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RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. - 4/23/2017 10:23:19 AM   
blnymph


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well in other countries public health care is considered: public, care, and is focussed on health of human beings (not insurance companies) ...

it is a public service like police, military, firefighting ...

we have all had our "lessons" of Thatcher-style policies all over Europe, and most if not all resulted in rapid deterioration of quality and exponential raise of costs.


and if you prefer worse life expectancy: why not shoot yourself even before you are 79? ... might cost even less

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. - 4/26/2017 9:49:28 AM   
eulero83


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Joined: 11/4/2005
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FR
I just got to see this thread, first thing Italy is not a third world country or one filled with uneducated people, I'll provide quotes later I'm on my cellphone now, vaccination are provided and mandatory for the most dangerous diseases I had mine, no-one I know is anti vaccination at all, about measles the "problem" is it's never been seen as a problem the death rate here was between a third and a tenth of the USA before vaccination campaign in the '80s started, simply people never saw it as a problem the common flu has always been a much deadlier disease. Measles has a cycle of 4 years and the cases are actually decreasing in time this year there was a peak. The government already made it mandatory for school age kids no-one complained.
What I think it is about? Well sometime ago a investigative journalism tv show did an exposé about pharma companies producing vaccinations, the new anti establishment party that now polls first supported an enquiry and the note came out from the left wing controlled health ministry.

(in reply to blnymph)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. - 4/27/2017 2:48:36 AM   
eulero83


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here are the sources:

measels death rate 0.3% in US https://academic.oup.com/jid/article-lookup/doi/10.1086/377712
measels death rate between 0.03% and 0.1% in IT http://www.epicentro.iss.it/problemi/morbillo/morbillo.asp
measels has 4 year cycles http://www.epicentro.iss.it/problemi/morbillo/bollettino/RM_News_2016_35.pdf#page=2

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. - 4/27/2017 5:07:45 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

you'll have to point out the connection between three things. one is, how socialized medicine directly leads to more hospital beds. and two, given the double-edged sword of staying in hospitals, how having 1 more bed per thousand people is ALWAYS a good thing. relatedly, does this apparent "shortage" of one bed per thousand somehow translate into less care?



you're not being put in an hospital if it's not necessary and we do not build infrastructures in our NHS for fun, I would like to know also if they counted provate hospitals too becuse surprise Italy is not a socialist country so there are private facilities and it's a choice where to go, beds per capita just translates in care for more peoples and a stronger system in preventing helth related problems and more accessibility.

quote:



this argument can be attached to all your points---how is it that socialized medicine directly leads to that? if you cannot make the link, holding other factors constant, then its a bad use of statistics. in this case in particular, there is no universal standard for recording infant mortality rate and you can only compare numbers between countries if you are assured that each country is using the same standard.



yes there is a universal standards for recording infant mortality rate you count how many babies are born in one year and how many of those dies before turning 1 year old and how many get to 5 years old as simple as that in the us as in italy, we are not a far distant country that does not a census and doesn't collect statistics the same way other western countries do, our scientific and medical scenes are connected and comunicating since the end of ww2. What you might be confused with is maternal dath rate or the rate of pregnancy related death of the mather, this is trickier because what defines pregancy related can be arbitrary for example post partum depression suciedes, also some countries take track of just the earliest 42 days other a while 1 year other just the deaths occured during birth. By the way considering the same standard in italy is 9 out of 100 000 births in the USA is 25, this is due to obesity and an higher number of not necessary c-sections that is actualy tipical of private facilities who charge more for that and ironically have less economical liabilities chosing the procedure.
Back to infant mortality rate I guess it's not relevant only if you think outcomes are not a valid measure of a system and you only evaluate the service recieved when things go fine and you do not care at all to be ripped off, not the actual care.
1 year infant mortality rate us 5.8/1000 births it 3.3/1000 births cia world facts book
5 year infant mortality rate us 7/1000 births it 4/1000 births world bank
so you also have a higher rate of infant mortlity among the 1-5year olders but I guess that's gun related.

quote:



see first point above. also, mortality rates are determined by reckoning all kinds of death---accidents, murders, military, etc---things that are demographically related and have nothing to do with health care.



yes you are right the difference is probably pollution and violence related

quote:



lifestyle choices. all of Europe (and indeed most of the world) compares favorably to America in this regard.



not completely, it's true that Italy is a much image aware and less politically correct society so fat shaming is not seen as a problem but a reality check, on the other side again if in your view health care system includes just the visits to doctors or hospitals yes but for us it's a system and it also controls food quality, that being able to see a general practicioner wothout copay might have more chances to hear your liver turned into paté.

quote:



this is a function of the medical schools not allowing more physicians. in a more free market, more people would be doctors.



the same here I guess the difference is about general practicioners that here are an integral part of the system

quote:



lifestyle choices.



prevention

quote:



our healthcare is expensive because its the more technologically advanced, regulations and insurance drive up costs, and supply is somewhat artificially restricted.



bullshit we are not a third world country we have tecnology and also industries that produce said tecnology on our territory this is just propaganda, you jast have bigger real estate investments by health care providers, bullshit we have more regulations and less costs, insurance can drive up the costs because your is NOT A FREE MARKET the buyer can't refuse to buy the product it's not a pair of fancy shoes, when the alternative is to die this change so much the demand and supply curves that crushes them, no it's not artifically restricted it's just how you maximize the profit in your system and private initiaive will never invest in the care of the lowest incomes it's more profitable to manufacture fancy shoes at that point.

quote:



all that said---statistics do not address the philosophical position that rejects socialized medicine, which is a matter of personal liberty and resistance to government coercion.



why are you all convinced that if there is a public option this will kill the private market? There are private facilities in Italy and sectors where care is provided mainly by privates like dental care or psicological care, in other cases as many people still choose the public sector over the private one, mri for example the private hospitals reservs certain percentage of their services for the national health care service, this looks like more choices to me you are coerced into one choice. I'm also by the way I was free to start a business without the concern about jeopardizing my health care or the one of my loved ones, or an employer has no power of life and death over unhappy employees, and this is freedom.

quote:



if people are given the choice between being more free, having more of their own dollars and living until 79, as opposed to being less free and having less of their own dollars and living until 82--many people will pick the 79 option, and they are not wrong, selfish, heartless or greedy to do so.



You are almost right they are not wrong, selfish, heartless or greedy to do so... as you have not more of your dollars as you get ripped off by both insurances and providers well they are wrong, selfish, stupid, simpleminded and greedy.

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. - 4/27/2017 5:26:19 AM   
LadyConstanze


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Joined: 2/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

http://outbreaknewstoday.com/italy-measles-outbreak-tops-1600-cases-2017-date-84165/

1600 measles cases.

Tell me again how socialist (erm, sorry, national single-payer) medicine is superior.




Tell me again how many measle outbreak cases you had in the US? I recall not too long ago some deaths...

Do tell me how a lower life expectancy and going bankrupt over medical bills is superior? I'm all ears


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(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. - 4/27/2017 6:44:40 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

http://outbreaknewstoday.com/italy-measles-outbreak-tops-1600-cases-2017-date-84165/

1600 measles cases.

Tell me again how socialist (erm, sorry, national single-payer) medicine is superior.




Tell me again how many measle outbreak cases you had in the US? I recall not too long ago some deaths...

Do tell me how a lower life expectancy and going bankrupt over medical bills is superior? I'm all ears



In 2017 we have had 28 people with measles.

In 2016 there were 70 people.

In 2015 188 people.

2014 was a banner year for measles in the US with 667 cases. (I believe this was largely from the Amish in Ohio.)

Measles were considered eradicated in 2000.

Without first world care, death from measles is about 30%.

Cradle to grave healthcare is supposed to be a boon for public health. I fail to see how contagious disease prevention and eradication is NOT a public health concern that should be addressed by socialized medicine.




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(in reply to LadyConstanze)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. - 4/27/2017 7:09:52 AM   
Musicmystery


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Let me ask you again.

Should the government FORCE people to vaccinate their children?

Because that's what works, and the deniers have put their children and society at risk.

Whether it's socialized medicine or wild west medicine -- is that your position? Force the vaccinations?


(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. - 4/27/2017 8:35:47 AM   
eulero83


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Joined: 11/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Without first world care, death from measles is about 30%.

Cradle to grave healthcare is supposed to be a boon for public health. I fail to see how contagious disease prevention and eradication is NOT a public health concern that should be addressed by socialized medicine.



That's why here people never saw it as public health concern, health care is fine, measels is just been considerate one of thise diseases you get as a child and forget about it. I don't know if people knew in third world countries it was deadly would have changed people's mind around it. So your reasoning contradicts itself as the only reason why there still is measels is because of the nutrition and care quality. And again we have private care facilities Italy is not a socialist country, but the public option keeps under control prices and quality.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. - 4/27/2017 8:38:28 AM   
Aylee


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Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Let me ask you again.

Should the government FORCE people to vaccinate their children?

Because that's what works, and the deniers have put their children and society at risk.

Whether it's socialized medicine or wild west medicine -- is that your position? Force the vaccinations?




It really is not that simple.

Should the government, state or local, have the right to force you at gunpoint to have something injected into your body?
If you answer Yes, you're supporting giving a very large, broad, and personally intrusive power to the government.
If you answer No, you're supporting reckless negligence that can endanger the lives of not just yourself, but anyone you ever come into contact with, and everything they meet, and so on.

It just isn't that simple an answer.

Is it OK for a parent to refuse to clothe a child appropriately in the winter?
Is it OK for a parent to refuse to feed a child appropriately?
Is it OK for a parent to refuse to provide appropriate medical treatment for injury or illness?
Is it OK for a parent to refuse to vaccinate a child appropriately?

It just isn't that simple.


_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. - 4/27/2017 9:16:16 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Let me ask you again.

Should the government FORCE people to vaccinate their children?

Because that's what works, and the deniers have put their children and society at risk.

Whether it's socialized medicine or wild west medicine -- is that your position? Force the vaccinations?




It really is not that simple.

Should the government, state or local, have the right to force you at gunpoint to have something injected into your body?
If you answer Yes, you're supporting giving a very large, broad, and personally intrusive power to the government.
If you answer No, you're supporting reckless negligence that can endanger the lives of not just yourself, but anyone you ever come into contact with, and everything they meet, and so on.

It just isn't that simple an answer.

Is it OK for a parent to refuse to clothe a child appropriately in the winter?
Is it OK for a parent to refuse to feed a child appropriately?
Is it OK for a parent to refuse to provide appropriate medical treatment for injury or illness?
Is it OK for a parent to refuse to vaccinate a child appropriately?

It just isn't that simple.


Of course it's not.

But THAT'S the issue and the problem here.

Not socialized medicine, which is irrelevant to that point (especially since they clearly AREN'T making anyone get vaccinations).

Now, if they were forcing vaccination, AND there were outbreaks, you'd have a case.

But here, you're just being silly. If anything, socialized medicine would make it EASIER for people to get vaccinations, since cost is not a barrier.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. - 4/27/2017 12:53:04 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee




It really is not that simple.

Should the government, state or local, have the right to force you at gunpoint to have something injected into your body?
If you answer Yes, you're supporting giving a very large, broad, and personally intrusive power to the government.
If you answer No, you're supporting reckless negligence that can endanger the lives of not just yourself, but anyone you ever come into contact with, and everything they meet, and so on.

It just isn't that simple an answer.

Is it OK for a parent to refuse to clothe a child appropriately in the winter?
Is it OK for a parent to refuse to feed a child appropriately?
Is it OK for a parent to refuse to provide appropriate medical treatment for injury or illness?
Is it OK for a parent to refuse to vaccinate a child appropriately?

It just isn't that simple.



Actually, it is that simple.

Unless it is you that we are addressing.

Thanks to a fraudulent study by a British doctor who was being paid to find a connection between vaccines and autism, there is a bumper crop of completely ignorant parents who seem to think that getting their children vaccinated will cause autism.

And state governments DO try to mandate vaccinations for children, by making vaccinations mandatory for attending public schools. To be exempt, a parent needs a doctor's documentation that would prove that the child would be harmed by some part of the solution in the vaccines in question or some other medically sound reason for the child not to be vaccinated.

Not getting a child vaccinated is not considered neglect where as the other items you listed would be.

Medical care has always been one of personal choice.

It has nothing to do with socialized medicine or any other form of government controlled health care.

And for those that claim that it is too expensive to get children vaccinated, many years ago the Federal government set up funding for free vaccinations through local and county health departments and it is one program that no one has tried to kill.

Then of course there are people like you that seem to think that it would be a good thing for a government to have more control over someone's personal life, which would then give the government the right to decided if you can have kids, etc.

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(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. - 4/27/2017 1:19:30 PM   
Lucylastic


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Didnt this come up in a topic about Diabetes in the UK??
I seem to remember the
quote:

Should the government, state or local, have the right to force you at gunpoint to have something injected into your body?

It would be nice if we could actually inject some reality into that,
Or not


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(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 32
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