quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Yes... "their natural cause death [was] too peaceful" for the man I hold responsible for my mothers death and looting her bank accounts. I was furious that I could not kill him on the year to date of my mother's death to send a message. Sadly, he just didn't live that long.

quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

OK longwayhome, I'm going to give you a prime example of all this that perfectly shows my stance on it; I spent a vast amount of my relationship forgiving my ex for fucking up, for hurting me, for not listening to me when I'd say 'Please don't do that because this will happen, and I'll be left picking up the pieces, yet again', listening to him telling me how he knew what he was doing this time, to stop chelping, and so on. Only for it all to go exactly the way I said, and for me to be then listening to 'I'm so sorry, I promise it will be different next time, please, please, please. I promise ... sit me down, make me listen, I'll do whatever it takes', and I'd remind him that he'd said this last time too, and the time before, and we'd get to next time, so I'd remind him of the promise, but then I'd be listening to 'It's different this time, I know what I'm doing' and so on it would go. In sixteen years that man never kept a single promise to me. His last promises were to our son. That he'd stick to the agreement with me over the house when we split up. He put his hand on our 15 year old son's head, and swore on his life that he would stick to that agreement, then didn't, and called our son a liar to his solicitors. He dragged everything out, made us homeless, and put our son in the middle rather than do the right thing.

That arsehole had cheated on me, not once, but twice, so the above was adding insult to injury, and my son knew it. Now, I put everything my ex did to me aside, and I kept everything civilized for my son's benefit to start with so that it was as easy on him as possible, but he was too much of an arsehole to even behave like a real father to his son. In the end his son decided he wanted nothing to do with him. I owe him nothing at all. Now even if I could forgive him for what he'd done to me, I will never forgive him for what he put our son through. He didn't have to watch what that caused, but I did. I had to deal with the fall out from all that.

He also has another son from a previous relationship, my step-son, who has children of his own, my Grandchildren. All of this causes tension there too, because he's too much of a child to be civilized about any of it. He makes no effort with his son, or the children at all unless there is a birthday, and then all of a sudden he has to be there right when he knows I would be there. Now, I could actually be in a room, say hi, and get on with celebrating my Grandchild's birthday and basically ignore him, but he's too childish to even do that because somehow he thinks he's a victim in all this. He's a narcissistic twat.

I forgave him far too many times, to the point that it was devalued, and he lost all respect for me. When he cheated on me the second time he seriously thought I was going to take him back. That pattern of forgiveness was so set with him that he really thought he could disrespect me so much that it just wouldn't matter. However, worst of all, he treated our son in exactly the same way. To the point that he's lost that relationship too, because my son has also learned that you can only forgive a person so many times before it becomes as meaningless as their sorry.

Indifference is to feel nothing at all. Now to suggest that forgiveness could ever be close to being the same shows a total lack of respect for what it is. These things are not mere words to be used interchangeably. I have not forgiven my ex in any way what-so-ever, and never shall. I am, however, totally indifferent to him. Forgiveness was something I gave, often at a cost to myself. Sorry was something that I heard far too often until it became meaningless, and empty. Then you are left with indifference because there is just nothing left to give, and sometimes this happens with family members too.

Needles

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Yes... "their natural cause death [was] too peaceful" for the man I hold responsible for my mothers death and looting her bank accounts. I was furious that I could not kill him on the year to date of my mother's death to send a message. Sadly, he just didn't live that long.

I was thinking that the fact that he died so close to your mom's death was his retribution too, abit like karma. But just that justice meted out did not agree with what is satisfying enough for you.

But yea, if somebody cause years of sufferings to someone else. I think quick death is too easy for them, way too easy.

This part is more in response to OP ideas of forgiveness.

I think the issue I have about forgiving someone personally, it depends on the level of the wrongs. But if someone did extreme wrong, forgiving them feels like, they are just getting away with it. And they don't deserve it. And anyway, most of the people who did great wrong, probably does not care whether you forgive them or not because they most of the time do not agree with you that they have did anything wrong to you. So on their end, they feel they got nothing to need to be forgiven about.

People always like to claim when you forgive someone, it's only good for your own soul. But I disagree. I hate unfairness. There are alot of things that are unfair that I cannot control.

But at least within my own judgement of things, I'd like to make sure things are treated fairly. And for somebody who commit heinous things get forgiveness who does not deserve it. Will never sit right to me.

Because no matter what. One cannot say you have forgiven UNLESS, you are back to being in good relations with that person. You can't claim you have forgiven and yet still stay cold and keep a distance. I think that's just bullshit forgiveness as the cold actions shows you still harbour a grudge.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Thanks, but I'll stand with the victims.

The onus,and will not ever be, on those of us, from your judgement on high, to forgive.

I was a stalking victim for years. Three and a half years, to be precise. After you spend a thousand days under that, you can talk about forgiveness.

Until my stalker comes clean, there will be no peace.

If my posts disturb you, sweetheart, I'm ok with that.

---

Before people go lecturing bout forgiveness, I'll remind you that I'm still right here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

OK longwayhome, I'm going to give you a prime example of all this that perfectly shows my stance on it; I spent a vast amount of my relationship forgiving my ex for fucking up, for hurting me, for not listening to me when I'd say 'Please don't do that because this will happen, and I'll be left picking up the pieces, yet again', listening to him telling me how he knew what he was doing this time, to stop chelping, and so on. Only for it all to go exactly the way I said, and for me to be then listening to 'I'm so sorry, I promise it will be different next time, please, please, please. I promise ... sit me down, make me listen, I'll do whatever it takes', and I'd remind him that he'd said this last time too, and the time before, and we'd get to next time, so I'd remind him of the promise, but then I'd be listening to 'It's different this time, I know what I'm doing' and so on it would go. In sixteen years that man never kept a single promise to me. His last promises were to our son. That he'd stick to the agreement with me over the house when we split up. He put his hand on our 15 year old son's head, and swore on his life that he would stick to that agreement, then didn't, and called our son a liar to his solicitors. He dragged everything out, made us homeless, and put our son in the middle rather than do the right thing.

That arsehole had cheated on me, not once, but twice, so the above was adding insult to injury, and my son knew it. Now, I put everything my ex did to me aside, and I kept everything civilized for my son's benefit to start with so that it was as easy on him as possible, but he was too much of an arsehole to even behave like a real father to his son. In the end his son decided he wanted nothing to do with him. I owe him nothing at all. Now even if I could forgive him for what he'd done to me, I will never forgive him for what he put our son through. He didn't have to watch what that caused, but I did. I had to deal with the fall out from all that.

He also has another son from a previous relationship, my step-son, who has children of his own, my Grandchildren. All of this causes tension there too, because he's too much of a child to be civilized about any of it. He makes no effort with his son, or the children at all unless there is a birthday, and then all of a sudden he has to be there right when he knows I would be there. Now, I could actually be in a room, say hi, and get on with celebrating my Grandchild's birthday and basically ignore him, but he's too childish to even do that because somehow he thinks he's a victim in all this. He's a narcissistic twat.

I forgave him far too many times, to the point that it was devalued, and he lost all respect for me. When he cheated on me the second time he seriously thought I was going to take him back. That pattern of forgiveness was so set with him that he really thought he could disrespect me so much that it just wouldn't matter. However, worst of all, he treated our son in exactly the same way. To the point that he's lost that relationship too, because my son has also learned that you can only forgive a person so many times before it becomes as meaningless as their sorry.

Indifference is to feel nothing at all. Now to suggest that forgiveness could ever be close to being the same shows a total lack of respect for what it is. These things are not mere words to be used interchangeably. I have not forgiven my ex in any way what-so-ever, and never shall. I am, however, totally indifferent to him. Forgiveness was something I gave, often at a cost to myself. Sorry was something that I heard far too often until it became meaningless, and empty. Then you are left with indifference because there is just nothing left to give, and sometimes this happens with family members too.

Needles

I don't think anything I have said negates your personal experience in any way.

Firstly as you point out in detail repeatedly reconciling with someone who carries on hurting or damaging you, and gives you no basis for trust, is ultimately destructive. In all things there is a big difference between making a mistake and carrying on regardless of the hurt you are causing other people. Please do not take my not quoting examples to mean that I have no personal understanding of this or that I would necessarily seek any sort of reconciliation with someone in similar circumstances.

It is entirely your prerogative not to forgive your ex. You have also clearly described how your indifference is as a result of being ground down and wrung out so that there is no care left, rather than anything you could describe as forgiveness. I absolutely get that and the need we all have for self-protection.

For my part I may choose to "forgive" someone as part of letting go and making sure that what they have done cannot affect me any more, but I cannot do it on behalf of anyone else they have hurt or let down. Indeed dealing with what people do to others you love and can't entirely protect is much more difficult than processing what happens directly to you. In the fourth paragraph of my previous post I indicated that both situations where reconciliation was possible and situations involving moving on without reconciliation required a certain amount of forgiveness on my part. That is very different from respecting, trusting or ever letting that person back into your life.

In any case, whilst I sense your annoyance with me, I am certainly not telling you to make "forgiveness" any part of the way you come to terms with things personally, nor am I making any judgements on how you live your life or how feel about what has happened to you.

I do understand the differences between the concepts of forgiveness, reconciliation and indifference. Just as I am sure the history you described was heavily edited, there are things which I have internalised that I will not be sharing on the Boards. As I suggested in my last post, how I choose to put those things together to deal with any violence, abuse and neglect that has happened to me, or those I care about, may work for me in my life but I don't expect it to work for everybody.

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Thanks, but I'll stand with the victims.

The onus,and will not ever be, on those of us, from your judgement on high, to forgive.

I was a stalking victim for years. Three and a half years, to be precise. After you spend a thousand days under that, you can talk about forgiveness.

Until my stalker comes clean, there will be no peace.

If my posts disturb you, sweetheart, I'm ok with that.

---

Before people go lecturing bout forgiveness, I'll remind you that I'm still right here.

Of course your posts don't disturb me.

And I am not lecturing you on forgiveness. I responded to something someone else said, gave my own take on it and specifically said that I was not recommending it for anyone else.

Your approach to your stalker is entirely your own business.

In my very first post in this thread I was actually thinking about arguments between family members, which was why I talked about "rifts with people you should care about". I subsequently made it clear that I understood that there are "people and situations where it is too painful or even damaging to allow them back into your life". Big difference reconciling with your immediate family where there has been a falling out and forgiving someone who harmed you and could harm you again given the opportunity.

Frankly even if your stalker came clean to the justice system and there was an offer of restorative justice, you are under no obligation whatsoever to engage in any of it. Your first responsibility is to yourself and I could not tell you how to approach the issue.

Not quite sure how I became the poster boy for telling everyone what to do when I have done nothing of the sort.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Apparently the OP has lost the opportunity to handle an unresolved issue with someone. Well, in my own version of their Public Service Announcement, I would remind you that the opposite is also true. Anger also gets shit done and you shouldn't waste it.

I was never so pissed in my life as when someone died of natural causes before I could kill them . . . I will never every be able to watch their face as the life drains out of them while I strangle them with their own intestines. I want them to see my eyes, knowing that I am the one killing them slowly after having cut them open.

So... "Don't waste time so you don't risk loosing the opportunity." "Don't keep yourself surrounded by the negative energy"... kill your enemies today.

One of the problems with the world today is that not enough people drink from the skulls of their enemies. That is my public service announcement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

For my part I may choose to "forgive" someone as part of letting go and making sure that what they have done cannot affect me any more, but I cannot do it on behalf of anyone else they have hurt or let down. Indeed dealing with what people do to others you love and can't entirely protect is much more difficult than processing what happens directly to you. In the fourth paragraph of my previous post I indicated that both situations where reconciliation was possible and situations involving moving on without reconciliation required a certain amount of forgiveness on my part. That is very different from respecting, trusting or ever letting that person back into your life.

I do understand the differences between the concepts of forgiveness, reconciliation and indifference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptR

That's just .... Messy and waaaayyy too labor intensive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

For my part I may choose to "forgive" someone as part of letting go and making sure that what they have done cannot affect me any more, but I cannot do it on behalf of anyone else they have hurt or let down. Indeed dealing with what people do to others you love and can't entirely protect is much more difficult than processing what happens directly to you. In the fourth paragraph of my previous post I indicated that both situations where reconciliation was possible and situations involving moving on without reconciliation required a certain amount of forgiveness on my part. That is very different from respecting, trusting or ever letting that person back into your life.

I do understand the differences between the concepts of forgiveness, reconciliation and indifference.

I'm not trying to invalidate your experiences here, or to be on your case, I'm just genuinely curious how you resolve -what seems to me- a huge internal conflict.

To use needles' story as an example:

She dealt with a man (A) who treated her in such a way that reconciliation was impossible and cut him out of her life as a result.

Lets now assume that for the sake of a hypothetical she would later start dating another man (B) who repeated some of the same mistakes as the first one did, early in their relationship. But instead of acting like A when he was caught, man B now really listened to needles, understood why he was wrong, and then went through several difficult steps in order to change his behavior (went to AA, sought counseling, changed core behavior to become more accountable, etc, etc).
So after a while, when needles saw that man B was genuinely changed and sorry, she decided to forgive him, and move on, and they lived happily ever after.

Now as for you, longwayhome, you state that you would have forgiven both man A, as well as man B, in order to move on.
And if that's really the case, then here's what I don't get: If man A gets the same forgiveness that man B worked so hard for, doesn't that diminish the things man B did in importance? If the same forgiveness is handed out whether the perpetrator deserves it or not, how to you -emotionally- distinguish between how great it is that man B worked so hard to earn that forgiveness, and how low it is that man A didn't do anything to deserve it?

You're placing them both on the same level, by granting them the same emotional space of forgiveness, making that space less valuable now than it could have been, because it includes people like man A.

I guess what I don't understand is: why do you need to forgive somebody who's done nothing to deserve it, in order to move on from what he did? Why grant him such an exalted status, when he's done nothing to deserve it? What gain are you getting yourself from forgiving him, which would be missing from just moving on?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub22

Maybe forgiveness is on a curve - white to grey to black and all shades in between. You could get the basic white forgiveness package, where you forgive and avoid, or the black package where you forgive, integrate the person into your life and live happily ever after, or any scenario between the two. Don't think that forgiveness is "either or".

After all, it involves at least two people, which makes for infinite variations on the theme.

quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

OK longwayhome, I'm going to give you a prime example of all this that perfectly shows my stance on it; I spent a vast amount of my relationship forgiving my ex for fucking up, for hurting me, for not listening to me when I'd say 'Please don't do that because this will happen, and I'll be left picking up the pieces, yet again', listening to him telling me how he knew what he was doing this time, to stop chelping, and so on. Only for it all to go exactly the way I said, and for me to be then listening to 'I'm so sorry, I promise it will be different next time, please, please, please. I promise ... sit me down, make me listen, I'll do whatever it takes', and I'd remind him that he'd said this last time too, and the time before, and we'd get to next time, so I'd remind him of the promise, but then I'd be listening to 'It's different this time, I know what I'm doing' and so on it would go. In sixteen years that man never kept a single promise to me. His last promises were to our son. That he'd stick to the agreement with me over the house when we split up. He put his hand on our 15 year old son's head, and swore on his life that he would stick to that agreement, then didn't, and called our son a liar to his solicitors. He dragged everything out, made us homeless, and put our son in the middle rather than do the right thing.

That arsehole had cheated on me, not once, but twice, so the above was adding insult to injury, and my son knew it. Now, I put everything my ex did to me aside, and I kept everything civilized for my son's benefit to start with so that it was as easy on him as possible, but he was too much of an arsehole to even behave like a real father to his son. In the end his son decided he wanted nothing to do with him. I owe him nothing at all. Now even if I could forgive him for what he'd done to me, I will never forgive him for what he put our son through. He didn't have to watch what that caused, but I did. I had to deal with the fall out from all that.

He also has another son from a previous relationship, my step-son, who has children of his own, my Grandchildren. All of this causes tension there too, because he's too much of a child to be civilized about any of it. He makes no effort with his son, or the children at all unless there is a birthday, and then all of a sudden he has to be there right when he knows I would be there. Now, I could actually be in a room, say hi, and get on with celebrating my Grandchild's birthday and basically ignore him, but he's too childish to even do that because somehow he thinks he's a victim in all this. He's a narcissistic twat.

I forgave him far too many times, to the point that it was devalued, and he lost all respect for me. When he cheated on me the second time he seriously thought I was going to take him back. That pattern of forgiveness was so set with him that he really thought he could disrespect me so much that it just wouldn't matter. However, worst of all, he treated our son in exactly the same way. To the point that he's lost that relationship too, because my son has also learned that you can only forgive a person so many times before it becomes as meaningless as their sorry.

Indifference is to feel nothing at all. Now to suggest that forgiveness could ever be close to being the same shows a total lack of respect for what it is. These things are not mere words to be used interchangeably. I have not forgiven my ex in any way what-so-ever, and never shall. I am, however, totally indifferent to him. Forgiveness was something I gave, often at a cost to myself. Sorry was something that I heard far too often until it became meaningless, and empty. Then you are left with indifference because there is just nothing left to give, and sometimes this happens with family members too.

Needles

I don't think anything I have said negates your personal experience in any way.

Firstly as you point out in detail repeatedly reconciling with someone who carries on hurting or damaging you, and gives you no basis for trust, is ultimately destructive. In all things there is a big difference between making a mistake and carrying on regardless of the hurt you are causing other people. Please do not take my not quoting examples to mean that I have no personal understanding of this or that I would necessarily seek any sort of reconciliation with someone in similar circumstances.

It is entirely your prerogative not to forgive your ex. You have also clearly described how your indifference is as a result of being ground down and wrung out so that there is no care left, rather than anything you could describe as forgiveness. I absolutely get that and the need we all have for self-protection.

For my part I may choose to "forgive" someone as part of letting go and making sure that what they have done cannot affect me any more, but I cannot do it on behalf of anyone else they have hurt or let down. Indeed dealing with what people do to others you love and can't entirely protect is much more difficult than processing what happens directly to you. In the fourth paragraph of my previous post I indicated that both situations where reconciliation was possible and situations involving moving on without reconciliation required a certain amount of forgiveness on my part. That is very different from respecting, trusting or ever letting that person back into your life.

In any case, whilst I sense your annoyance with me, I am certainly not telling you to make "forgiveness" any part of the way you come to terms with things personally, nor am I making any judgements on how you live your life or how feel about what has happened to you.

I do understand the differences between the concepts of forgiveness, reconciliation and indifference. Just as I am sure the history you described was heavily edited, there are things which I have internalised that I will not be sharing on the Boards. As I suggested in my last post, how I choose to put those things together to deal with any violence, abuse and neglect that has happened to me, or those I care about, may work for me in my life but I don't expect it to work for everybody.

I was never annoyed at you, I was simply putting my point over that forgiveness, and indifference are no where near the same thing. You said it's down to personal interpretation, definition. Well only in so far as the way you actually apply those words to your own emotions, not to what they actually mean. They are not synonyms. You say go on to say 'I think that it is forgiveness when you have no intentions of having anything to do with them but you want to let go of any bitterness you feel, but it can easily be described as moving from a state of hating or blaming someone to feeling indifferent.' It's not the same thing at all. Either you've forgiven the person, and dropped everything, or you are indifferent to them. It can't be described as the you've put it, because they are not the same. I would never forgive someone for something when I was always going to view them with indifference. I would certainly never give someone my forgiveness if I had no intention of having them back in my life, they wouldn't deserve that level of emotion from me.

You use the word hate. It's a very strong word. It's not one I readily give people. It implies a level of thought, energy and emotion not fitting of their status in my life. Hate requires an awful lot of head space, and I don't give that rent free.

I'm not sure I'm getting my point across exactly the way I want to today. I have a full blown Migraine, and whilst I have the concept for it in my head, it doesn't always translate well between brain, hands, and screen, despite editing

Needles

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

For my part I may choose to "forgive" someone as part of letting go and making sure that what they have done cannot affect me any more, but I cannot do it on behalf of anyone else they have hurt or let down. Indeed dealing with what people do to others you love and can't entirely protect is much more difficult than processing what happens directly to you. In the fourth paragraph of my previous post I indicated that both situations where reconciliation was possible and situations involving moving on without reconciliation required a certain amount of forgiveness on my part. That is very different from respecting, trusting or ever letting that person back into your life.

I do understand the differences between the concepts of forgiveness, reconciliation and indifference.

I'm not trying to invalidate your experiences here, or to be on your case, I'm just genuinely curious how you resolve -what seems to me- a huge internal conflict.

To use needles' story as an example:

She dealt with a man (A) who treated her in such a way that reconciliation was impossible and cut him out of her life as a result.

Lets now assume that for the sake of a hypothetical she would later start dating another man (B) who repeated some of the same mistakes as the first one did, early in their relationship. But instead of acting like A when he was caught, man B now really listened to needles, understood why he was wrong, and then went through several difficult steps in order to change his behavior (went to AA, sought counseling, changed core behavior to become more accountable, etc, etc).
So after a while, when needles saw that man B was genuinely changed and sorry, she decided to forgive him, and move on, and they lived happily ever after.

Now as for you, longwayhome, you state that you would have forgiven both man A, as well as man B, in order to move on.
And if that's really the case, then here's what I don't get: If man A gets the same forgiveness that man B worked so hard for, doesn't that diminish the things man B did in importance? If the same forgiveness is handed out whether the perpetrator deserves it or not, how to you -emotionally- distinguish between how great it is that man B worked so hard to earn that forgiveness, and how low it is that man A didn't do anything to deserve it?

You're placing them both on the same level, by granting them the same emotional space of forgiveness, making that space less valuable now than it could have been, because it includes people like man A.

I guess what I don't understand is: why do you need to forgive somebody who's done nothing to deserve it, in order to move on from what he did? Why grant him such an exalted status, when he's done nothing to deserve it? What gain are you getting yourself from forgiving him, which would be missing from just moving on?

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

I get exactly what you mean. It's a very good point.

Forgiving someone so that you feel no bitterness and wish them no harm is a positive psychological benefit for me. You might well call that moving on. For me though there's a distinction between that and something fading to the extent that it doesn't cause so much anguish any more. To an extent it's just about the way you internalise things.

For me forgiveness and trust are two very different things. You can forgive someone but not want to be part of their lifestyle or behaviours. In particular you would not reconcile or try again with a relationship with someone you couldn't trust.