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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 12:37:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

TDC, can you link us to your own definition of 'socialism'?

No, because I don't have my own definition of socialism. I use THE definition, as employed by political scientists and as defined by those who originated and developed the theories of socialism. I could, however link you to a large number of books that would explain it all to you in great detail, but that would entail you reading for a few months, which is beyond your interest, so here is the toddler version for you: The means of production and distribution (i.e. the factories and stores, etc), are owned by those who work in them, not financiers, investors, and stock holders.

Now, there are a number of variants, off-shoots, related philosophies, and outright bastardizations of this basic concept (Social democracy, market socialism, state capitalism, Marxism, Leninism, Marxist-Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, Euro-Communism, etc. etc. etc.)

The thing to keep in mind at all times is that socialism is NOT for government anything, as socialism is opposed to any form of nation-state or government, and is in fact very much an anti-statist free-market libertarian ideology, it differs from capitalism on the question of who should own the wealth produced by the labour of the workers.

Nup. I've read enough about socialism and what it means. Your overview so far has looked shaky enough for me to question it. Till you show your sources, you're just another person claiming authority. Sorry - you don't have it.

ETA: Just read this bit properly:

"The thing to keep in mind at all times is that socialism is NOT for government anything, as socialism is opposed to any form of nation-state or government, and is in fact very much an anti-statist free-market libertarian ideology, it differs from capitalism on the question of who should own the wealth produced by the labour of the workers."

Sweet Jesus ... you are *definitely* going to need to cite your sources. This is socialism *as far as a certain strain of it* is concerned. If you think it's socialism as a whole ... your reading majorly lacks balance.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 8/20/2017 12:47:06 PM >

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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 12:40:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

So under socialism, does the CEO get the same pay as the janitor, or is it ok for him/her to make 3 times the janitor's salary.

If everyone owns everything and pay is equal for all despite intelligence or performance, why would anyone break a sweat, or even bother showing up for work

Where is this la-la land that Dizzy just invented anyway. Somewhere amongst the Big Rock Candy Mountains perhaps?

"In the Big Rock Candy Mountains"

One evening as the sun went down
And the jungle fires were burning,
Down the track came a hobo hiking,
And he said, "Boys, I'm not turning
I'm headed for a land that's far away
Besides the crystal fountains
So come with me, we'll go and see
The Big Rock Candy Mountains
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains,
There's a land that's fair and bright,
Where the handouts grow on bushes
And you sleep out every night.
Where the boxcars all are empty
And the sun shines every day
And the birds and the bees
And the cigarette trees
The lemonade springs
Where the bluebird sings
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
All the cops have wooden legs
And the bulldogs all have rubber teeth
And the hens lay soft-boiled eggs
The farmers' trees are full of fruit
And the barns are full of hay
Oh I'm bound to go
Where there ain't no snow
Where the rain don't fall
The winds don't blow
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
You never change your socks
And the little streams of alcohol
Come trickling down the rocks
The brakemen have to tip their hats
And the railway bulls are blind
There's a lake of stew
And of whiskey too
You can paddle all around it
In a big canoe
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains,
The jails are made of tin.
And you can walk right out again,
As soon as you are in.
There ain't no short-handled shovels,
No axes, saws nor picks,
I'm bound to stay
Where you sleep all day,
Where they hung the jerk
That invented work
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.
....
I'll see you all this coming fall
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqowmHgxVJQ

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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 12:43:50 PM

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Yeah... like it might even cause someone who had intelligence that could be applied in constructive ways to resort to being a barmaid or a woodchopper. I mean... why bother using your brain?

(in reply to BoscoX)

RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 1:11:57 PM

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quote:

Till you show your sources

Fine, here are my sources.
A good place to start is with Plato, then work through the neo-platonists, and remember to cover Mazdak (6th century Persia) and the early church fathers. Then work your way through the various medieval thinkers, such as di Bernadone, etc. Then to the early modern thinkers like Winstanley and More and others. A study of early Islamic social theory would also be useful, as well as those of the native American cultures. then study the various Chartist movements. Once you have done all that, come back and I will give you a list of early proto-socoalists to read.
Then we can get to the actual socialists themselves.

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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 1:19:17 PM

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quote:

So under socialism, does the CEO get the same pay as the janitor, or is it ok for him/her to make 3 times the janitor's salary.

Well, assuming there even is a CEO (something not actually needed under the socialist model), what pay he or she gets is up to the owners, i.e. the people who work there and actually produce the wealth. If they want to pay the janitor more they can. it is entirely up to them who gets paid what.
What you are failing to understand is that socialism is not concerned with details like that, it, like communism and capitalism, is a socio-economic theory that concerns itself with the best method of organizing the the creation and distribution of wealth. That is all they are. While they do touch on the role of government, they are not political theories on how to constitute a government. They are not inherently democratic or totalitarian and can be either or anything in between.

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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 1:32:55 PM

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Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Till you show your sources

Fine, here are my sources.
A good place to start is with Plato, then work through the neo-platonists, and remember to cover Mazdak (6th century Persia) and the early church fathers. Then work your way through the various medieval thinkers, such as di Bernadone, etc. Then to the early modern thinkers like Winstanley and More and others. A study of early Islamic social theory would also be useful, as well as those of the native American cultures. then study the various Chartist movements. Once you have done all that, come back and I will give you a list of early proto-socoalists to read.
Then we can get to the actual socialists themselves.

Some go back as far as Plato, sure. Actually, myself, I think that's unavoidable: "safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato" etc. Mazdak's one of many who's been called a kind of 'proto socialist'. There are a *lot* of roots, right back to antiquity - even cited by Marx, never mind socialists as a group. But socialism didn't really form itself into a political creed till the early 19th Century. In that earliest form it tended to be utopian, fundamentalist and revolutionary. It seems to me that this is where and when you're locating your own idea of socialism. But what of Marx later developments - the humanists like Robert Owen and Charles Fourier? And revisionists like Eduard Bernstein? Most of all, given a special focus on the OP ... the reformist socialists - and particularly after WW2? It's true that social democracy came to supplant democratic socialism towards the end of the 20th century, and social democracy is - for *some* - not 'socialism' at all - but until as late as 1995 even the British Labour Party had common ownership of the means of production as one of its formal aims.

Where did you get the following from? You've said before that you're a communist - and this has shades of anarcho-communism to it. But you're not, surely, going to call it the a major plank of socialism as a whole?

"The thing to keep in mind at all times is that socialism is NOT for government anything, as socialism is opposed to any form of nation-state or government, and is in fact very much an anti-statist free-market libertarian ideology, it differs from capitalism on the question of who should own the wealth produced by the labour of the workers."

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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 1:58:12 PM

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Joined: 11/13/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Yeah... like it might even cause someone who had intelligence that could be applied in constructive ways to resort to being a barmaid or a woodchopper. I mean... why bother using your brain?

I fear you are unaware of it, but your arguments are pure marxism.

Karl Marx: Kritik des Gothaer Programms, 1875

"To each, according to his (her) contribution"

"From each, according to his (her) ability, to each, according to his (her) needs"

Socialism does not mean: To each, equal pay ...

(in reply to tamaka)

RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 2:04:31 PM

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Joined: 3/29/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Yeah... like it might even cause someone who had intelligence that could be applied in constructive ways to resort to being a barmaid or a woodchopper. I mean... why bother using your brain?

I fear you are unaware of it, but your arguments are pure marxism.

Karl Marx: Kritik des Gothaer Programms, 1875

"To each, according to his (her) contribution"

"From each, according to his (her) ability, to each, according to his (her) needs"

Socialism does not mean: To each, equal pay ...

I think you're unaware her arguments were sarcasm.

(in reply to blnymph)

RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 2:08:44 PM

Posts: 5079
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Yeah... like it might even cause someone who had intelligence that could be applied in constructive ways to resort to being a barmaid or a woodchopper. I mean... why bother using your brain?

I fear you are unaware of it, but your arguments are pure marxism.

Karl Marx: Kritik des Gothaer Programms, 1875

"To each, according to his (her) contribution"

"From each, according to his (her) ability, to each, according to his (her) needs"

Socialism does not mean: To each, equal pay ...

I think you're unaware her arguments were sarcasm.

Omg... that's scary that you had to explain that!

(in reply to Nnanji)

RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 2:18:09 PM

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Joined: 3/29/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Yeah... like it might even cause someone who had intelligence that could be applied in constructive ways to resort to being a barmaid or a woodchopper. I mean... why bother using your brain?

I fear you are unaware of it, but your arguments are pure marxism.

Karl Marx: Kritik des Gothaer Programms, 1875

"To each, according to his (her) contribution"

"From each, according to his (her) ability, to each, according to his (her) needs"

Socialism does not mean: To each, equal pay ...

I think you're unaware her arguments were sarcasm.

Omg... that's scary that you had to explain that!

English is not her first language. Yet, she enjoys being a bitch about it even when she is missing a point.

(in reply to tamaka)

RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 2:28:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Yeah... like it might even cause someone who had intelligence that could be applied in constructive ways to resort to being a barmaid or a woodchopper. I mean... why bother using your brain?

I fear you are unaware of it, but your arguments are pure marxism.

Karl Marx: Kritik des Gothaer Programms, 1875

"To each, according to his (her) contribution"

"From each, according to his (her) ability, to each, according to his (her) needs"

Socialism does not mean: To each, equal pay ...

I think you're unaware her arguments were sarcasm.

Omg... that's scary that you had to explain that!

English is not her first language. Yet, she enjoys being a bitch about it even when she is missing a point.

Oh... ok.

(in reply to Nnanji)

RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 2:34:03 PM

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Well that '..from each according to ability to each according to needs' idea pretty much sets up a permanent welfare system as far as i can tell. I mean, i'm a brilliant CEO with 2 kids so i should get say $60k a year (just say $20,00 per person as a hypothetical example). And my neighbor next door who is a dog walker with 8 kids should get $180k per year.

(in reply to tamaka)

RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 5:09:36 PM

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Joined: 3/29/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Well that '..from each according to ability to each according to needs' idea pretty much sets up a permanent welfare system as far as i can tell. I mean, i'm a brilliant CEO with 2 kids so i should get say $60k a year (just say $20,00 per person as a hypothetical example). And my neighbor next door who is a dog walker with 8 kids should get $180k per year.

That's pretty much why socialism will never work. It doesn't take workers long to figure out they get paid the same whether they sleep or sweat and the political bosses will always take the gravy.

(in reply to tamaka)

RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 5:14:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

...and the political bosses will always take the gravy.

And grow fat robbing the communal gardens

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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 5:24:28 PM

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and enforce their workers paradise at the barrel of a gun.

(in reply to BoscoX)

RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 5:25:08 PM

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Joined: 3/29/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

...and the political bosses will always take the gravy.

And grow fat robbing the communal gardens

You know...between you and me (make sure nobody else reads this)...I started this thread because the mental patient is always saying Venezuela is not socialist only the Scandinavians are socialists and I wanted to see just what other people thought of Scandinavian socialism. I even had one participant asking me if I really understood what I was posting because what I posted was reinforcing her argument that it wasn't a socialist government. I've been laughing my ass of since post one. Of course if the mental patient could, he'd say this wasn't one of the countries he meant.

(in reply to BoscoX)

RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 6:04:04 PM

Posts: 10663
Joined: 12/10/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

...and the political bosses will always take the gravy.

And grow fat robbing the communal gardens

You know...between you and me (make sure nobody else reads this)...I started this thread because the mental patient is always saying Venezuela is not socialist only the Scandinavians are socialists and I wanted to see just what other people thought of Scandinavian socialism. I even had one participant asking me if I really understood what I was posting because what I posted was reinforcing her argument that it wasn't a socialist government. I've been laughing my ass of since post one. Of course if the mental patient could, he'd say this wasn't one of the countries he meant.

It's been a regular barrel of monkeys

As I wrote in post #7, apparently socialism has never been tried

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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 8:01:58 PM

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quote:

Where did you get the following from?

Come back when you have done your reading, and I will give you the next steps. I told you it would take you months of reading.

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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/20/2017 8:51:31 PM

Posts: 5079
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Where did you get the following from?

Come back when you have done your reading, and I will give you the next steps. I told you it would take you months of reading.

Well this looks like an interesting read:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/9329881/Elinor-Ostrom.html

Also, surprisingly, the route Trump chose regarding the global warming issue.

(in reply to ThatDizzyChick)

RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/21/2017 5:11:03 AM

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Joined: 11/1/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
...if the mental patient could...

his not being here, along with Thompson and wicked, is a breath of fresh air.

(in reply to Nnanji)

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