to do with, absolutely. I am only challenging the idea that this behavior must come from the CD's inner superiority complex. Perhaps he empathizes with the way women have been treated throughout history and wants to subject himself to a similar level of oppression. Skirts for easy access, heels for mobility subjugation and sexual exaggeration. These are a part of society and history, and it doesn't seem wrong or disgusting to put the shoe on the other foot, if that's a kinky fetish for both parties.

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RE: inferior? - 4/1/2017 2:19:58 AM   
LadyPact


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This was actually a really good thread. Not many of those around, anymore. Kudos.

So many good comments here. My knee-jerk reaction, though, is to side with Des. The porn fueled 'inferior male' or 'worthless worm' kind of thing is a major turn off. That theme (and several others) worked well for the porn industry because there wasn't just this big thing about accepting one's desires and working from there.

For what it's worth, I don't have a problem with folks wanting to engage in degradation scenes. Done a few, myself. It really can be fun.

But, there's this other thing...

It's this sorting out of does a person really feel that way or are they doing it for fun? Can we experience this thing together without me feeding into an already damaged person? If we can... Rock on! If we can't, I'm going to be extremely hesitant and I'll probably pass.


_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: inferior? - 4/1/2017 3:09:39 AM   
LadyDemura


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Not everyone who is into forced femme is into, or even aware of the humiliation aspect of it. I was very much into this because it seemed the only way to express my femininity at the time. I didn't quite get how it came off as misogynistic until someone here pointed it out to me. I saw it as quite the opposite, more fuck society and fuck masculinity...

I don't think I'm inferior, I think people who are impressed by masculinity are...

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RE: inferior? - 4/1/2017 4:07:02 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyDemura
Not everyone who is into forced femme is into, or even aware of the humiliation aspect of it. I was very much into this because it seemed the only way to express my femininity at the time. I didn't quite get how it came off as misogynistic until someone here pointed it out to me. I saw it as quite the opposite, more fuck society and fuck masculinity...

I don't think I'm inferior, I think people who are impressed by masculinity are...

Sorry, but I lean more with TDC's line of thinking.

You said it, yourself. Being "forced" was the way to express yourself.

But, you put that on someone else. You abdicated your responsibility and made them another person's place as the fall guy. It wasn't your fault. Somebody MADE you do it! Consequently, you didn't own your own desires. Easier to shift the blame for the stuff you wanted to do, anyway.

That "fuck society" thing? That's kind of a cop out, too.

Why not just admit you enjoy the things you enjoy? Seems a heck of a lot easier.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: inferior? - 4/1/2017 4:24:34 AM   
billywilly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirMetal

So tell me why a Top would want a person who described themselves this way?

Is it a staid stereotype-or don't they know Tops realize a wounded bird is a sucking black hole you will never find the bottom of?

Or is it just code for seeking a pro?


BDSM slang. What the fuck is a top or a bottom for that matter?

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RE: inferior? - 4/1/2017 9:49:02 AM   
DocStrange


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quote:

ORIGINAL: billywilly


quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirMetal

So tell me why a Top would want a person who described themselves this way?

Is it a staid stereotype-or don't they know Tops realize a wounded bird is a sucking black hole you will never find the bottom of?

Or is it just code for seeking a pro?


BDSM slang. What the fuck is a top or a bottom for that matter?

Well if you do not know what a Top or a bottom is, I suggest less cursing and more reading or politely ask the community. And Top and bottom is not BDSM slang.

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RE: inferior? - 4/1/2017 11:40:30 AM   
LadyDemura


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyDemura
Not everyone who is into forced femme is into, or even aware of the humiliation aspect of it. I was very much into this because it seemed the only way to express my femininity at the time. I didn't quite get how it came off as misogynistic until someone here pointed it out to me. I saw it as quite the opposite, more fuck society and fuck masculinity...

I don't think I'm inferior, I think people who are impressed by masculinity are...

Sorry, but I lean more with TDC's line of thinking.

You said it, yourself. Being "forced" was the way to express yourself.

But, you put that on someone else. You abdicated your responsibility and made them another person's place as the fall guy. It wasn't your fault. Somebody MADE you do it! Consequently, you didn't own your own desires. Easier to shift the blame for the stuff you wanted to do, anyway.

That "fuck society" thing? That's kind of a cop out, too.

Why not just admit you enjoy the things you enjoy? Seems a heck of a lot easier.




It's hard for those that aren't transgender to understand that society forces us to repress our feelings to the point we almost forget we are trans. I knew I was trans when I was a kid, but those in power insisted that I live as a guy. Then I get on the internet as a young adult and find forced femme porn. Then that quickly becomes the only type of porn I like. Eventually, I find this site and find out that I really don't like anything else about being a submissive.

Still, fuck society for trying to make me feel inferior for being transgender. I don't know if most sissies here came in from a similar path, but I assume some did. Maybe some do actually like feeling inferior, I don't.

No one actually forced me to be feminine, it's really more the other way around, people keep trying to force me to be masculine. I enjoy living as a strong, confident trans woman. It feels so much better than feeling inferior. I don't really understand why anyone would want to feel inferior, but it is a common theme among submissives.

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RE: inferior? - 4/1/2017 11:43:35 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunshow

Nelee,

Have you considered that the humiliation felt from feminization may be an extreme form of emasculation? Is it possible that it's more about identity perversion rather than patriarchy?

Consider a man who does not identify as a clown. If he is dominated into wearing a clown suit and dancing in public (or private), he is likely to feel humiliated. Now, because of the way (some) humans are wired and the society they matured within, a female suit on a traditional male can be the most clowny clown suit that ever clowned. This has to do with social identity, gender constructs, and a hardwired obsession with femininity.

If you agree that forcing a non-clown to wear a clown suit and act clowny could be humiliating, imagine charging that scenario with sexual and gender and societal undertones. One can feel humiliated by the identity perversion without looking down on clowns.

Guns . . .

Oddly, one of the oldest films to deal with emasculation was a German movie titled The Blue Angel with Marlene Dietrich. A high school professor became smitten with Marlene, a performer in the night club. I think this was the introduction of her tune "Falling in Love Again." He came to complain about his students attending her shows. You might notice the snippets of clowns foreshadowing his destiny.

In this second link Emil Jannings playing the professor is seduced by Dietrich, playing Lola as in "Whatever Lola wants Lola gets," he marries her and is reduced to playing her clown as the warm up act.
Most of this clip is crap; it has Spanish music running over German vocals but you can see Jannings as the clown at about 5:23. In the end as I recall he is required to play the role in front of his students. Quel Humiliatiation!! Your thoughts?

< Message edited by vincentML -- 4/1/2017 12:21:36 PM >


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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: inferior? - 4/1/2017 12:42:27 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyDemura
It's hard for those that aren't transgender to understand that society forces us to repress our feelings to the point we almost forget we are trans.

Yes. It is. I don't have your first person experience.

I have to WORK to understand this stuff. I wasn't just granted some kind of enlightenment. I consider myself to be very small scale considering the spectrum.


quote:

I knew I was trans when I was a kid, but those in power insisted that I live as a guy.

Yeah. I'm not even qualified to address this. Whether you consider 'those in power' to be your parents, your school, your social circle... I'm still just learning about this. I'm seriously waiting for a friend of mine to come back from her spring break vacation so I can run some questions by her (in a discrete fashion, of course) about transgendered teens.

quote:

Then I get on the internet as a young adult and find forced femme porn. Then that quickly becomes the only type of porn I like. Eventually, I find this site and find out that I really don't like anything else about being a submissive.

There's another thread going right now that I kind of bugged out on where I was kind of gritting my teeth about because I interpreted it as people using the terms transgendered and transsexual interchangeably. Where I am in my learning process right now is that I don't see them as the same thing, even if it's a part of how a person got where they are today.

At the same time, isn't that also supposed to be a point of self-realization?

quote:

Still, fuck society for trying to make me feel inferior for being transgender. I don't know if most sissies here came in from a similar path, but I assume some did. Maybe some do actually like feeling inferior, I don't.

I'm glad you don't. However, are you painting all of 'society' with the same brush? Haters and allies alike?

quote:

No one actually forced me to be feminine, it's really more the other way around, people keep trying to force me to be masculine. I enjoy living as a strong, confident trans woman. It feels so much better than feeling inferior. I don't really understand why anyone would want to feel inferior, but it is a common theme among submissives.

Some. Just from my personal view, I see the inferiority kink more common among male submissives because they use it as a stepping stool. Almost like it's only ok to engage in certain kinks if they cloak themselves in it.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: inferior? - 4/1/2017 2:51:13 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Some. Just from my personal view, I see the inferiority kink more common among male submissives because they use it as a stepping stool. Almost like it's only ok to engage in certain kinks if they cloak themselves in it.

Please allow me to offer my 2 cents. From my own experience the superior/inferior dynamic is the main focus whatever the length of the relationship might be. Everything else (for me) is role play and dress-up around the main story line, which is Femdom/malesub. That is the meat of the drama, the arc upon which the play proceeds and finds authenticity. The woman is elevated to a special level; she becomes special. There is never a thought of misogyny. My very first hero was Wonder Woman with her truth revealing lariat. There was no forcing power in the rope. I was not compelled. I was simply awakened to my truth.

I posit that those cross dressers who wish to be "forced" are more excited by the compulsion than by the cross dressing. They may be accused of wishing to shift "the blame" because of inner guilt. I don't know how true that is for others but that is not my dynamic. Just my thoughts on a very interesting topic.

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RE: inferior? - 4/1/2017 9:54:20 PM   
LadyDemura


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Whether you consider 'those in power' to be your parents, your school, your social circle


Mostly my parents and school insisted on me dressing and acting like a guy. Also my church. Later my employers. I was drawn to social circles that were more accepting of me not being exactly gender conforming.


quote:


I'm glad you don't. However, are you painting all of 'society' with the same brush? Haters and allies alike?


I am, and admit I really shouldn't. I probably shouldn't hate masculinity and people that like it either. There are plenty of allies and potential allies I'm alienating myself from for the wrong reasons.






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RE: inferior? - 4/1/2017 11:38:58 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyDemura

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Whether you consider 'those in power' to be your parents, your school, your social circle


Mostly my parents and school insisted on me dressing and acting like a guy. Also my church. Later my employers. I was drawn to social circles that were more accepting of me not being exactly gender conforming.


quote:


I'm glad you don't. However, are you painting all of 'society' with the same brush? Haters and allies alike?


I am, and admit I really shouldn't. I probably shouldn't hate masculinity and people that like it either. There are plenty of allies and potential allies I'm alienating myself from for the wrong reasons.



Well, maybe we both learned something today.

That's not exactly a horrible deal.




_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to LadyDemura)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: inferior? - 4/2/2017 4:09:01 AM   
needlesandpins


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I know a transgender woman who is actually very masculine. In fact most people looking at her would probably think that she is still a man, and she really doesn't care about that. She didn't transition for anyone but herself.

I like masculine men, I don't see what the issue is. I don't find camp/effeminate men attractive. That's not to say that there is anything wrong with them as people, but it just does nothing for me.

Saying that men shouldn't be masculine, as though there is something wrong with it, is like saying that women shouldn't be feminine. I'm not the all pink fluffy frilly type of girly woman, but I can certainly girl it up with the best of them even though you'd have found me up trees, building fences, making dens, and basically all the other stuff the lads were doing.

Needles

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RE: inferior? - 4/2/2017 7:15:13 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

Some. Just from my personal view, I see the inferiority kink more common among male submissives because they use it as a stepping stool. Almost like it's only ok to engage in certain kinks if they cloak themselves in it.

Please allow me to offer my 2 cents. From my own experience the superior/inferior dynamic is the main focus whatever the length of the relationship might be. Everything else (for me) is role play and dress-up around the main story line, which is Femdom/malesub. That is the meat of the drama, the arc upon which the play proceeds and finds authenticity. The woman is elevated to a special level; she becomes special. There is never a thought of misogyny. My very first hero was Wonder Woman with her truth revealing lariat. There was no forcing power in the rope. I was not compelled. I was simply awakened to my truth.

I posit that those cross dressers who wish to be "forced" are more excited by the compulsion than by the cross dressing. They may be accused of wishing to shift "the blame" because of inner guilt. I don't know how true that is for others but that is not my dynamic. Just my thoughts on a very interesting topic.

Going to say this first before I forget. It's really cool to see you on a thread about kink and have the opportunity to have an exchange with you about things in this area. I don't get that many opportunities to see you on this part of the board.

Maybe some of my thinking on this is outdated because a lot of things have changed, but coming from a prior era that you and I are both familiar with, there at least used to be, a certain number of very prominent themes in Femdom porn. That's the inferior/lowly worm male and the 'you deserve what you get' because you are a lesser human being. That's actually a huge shift from what you are talking about. You're talking about authenticity where the porn driven person is relying on fantasy for validation.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: inferior? - 4/2/2017 5:10:16 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

I know a transgender woman who is actually very masculine. In fact most people looking at her would probably think that she is still a man, and she really doesn't care about that. She didn't transition for anyone but herself.

@Needles, I believe you are conflating and confusing physical appearance with gender identity, and both appearance and identity with erotic desire. There is nothing to prohibit a self-identified cis male with the shoulders and biceps of a lumberjack from wishing to be spanked by petite cis female, is there?

@LP. thank you for your generous words. I am kind of an old fashioned guy, a shy guy when exposing my kink. But, funny thing about aging; it sets me free from my inhibitions. So, here I am, hanging out the wash.

quote:

So many good comments here. My knee-jerk reaction, though, is to side with Des. The porn fueled 'inferior male' or 'worthless worm' kind of thing is a major turn off. That theme (and several others) worked well for the porn industry because there wasn't just this big thing about accepting one's desires and working from there.


You and Des raise an important issue here. A chicken or the egg question? ~~ which I earlier discounted because the parents were forced to shoulder the "blame" for the development of gay male behavior. In the broader sense (and pretending to have a knowledge of psychology) we can ask the question: which came first the pattern of behavior as a social meme or the behavior itself? Did Jung's archetypes precede the erotic magazines or did the magazines make up an acceptable image simply by chance that colored in between the lines of Jung's archetypes? I was very much influenced by Leopold von Sacher-Masoch's Venus in Furs but I cannot swear whether it preceded my kink or followed it. How would I know how to behave if not for the media? Or, was I excited by the images in magazines before I ever knew about the rationales in Venus? Clearly, Leopold predated the magazines I saw during my teen years, but I was not aware if him. So, confusing. But really simple enough. The model was out there and i conformed my behavior to it. Or, I had these strange desires and I found a rationale for them. Which?

But wait, it can get even more confusing. A Hungarian born Canadian physician, Dr. Gabor Mate created a stir about ten years ago when he published his theory that the cause of adult addictions can be found in childhood stress events Mate's definition of addiction is broad enough to include some paraphilia like BDSM inferiority.

Dr Maté defines addiction as any behaviour or substance that a person uses or takes part in that has negative consequences. The person tries to stop but will crave the substance or behaviour and will ultimately relapse. By this definition there are many things in modern culture that have the potential to become addictive such as gambling, sex, work and of course drugs.[10] He argues the "war on drugs" actually punishes people for having been abused and entrenches addiction more deeply as studies show that stress is the biggest driver of addictive relapse and behavior.[5] He says a system that marginalizes, ostracizes and institutionalizes people in facilities with no care and easy access to drugs, only worsens the problem.[5] He also argues the environmental causes of addiction point to the need to improve child welfare policies (e.g. U.S. welfare laws that force many single women to find low-paying jobs far away from home and their children) and the need for better support for families overall, as most children in North America are now away from their parents from an early age due to economic conditions.[5] He feels that society needs to change policies that disadvantage certain minority groups, causing them more stress and therefore increased risks for addictions.[5]

There has been a lot of comment in the area of addiction and childhood stress the last ten years or so.

Geneticists have discovered DNA~altering mechanisms that can link childhood stress to adult addictions, but I am way in over my head at this point, so I'll quit here.

Very much interested in your replies.

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: inferior? - 4/2/2017 7:16:32 PM   
NoirMetal


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I blame Walt Disney for my childhood bondage fetish,especially Hayley Mills.

But that was the shallow end,until I read Justine, and Philosophy in the Bedroom.

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RE: inferior? - 4/3/2017 3:04:03 AM   
needlesandpins


Posts: 3901
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I know a transgender woman who is actually very masculine. In fact most people looking at her would probably think that she is still a man, and she really doesn't care about that. She didn't transition for anyone but herself.


@Needles, I believe you are conflating and confusing physical appearance with gender identity, and both appearance and identity with erotic desire. There is nothing to prohibit a self-identified cis male with the shoulders and biceps of a lumberjack from wishing to be spanked by petite cis female, is there?




Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about?

I know this woman personally, and have done since I was 17. I used to work with her. It was actually really difficult for her because she was tranitioning at the time, working in a factory, forced to live as a female for two years to be able to go through reconstruction surgery, but forced at work to use the male toilets, dress as a male, but already had breast implants, long female styled...ish hair, and frowned upon by society in the 80's. I'm simply talking masculinity V femininity, and that neither are good/bad for gender, nor gender specific.

These days she does nothing at all to try to look feminine, but actually looks masculine, and questioning why that should be considered a bad thing.

I'm not confusing anything at all.

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RE: inferior? - 4/3/2017 7:27:22 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about?

Seriously, I am talking about appearances and perceptions, not about individuals. Your friend had a difficult time. Some transgendered people do not even try to transition because of the disparity between appearance and perception. Some have been known to commit suicide because of the lack of support and the loneliness of their lives. I don't know your friend; I have never met your friend; I thought we were exploring universal issues not particular people. It is regrettable that you cannot loosen your emotional attachments and deal with the issues in a more civil manner. I did not expose my thoughts with the intent of pissing anyone off. Please lighten up.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: inferior? - 4/3/2017 7:31:01 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirMetal

I blame Walt Disney for my childhood bondage fetish,especially Hayley Mills.

But that was the shallow end,until I read Justine, and Philosophy in the Bedroom.

Yeah, but let's not give old Walt a pass. And what's with that duck running around without pants?

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: inferior? - 4/3/2017 8:08:43 AM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Oddly, one of the oldest films to deal with emasculation was a German movie titled The Blue Angel with Marlene Dietrich. A high school professor became smitten with Marlene, a performer in the night club. I think this was the introduction of her tune "Falling in Love Again." He came to complain about his students attending her shows. You might notice the snippets of clowns foreshadowing his destiny.

In this second link Emil Jannings playing the professor is seduced by Dietrich, playing Lola as in "Whatever Lola wants Lola gets," he marries her and is reduced to playing her clown as the warm up act.
Most of this clip is crap; it has Spanish music running over German vocals but you can see Jannings as the clown at about 5:23. In the end as I recall he is required to play the role in front of his students. Quel Humiliatiation!! Your thoughts?


You're missing the moral that he deserved to be emasculated because he prevented his wife from expressing her femininity. First he demands she dress totally plain and unfashionably and then he degrades her for not being feminine by cheating on her with Dietrich, and blowing the household budget on Dietrich.

Karma in action. What comes around goes around.

Now, on a more serious note, gay kids have a suicide rate five times higher than straight kids, and suicide is the major cause of sheath among teens.

But trans kids have a suicide rate ten times the normal adolescent rate. Places like NC which actively discriminate, indeed legalize hate crimes against trans kids, are guilty of murdering one of our most vulnerable populations.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 4/3/2017 8:12:02 AM >


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