Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (Full Version)

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Aylee -> Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/22/2017 4:12:18 PM)

http://outbreaknewstoday.com/italy-measles-outbreak-tops-1600-cases-2017-date-84165/

1600 measles cases.

Tell me again how socialist (erm, sorry, national single-payer) medicine is superior.




Lucylastic -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/22/2017 4:19:24 PM)

How ridiculous can you be.
anti vaxxers only live in the USA? no, the madness is all over the place.





blnymph -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/22/2017 6:07:13 PM)

For the ignorant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Italy






Aylee -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/22/2017 6:12:00 PM)

Single-payer is no defense against anti-vaxxers ..

So much for centralized and high-level control being superior, eh?





Musicmystery -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/22/2017 6:24:46 PM)

You think a health care system (any health care system) means no one ever gets sick?

We have outbreaks of disease in the US too. Even before the ACA.

And both far fewer than before vaccines.
quote:


Italy has announced that it is experiencing a measles epidemic following a fall-off in vaccinations.

The Higher Health Institute says only around 85% of two-year-olds are being vaccinated against measles at present, well below the 95% threshold recommended by the World Health Organisation to block the illness.

The centre-left government has accused the anti-establishment Five Star Movement (M5S) of spreading concern among parents by questioning the safety of some vaccines and by loudly denouncing efforts to make vaccinations mandatory.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0ahUKEwjD9PXOtrnTAhUH3mMKHWwVDD8QFgg8MAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2F2017%2Fapr%2F19%2Fitaly-measles-epidemic-vaccinations&usg=AFQjCNG1WRjWc5d7eVZVfv5z8G7ct5oe4A


The issue here isn't single-payer health care. It's science denial.

Their children COULD have been vaccinated -- denial parents chose not to, choosing myth over science. And health.

Do you think the government should have FORCED children to be vaccinated?





Edwird -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/22/2017 6:41:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
http://outbreaknewstoday.com/italy-measles-outbreak-tops-1600-cases-2017-date-84165/

1600 measles cases.

Tell me again how socialist (erm, sorry, national single-payer) medicine is superior.


The US has food poisoning on a daily basis. The US had 'legionnaire's disease,' the US has outbreaks of whatever chicken or bird diseases. The US has so flooded the population with antibiotics pushed by the pharmaceutical companies that previously eradicated maladies (so we thought) are making a come back from those which survived.

Italy had an outbreak of 1,600 measles cases in a population of 61 million.

My dad had previously good vision in one eye ruined to blindness by what was supposed to be a simple operation for a minor condition, this 'specialist' referred to by another idiot making way too much money for incompetence, like the referral.

Within the most expensive healthcare system in the world, by 50% above any other.

Your point?




epiphiny43 -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/22/2017 6:53:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

http://outbreaknewstoday.com/italy-measles-outbreak-tops-1600-cases-2017-date-84165/

1600 measles cases.

Tell me again how socialist (erm, sorry, national single-payer) medicine is superior.


By almost all objective criteria? By far the most expensive health care in the world, yet the US lags behind all the industrial world, even Italy and Portugal, in infant and maternal mortality at birth. Most other criteria are as dismal. Despite all the carping about the UK's NHS, a recent study showed it superior in patient outcomes for almost every situation over the US. And the British are hardly a healthier demographic than the US. The best doctors in the world can't do great medicine when average times per patient visit are now in the 15 minute range.
If you have unlimited funds, you get superb care in the US. And in Germany, Switzerland, England, etc. We only hear about the US successes in US media.




MrRodgers -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/22/2017 8:04:32 PM)

This is just another chapter (battle) in the war on science.

There are those it seems that want to go back to when lightening, earthquakes and storms in general, were caused by the gods and as a demonstration...[they] weren't happy.

Shall we bring back human sacrifice ? We're getting closer it seems...every day.




dcnovice -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/22/2017 8:09:09 PM)

FR

For what it's worth:

Hospital beds per 1,000 people
Italy: 4.4 per 1,000 people
U.S.: 3.3 per 1,000 people

Infant mortality rate
Italy: 3.38 deaths/1,000 live births
U.S. 6.06 deaths/1,000 live births

Life expectancy at birth
Italy 82.09
U.S.: 78.64

Obesity
Italy: 8.5%
U.S.: 30.6%

Physicians per 1,000 people
Italy: 4.2 per 1,000 people
U.S.: 2.3 per 1,000 people

Heart disease deaths
Italy: 65.2 per 100,000 people
U.S. 106.5 per 100,000 people

Expenditure per capita (current US$)
Italy: 2,579.6$
U.S.: 6,096.2$

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Italy/United-States/Health




MrRodgers -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/22/2017 8:38:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

For what it's worth:

Hospital beds per 1,000 people
Italy: 4.4 per 1,000 people
U.S.: 3.3 per 1,000 people

Infant mortality rate
Italy: 3.38 deaths/1,000 live births
U.S. 6.06 deaths/1,000 live births

Life expectancy at birth
Italy 82.09
U.S.: 78.64

Obesity
Italy: 8.5%
U.S.: 30.6%

Physicians per 1,000 people
Italy: 4.2 per 1,000 people
U.S.: 2.3 per 1,000 people

Heart disease deaths
Italy: 65.2 per 100,000 people
U.S. 106.5 per 100,000 people

Expenditure per capita (current US$)
Italy: 2,579.6$
U.S.: 6,096.2$

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Italy/United-States/Health

Well that explains it. The lefties did it.




WhoreMods -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/23/2017 3:27:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You think a health care system (any health care system) means no one ever gets sick?

We have outbreaks of disease in the US too. Even before the ACA.

No, but people getting sick makes a convenient strawman to provide a reason to whine about the failures of socialised medicine.




Edwird -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/23/2017 3:56:38 AM)

Nah, you missed the point.

The OP was just little brat foot stomping that another girl was smarter than she was, carried into adulthood.

In fact the other kids are not always smarter, they just have more an inclination to make themselves so if they can by actual study of a matter.

Lazy bitches will always carp and complain.




Termyn8or -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/23/2017 4:00:31 AM)

Were the people not offered the vaccination or did they refuse ?

T^T




WhoreMods -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/23/2017 4:05:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Were the people not offered the vaccination or did they refuse ?

T^T

Enough people haven't bothered getting their kids vaccinated for an epidemic to arise once there was an outbreak. The vaccination programme is still in place, but nothing has been done to promote it or otherwise remind people that it needs doing for years.




Lucylastic -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/23/2017 6:11:57 AM)

http://globalnews.ca/news/3345439/deadly-measles-outbreak-spreads-in-europe-as-vaccinations-fall/

Romania has seen nearly 2,000 cases of measles since February 2016, World Health Organization data shows.

The country’s vaccination rate is 86 per cent, well below the 95 per cent recommended for “herd immunity” against infectious disease.

Romania’s measles outbreak has killed 17 children there, none of whom were vaccinated.

Romania’s vaccination rate has fallen sharply over the last decade, driven in part by a vocal anti-vaccination movement there. The country now has Europe’s highest measles infection rate, and its fifth-lowest vaccination rate.

This report is from january.
http://globalnews.ca/news/3176898/trumps-support-for-anti-vaxxers-could-lead-to-deadly-outbreaks-disease-expert-warns/

U.S. president-elect Donald Trump’s meetings with anti-vaccination activists risks triggering a disease outbreak by lowering vaccination rates, an infectious disease expert warns.

“When someone takes a public policy position that weakens vaccine programs, they are threatening everybody’s health,” University of Toronto medical professor David Fisman charges. “They are threatening my health.”

Earlier this week, Trump met with vaccination skeptic Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to discuss naming him to a presidential panel on autism.


It’s not the first time Trump’s links to vaccine skeptics have been evident. During the campaign, he met for nearly an hour with an anti-vaccination group that included former British doctor Andrew Wakefield. Wakefield was stripped of his licence to practice medicine in 2010 when a British disciplinary panel found that research that he claimed proved a link between the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism was “dishonest” and “irresponsible.”


“I found him to be extremely interested, genuinely interested, and open-minded on this issue, so that was enormously refreshing,” Wakefield told STAT, a medical news service.

In 2014, Trump tweeted his support for the vaccines-cause-autism theory:

Follow
Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
If I were President I would push for proper vaccinations but would not allow one time massive shots that a small child cannot take - AUTISM.
7:44 PM - 27 Mar 2014
1,460 1,460 Retweets 1,357 1,357 likes
Follow
Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
Healthy young child goes to doctor, gets pumped with massive shot of many vaccines, doesn't feel good and changes - AUTISM. Many such cases!
8:35 AM - 28 Mar 2014
11,593 11,593 Retweets 9,345 9,345 likes
Follow
Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
I'm not against vaccinations for your children, I'm against them in 1 massive dose.Spread them out over a period of time & autism will drop!
11:10 AM - 4 Sep 2014
665 665 Retweets 784 784 likes
But using a big platform like the White House to cast doubt on vaccines could lead to lower vaccination rates, which in turn raises the odds of a dangerous outbreak, Fisman warns.

“I think it’s extremely irresponsible,” Fisman says. “He bears the responsibility for outbreaks and epidemics that occur as a result of these signals, because he’s in a leadership position.”
Society’s resistance to infectious diseases like measles depends on “herd immunity” — having a critical mass of people vaccinated against a disease. The lower the vaccination rates, the more likely an outbreak becomes. The less vaccination is supported, the less common it is likely to be.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now I know that there is a lot of info on the anti vaxxers side, regarding the various ingredients, but this is the result of not even covering a child with the basics.
you need to have at least two full doses of the MMR vaccine. And while there are legitimate medical reasons a child is not suited to the vaccines and could be deadly, those are few and far between statistically, but the responsibility for NOT being vaccinated falls on the parents heads.

That "most" of the sick and dead were not vaccinated...it would seem prudent to give your own and others children a chance, not to mention adults.
There are people that fall thru the cracks, sadly.usually thru no fault of their own, but reducing the risk, IS a responsibility. Not just as a human being.a parent, a spouse, but also as a kink person.
The idea that single payer kills all known germs, is bloody pathetic.

And as there are anti vaxxers on both sides of the aisle, most religious groups have anti vaxxers, most colours have their anti vaxxers, its not a partisan thing, altho trump as pres is an anti vaxxer(or is he??) its relevant as far as the future health policies go.
Plus he just fired the Surgeon General, what are policies going to be for vaccinations if the outbreaks(of whatever) keep breaking out.?







bounty44 -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/23/2017 6:49:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
FR
For what it's worth:

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Italy/United-States/Health


assuming this was a sort of plug for socialized medicine...

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice Hospital beds per 1,000 people
Italy: 4.4 per 1,000 people
U.S.: 3.3 per 1,000 people


you'll have to point out the connection between three things. one is, how socialized medicine directly leads to more hospital beds. and two, given the double-edged sword of staying in hospitals, how having 1 more bed per thousand people is ALWAYS a good thing. relatedly, does this apparent "shortage" of one bed per thousand somehow translate into less care?

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice Infant mortality rate
Italy: 3.38 deaths/1,000 live births
U.S. 6.06 deaths/1,000 live births


this argument can be attached to all your points---how is it that socialized medicine directly leads to that? if you cannot make the link, holding other factors constant, then its a bad use of statistics. in this case in particular, there is no universal standard for recording infant mortality rate and you can only compare numbers between countries if you are assured that each country is using the same standard.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice Life expectancy at birth
Italy 82.09
U.S.: 78.64


see first point above. also, mortality rates are determined by reckoning all kinds of death---accidents, murders, military, etc---things that are demographically related and have nothing to do with health care.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice Obesity
Italy: 8.5%
U.S.: 30.6%


lifestyle choices. all of Europe (and indeed most of the world) compares favorably to America in this regard.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice Physicians per 1,000 people
Italy: 4.2 per 1,000 people
U.S.: 2.3 per 1,000 people


this is a function of the medical schools not allowing more physicians. in a more free market, more people would be doctors.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice Heart disease deaths
Italy: 65.2 per 100,000 people
U.S. 106.5 per 100,000 people


lifestyle choices.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice Expenditure per capita (current US$)
Italy: 2,579.6$
U.S.: 6,096.2$


our healthcare is expensive because its the more technologically advanced, regulations and insurance drive up costs, and supply is somewhat artificially restricted.

all that said---statistics do not address the philosophical position that rejects socialized medicine, which is a matter of personal liberty and resistance to government coercion.

if people are given the choice between being more free, having more of their own dollars and living until 79, as opposed to being less free and having less of their own dollars and living until 82--many people will pick the 79 option, and they are not wrong, selfish, heartless or greedy to do so.





WickedsDesire -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/23/2017 7:02:43 AM)

He really is a dangerous fuk wifey2 - heh there is no end to the madness you can re-quote him on I will give the mad lying fuk that. But I like t give a nice intro like "its not as if the mad lying fuk went on the record/twat/tele and said this"....guffaws

Actually I am sure there was a story from the last week regarding America, well a town in it let me see - cant find it so here

MMR_vaccine_controversy
The MMR vaccine controversy started with the 1998 publication of a fraudulent research paper in the medical journal The Lancet that lent support to the later discredited claim that colitis and autism spectrum disorders are linked to the combined measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine.[1] Aspects of the media coverage were criticized for naïve reporting and lending undue credibility to the architect of the fraud, Andrew Wakefield.

In some ways it ties in with today thread off Science anarchists http://www.collarchat.com/m_5025597/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#5025597

But I will also add we live in an ever increasing chemical/toxic environment (note I did not say sterile) besides we all know what happened to the Martians in War of the Worlds - which is amazing when you think about it as they author wouldn't have known at that time how sterile their environment was cosmic rays – I get he wasn’t driving at that but a curious happenstance nevertheless




dcnovice -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/23/2017 7:44:41 AM)

quote:

assuming this was a sort of plug for socialized medicine...

No, it was an effort to underscore the folly of taking a single fact--in this case, the measles outbreak in Rome--as somehow answering the complex, thorny question of how to structure a healthcare system.

I'm sure you meant to address that key problem--the basis of the whole thread, after all--but ran out of time. [:)]




Lucylastic -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/23/2017 7:59:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

assuming this was a sort of plug for socialized medicine...

No, it was an effort to underscore the folly of taking a single fact--in this case, the measles outbreak in Rome--as somehow answering the complex, thorny question of how to structure a healthcare system.

I'm sure you meant to address that key problem--the basis of the whole thread, after all--but ran out of time. [:)]

that must be it DC>...[;)]




dcnovice -> RE: Italy and vaccinations . . Rome, we have a problem. (4/23/2017 8:19:06 AM)

quote:

statistics do not address the philosophical position that rejects socialized medicine, which is a matter of personal liberty and resistance to government coercion.

True. Faith-based viewpoints are notoriously impervious to data. [:)]




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