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RE: How to truly dominate a loved one. Tips welcome. - 4/19/2017 1:10:05 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I sympathize with your pov that wearing female clothing should not lead to a scenario of humiliation and inferiority (same use) but given the long life of the meme in our paternalistic history I can understand why that "forced cross dressing" fetish would provide an intensity that would not be found from some other mode of dress.


If paternalistic history is an impact on the perceived humiliation, then it implies that the humiliation is derived from the view of the public on the person being humiliated, I.E. society historically has seen women as inferior, therefore to cross dress in public is humiliating due to the stigma towards femininity not yet totally being erased from [some of] the public eye.

But that doesn't hold up when it comes to private feminization. The only way a man can be humiliated by cross dressing in private, or by wearing female undergarments without the public knowing, is if he himself, as well as the potential Domme involved consider such things humiliating.
Which goes directly against the claim most of those men make that they 'worship' women as being superior.

You cannot experience humiliation by mimicking the behaviors or accoutrements of superiors.
Humans as a group have always tried to gain status by mimicking the culture of the upper classes, it's something that's aspired to, and not perceived as humiliating.

As such, it's impossible for a man to both consider women worthy of worship, and consider them superiors, as well as being humiliated by mimicry of the exact thing he claims to exalt: their femininity. This is especially true if the mimicry is kept private from the public eye, because in private, only the man's only value judgments about women's status is a relevant filter through which he experiences the mimicry.

If he feels humiliated by wearing women's clothing in private, it can only be because he considers those garments to somehow signal that he is now less than he was before.
This is contradictory to the claim that he exalts women.

As for no other mode of dress achieving the same results... when you consider that humiliation is derived from a feeling that your worth as a person is somehow perceived as lacking, either in your own view, or in the view of others, it's clear that various modes of dress ought to have the same effect.

Considering current US feelings towards Muslims, a tawb and keffiah (traditional male Muslim clothing) would achieve humiliating and stigmatizing effects when worn in public by a white man.
So would various modes of historical dress, especially when they're not upper class historical costumes.
Likewise costumes typically worn at event such as Comicon, or Halloween, when worn out of season and in unlikely places, such as grocery shopping, would achieve similar effects.
Outdated (70s & 80s), garish, and mismatched clothing would as well.

In humiliation, the goal is to draw attention to the fact that one is falling short of the 'norm of social convention' and therefor perceived as being 'less than'.

Any costume that would cause the public to stare, shake their head, and make derisive comments would achieve such a humiliating effect.
Yet, most men into feminization fetishes would find it far less humiliating to be an utterly ridiculous looking man, than to wear what a stylish and well dressed woman would.
Again, this says something quite significant about their own perceived value of what it means to be a woman vs a man.

As you mentioned, about the only things worse than women's clothing would be diapers, or childish clothing, and it's obvious why: dressing in diapers/as an infant is an indication that you're falling short of being adult, even to the point of not being willing/able to do something as simple as being in control over your own bodily functions. It's humiliation because it broadcasts shortcomings.

The only way feminization can be comparable on a humiliation front is if being a woman somehow also broadcasts such severe shortcomings. And the more private the feminization, the clearer it is that it is the man himself who sees 'being a woman' as synonymous with 'broadcasting a shortcoming'.



_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
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You love me for everything you hate me for

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RE: How to truly dominate a loved one. Tips welcome. - 4/19/2017 1:35:28 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

You mean even the men that think they are a women aren't proud of being a woman? They feel inferior in public as a woman? Or as a man coming out as a woman? Or as a man being forced to dress as a woman? I'm confused now.

Me too. Con-fuuuuzzzed.

I can't speak for any of these but I will anyway, pretending I know what I'm talking about. Pretend along with me, tamaka, please.

Of the men who IDENTIFY as women . . . I think "identify" is more appropriate than "think" because it removes the scenario out of the realm of fantasy and into reality, the self-identifiers are a mixed bag, I imagine. If they had a nourishing childhood they stand a better chance at self-acceptance.

If they are like those ladyboys in the Philippines and Thailand who find supportive groups, they will stand a better chance of emerging as happy and proud adults. The degree of inferiority they feel would be related inversely to the success of the transcending process and to the support groups they have.

If they received a lot of negative "fag" signals and learned they had little self-worth in grade school they are more likely to be hustling she-male sex on street corners. This would also be true if they had the misfortune of being born and raised in fiercely intolerant societies like America.

The forced dressers are an entirely different group in my mind. They are fetishists, not true self-identifiers. They do not believe for a moment that they are women. Always they are men in masquerade forced by some "subconscious" need to deviate from their maleness. Where that comes from is beyond me. I suspect it is a learned fetish, not genetic, nor attached to some childhood event (like abuse) But, they are men. They may get sexual pleasure from dressing or they may simply get relief from stress, as many report. I am not suggesting an equivalency, but there is an analogy to the serial killer, or the peeping tom, who feels an accumulation of tension that is relieved when he performs his fetish.

Summarizing and open to discussion: Two groups. . . . those who IDENTIFY as mismatched Self and biology . . . and fetishists who NEED to X-dress but are always aware and accepting of their identity/biology match.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: How to truly dominate a loved one. Tips welcome. - 4/19/2017 2:57:22 PM   
Gunshow


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.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: How to truly dominate a loved one. Tips welcome. - 4/20/2017 1:12:41 AM   
Gunshow


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Sorry about my earlier empty reply. I would have deleted if I could.

UllrsIshtar says:

quote:


But that doesn't hold up when it comes to private feminization. The only way a man can be humiliated by cross dressing in private, or by wearing female undergarments without the public knowing, is if he himself, as well as the potential Domme involved consider such things humiliating.
Which goes directly against the claim most of those men make that they 'worship' women as being superior.


Grant the humiliation on either or both parts.

quote:


You cannot experience humiliation by mimicking the behaviors or accoutrements of superiors.


This simply does not follow. Emasculation is a very real thing for male masochists. It's one thing to take away masculine characteristics. It's entirely another, and either more intense or out-of-bounds, to feminize on top. Consider it the icing on the cake if you must. But please don't confuse it for gender politics or anything of the sort.

A man can completely adore femininity yet be humiliated by experiencing it.

(in reply to Gunshow)
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RE: How to truly dominate a loved one. Tips welcome. - 4/20/2017 3:32:45 AM   
NookieNotes


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I think that humiliation is at it's finest when it focuses on something that is true, but is not the TRUTH.

For example, my Pet has an average-sized cock. When hard. When soft, it is quite small in appearance, like a button mushroom. So cute! He enjoys small penis humiliation, even though he is not small. However, he is small in lockerrooms and bathrooms and such, when he may be expose to scrutiny by others, so it is true, but not the ultimate truth (which is that he satisfies me more than any lover).

So, a man in women's clothing may enjoy the femininity he feels, while knowing it is not who he is as a person, just a piece of himself. That is what makes it so humiliating to play with, for some. The contrast between who they are, the gender they feel, and the clothing that is put on.

To me, it's not really much different than slut humiliation/bimbofication. It's not who these women are, but the roles are sometimes attractive (wearing trashy clothing, not caring how risqué it is), even if that is not who they feel they are the majority of the time.

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RE: How to truly dominate a loved one. Tips welcome. - 4/20/2017 8:56:41 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

If paternalistic history is an impact on the perceived humiliation, then it implies that the humiliation is derived from the view of the public on the person being humiliated, I.E. society historically has seen women as inferior, therefore to cross dress in public is humiliating due to the stigma towards femininity not yet totally being erased from [some of] the public eye.


Your logic is flawless. Your reasoning is clear and concise.

However, I spy a flaw in a minor premise and another in a major premise.

The minor premise: When we are alone we leave behind the moral judges that have waved social stop signs at us ever since we went to grade school. I don't think so. Most of us have absorbed the "oughts" and "ought nots" and carry them with us into our bedrooms. Like it or not, society is often an annoying spectator even in our private acts. Our private acts are often constrained by our social mores. The codes of behavior established by our social groups do not easily give way . . . although sometime debauchery does win.

The major premise upon which I perceive your argument rests is the flawed belief that the human mind behaves logically and with reason. You need to establish that premise in order to argue that the mind of the submissive cannot "dress down" effeminately and still claim to worship his Domme. Well, there is plenty of observational evidence to confirm that human behavior is anything but logical. We would have to be able to construct little boxes: one for the humiliation of crossdressing and another, exclusive box for worshiping the divine female. You say the contradiction defies logic, presuming the brain is a logical agent. If there is one thing it is not, the brain is not a logical agent. Just one example: Jeffrey Dahmer cannibalized the genitals of his victims to prevent them from leaving him. Is that a brain acting from neat and tidy little boxes of logic or is it one running amok with unreasoned emotion? But there was only one Jeffrey Dahmer, you may argue. Only one that we know of, I reply. The landscape of human reasoning is pockmarked with volcanic eruptions of inexplicable emotions.

So, however much I admire the flow of your logic, the history of human experience shows me that the human brain is a pulsating, unpredictable, glob of emotional jelly. I can easily imagine being instructed to x-dress and still adore the Domme who gave me those instructions, although I intensely dislike being humiliated, and would never volunteer for it. Nevertheless, I would love her command and control.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)
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RE: How to truly dominate a loved one. Tips welcome. - 4/20/2017 10:08:20 AM   
WickedsDesire


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Do they know you are infact him?

hmm

(in reply to fantasynightmare)
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RE: How to truly dominate a loved one. Tips welcome. - 4/20/2017 12:00:16 PM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

If paternalistic history is an impact on the perceived humiliation, then it implies that the humiliation is derived from the view of the public on the person being humiliated, I.E. society historically has seen women as inferior, therefore to cross dress in public is humiliating due to the stigma towards femininity not yet totally being erased from [some of] the public eye.


However, I spy a flaw in a minor premise and another in a major premise.


After reading your reasoning, I agree with one in full, and the other in part.

Thank you for pointing it out to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The minor premise: When we are alone we leave behind the moral judges that have waved social stop signs at us ever since we went to grade school. I don't think so. Most of us have absorbed the "oughts" and "ought nots" and carry them with us into our bedrooms. Like it or not, society is often an annoying spectator even in our private acts. Our private acts are often constrained by our social mores. The codes of behavior established by our social groups do not easily give way . . . although sometime debauchery does win.



If social mores carry over in private, they are internalized, I.E. accepted by the individual on either a conscious or subconscious level. Only social mores that are fully rejected, either by contrary upbringing, or individual liberation from them through rebellion or reasoning, are left behind in private.

Which means that, in order for a person in private to adhere to the idea that femininity equals inferiority, they must have internalized this as being true, at the very least on a subconscious level.
Once a full grokking of the rejection off social values is reached, they no longer carry weight in private, even if one might choose to feign adherence to them in public in order to facilitate easier socialization.

However, I do agree with your point in part, seeing that such internalization might be strictly subconscious, while the individual could conscious presumes they've rejected them, which would create a contradictory state in believe vs practice.
Which leads me to your second point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The major premise upon which I perceive your argument rests is the flawed belief that the human mind behaves logically and with reason.



I read this single line to my husband, and he laughed out loud and commented: "Yeah you do that all the time. You don't need to tell me anything more. Whatever the argument is about, he's right.".

So point granted, and I accept your argument that it's possible for male subs to both subconsciously have internalized the social more which states that femininity is inferior, as well as believe that women are exalted.

Thank you for clearing that up, it makes me feel a lot better about the whole things, and it will enable me to leave behind the annoyance I have previously felt when coming across the topic. (Though it'll be replaced with annoyance at people being illogically, but I'm much more used to that one).

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Well, there is plenty of observational evidence to confirm that human behavior is anything but logical.



Which is intently frustrating to me because I'm told that I don't follow that same paradigm, (at least, I do so infrequently enough that my social circle notices me for 'being different', and on the rare occasions where I do adhere to more typical patterns, they're all shocked... I'm by no means claiming that I'm incapable of acting illogically).

Apparently that difference causes me to make this mistake in premise quite frequently. I have the tendency to want to assume everybody will act in a logical way, just because that's what I tend to do, when -ironically- that assumption in and of itself is obviously illogical.

One would think that after making that mistake a few times, I'd catch on and dismiss it as a starting premise, but seems to be so damn hard to wrap my head around it, because it's hard for me to imagine how other people's minds can function while being constantly in a state of paradox.

Based on my own experience with bouts of irrationality, I want to assuming that strong emotions create blind spots, which hide the paradox from 'view', enabling it to go unresolved. But I'm not sure that's correct, because I also can't imagine how people could cope living with emotions strong often enough to create and maintain such blind spots. Yet, if I reject that theory, the only other I can come up with is that they are, on some level, aware of the paradox, yet are completely at ease and comfortable just leaving it unresolved, which is even harder to imagine. For me, experiencing such a paradox is intently uncomfortable, to the point that I have to resolve it, and can do little else until I have.

Any thoughts/insights?




< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 4/20/2017 12:01:54 PM >


_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: How to truly dominate a loved one. Tips welcome. - 4/20/2017 4:05:24 PM   
fantasynightmare


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Is this another oh it's the husband posting reply?
It's a shame that people can be so narrow minded on such a forum.
I posted here in good faith as I'm trying to explore things further and find something that could work for me and my husband.
Woman I'm assuming are allowed to post here but do so so rarely that any that do are immediately accused of being male.

(in reply to WickedsDesire)
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RE: How to truly dominate a loved one. Tips welcome. - 4/20/2017 5:02:01 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Based on my own experience with bouts of irrationality, I want to assuming that strong emotions create blind spots, which hide the paradox from 'view', enabling it to go unresolved. But I'm not sure that's correct, because I also can't imagine how people could cope living with emotions strong often enough to create and maintain such blind spots. Yet, if I reject that theory, the only other I can come up with is that they are, on some level, aware of the paradox, yet are completely at ease and comfortable just leaving it unresolved, which is even harder to imagine. For me, experiencing such a paradox is intently uncomfortable, to the point that I have to resolve it, and can do little else until I have.

Any thoughts/insights?


I'll try not to disappoint you because selfishly I love challenging discourse, but be warned that I subscribe to an unorthodox model of the brain/mind, unorthodox to laypeople but maybe quite ordinary to people brighter than me.

First, Freud has been dead one hundred years or so. I think we should bury him and his compartments ~ the id, the ego, the superego, etc. We know too much about the structure of the brain ~ the amygdala, hippocampus, prefrontal cortex, the thalamus, and etc. to be limiting ourselves to clunky Freudian boxes. Not saying we don't have a conscious ego, but am suggesting it is not to be found in one simple locus.

The human brain is elastic: it loses cells from disuse or disease or damage; it gains neuron bundles by new experiences and by practice and repetition. The neuron bundles strengthen old habits and behaviors while disrupting some established behaviors. All of this is mitigated or blocked by a variety of chemicals that are secreted in the spaces between nerve cells (synaptic chemicals) All of this activity begins with the formation of a neural tube in the early embryo. One end of the tube swells to become the brain.

Quite a lot of people think that the mind forms during this process somewhere outside the brain. And the mind becomes the SELF. That strikes me as a cute but antiquated religious idea. For me, the BRAIN creates the mind through its encounters with its internal and external environments, through all the emotional, cognitive, creative, memorable, and painful signals that are integrated by the vast fields of neural circuitry. Some people bitch at me when I say the SELF and the MIND are ILLUSIONS created by the brain, because I cannot really provide the electrochemical code that transposes all this stuff into agency (into action and consciousness) Never mind. Someone will someday. We already know from experiments that old memories are altered when we remember them in new circumstances. The human brain is DYNAMIC.

Back to your paradox. All life's experiences exist simultaneously in the brain stored here and there as electrochemical potential, some weakened from disuse and irrelevance, some strengthened by repeated employment. Some past experiences may interfere with new experiences. Some may enhance new experiences. But, we do not get to make the choice of which it will be. Our WILL is not so free as we credit it. There have been experiments with people in deep coma who were able to respond to ancient memories of rooms in their childhood homes. Spooky and sad because the responses were not spoken; they were measures of blood flow in the brain. They could hear but could not respond. Recent research reported from Brazil suggests the human brain on average is made of about 87 billion neurons (brain cells) connected in many intersections. The SELF is a convenient illusion created by the brain, spread out over those 87 billion neurons, and with a FINITE time span. It is all so complex and too intricate to worry about. Accept who you are and enjoy your life. You do not have the time to parse out the experiences that inhibit your JOY. I know, I have taken a long road around to say "carpe diem."

Gnite

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)
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RE: How to truly dominate a loved one. Tips welcome. - 4/20/2017 6:08:21 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fantasynightmare

Sorry for a long and maybe not even clear post but here goes.

My husband is into being dominated, he likes to be humiliated, has a thing for dressing up in woman clothes and shoes not to be a woman but for the humiliation side of it.
He has done some stupid stuff in the past with findoms, before our relationship; and yes I can be sure of that because I basically took over the finances etc so essentially became a findom but not in the nasty whore who takes all your money for nothing sense.
He is very definitely all talk and being humiliated, dominated is his comfort blanket when things go wrong. It has ruined many a relationship for him because he has put himself in ridiculous situations of blackmail, talking to people over the internet etc etc.

I found out very early on in the relationship about his kinks but chose to stick by him and also because I have more than a few kinks myself.

So basically he begs to be covered in piss or his own cum, left locked up for hours, to be raped, suffocated, kicked etc the trouble is he seems to be all talk.
Typical man once he comes he's done.

What I would like is some tips on how to make him suffer the things he wants but for it to actually be sustainable.





This might sound really really stupid, but what would work for you and your kinks? I understand that it's a give and take or a relationship won't work if not both are getting something out, but if you are just doing it for him, it won't really work for you. He might ask you for "extreme" stuff, but why not let him start with small stuff, wearing your undies even if they are uncomfy, make him do tasks, then make him ask to use the toilet, and without joking when he begs for a ton of things, put a chastity device on him and then make him wear that for a bit, heat him up until he does a lot of things he might not want to do. He might be much more open to them, oh and have him write it down so you can wave it in his face...

I would suggest a bit of a cool down and a talk about things when he got the stuff out of his system, easy to say things in the heat of the moment and with hormones in overdrive...

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RE: How to truly dominate a loved one. Tips welcome. - 4/21/2017 12:46:07 AM   
fantasynightmare


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Thanks that's really helpful. We have already done some of those things. Some things work for me and I guess that's the point because if I'm doing it for him he is essentially dominating me.
I think my big concern is that I really want to do some of the more extreme things but I'm not sure he can truly handle it.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: How to truly dominate a loved one. Tips welcome. - 4/26/2017 2:37:50 PM   
S3xSlav3


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Seems like you should stop letting him cum. Im not all talk as long as I don't get to cum. I have to edge daily and cum very seldom. That means I am fully open to pretty much anything my master wants.

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RE: How to truly dominate a loved one. Tips welcome. - 4/29/2017 6:22:32 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fantasynightmare

Thanks that's really helpful. We have already done some of those things. Some things work for me and I guess that's the point because if I'm doing it for him he is essentially dominating me.
I think my big concern is that I really want to do some of the more extreme things but I'm not sure he can truly handle it.

Well, that's your problem right there. Too concerned with being his service top so he'll give you what you want in exchange.


_____________________________

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(in reply to fantasynightmare)
Profile   Post #: 34
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