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Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 1:29:58 PM   
Musicmystery


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Charlottesville showed that our First Amendment jurisprudence hasn’t reckoned with our Second Amendment reality.

When U.S. District Judge Glen E. Conrad rejected Charlottesville, Virginia’s attempt to relocate Saturday’s white nationalist rally, he wrote that “merely moving [the] demonstration to another park will not avoid a clash of ideologies” between demonstrators and counter-protesters. He also acknowledged that “a change in the location of the demonstration would not eliminate the need for members of the City’s law enforcement, fire, and emergency medical services personnel to appear at Emancipation Park. Instead, it would necessitate having personnel present at two locations in the City.”

As it turned out, the nightmare that unfolded on Saturday in this small college town involved a great deal more than an ideological clash and demanded far more police protection than was available. Dozens of white nationalists showed up toting semi-automatic weapons, as did some counter-protesters, making it all but impossible for police to intervene when violence erupted. In short order, peaceful protesters were forced to hide as armed rioters attacked one another with clubs, smoke bombs, and pepper spray.

Complaints abound that law enforcement officers looked on from the sidelines as the brutality quickly escalated into a crisis. The tragedy culminated in the death of 32-year-old Heather Heyer when a white supremacist rammed his car into a group of peaceful protesters.

Seen in isolation, Conrad’s order was grounded in solid First Amendment doctrine: Charlottesville could not, he ruled, relocate the racist demonstrators “based on the content of [their] speech.” This is textbook law, but one is left to wonder whether it takes into account armed white supremacists invading a city with promises of confrontation. Conrad’s decision seems to have been issued in a vacuum, one in which Second Amendment open-carry rights either swallowed First Amendment doctrine altogether or were simply wished away, for after-the-fact analysis. The judge failed to answer the central question: When demonstrators plan to carry guns and cause fights, does the government have a compelling interest in regulating their expressive conduct more carefully than it’d be able to otherwise? This is not any one judge’s fault. It is a failure of our First Amendment jurisprudence to reckon with our Second Amendment reality.

Charlottesville proves that this issue is hardly theoretical anymore. In his order, Conrad chose to exclude from his First Amendment analysis the very strong possibility that demonstrators would carry weapons. (The city police warned the court that hundreds of protesters would bring firearms and that militia members would be in attendance.) But, ironically, by protecting the free speech rights of the white supremacists, Conrad may have ultimately suppressed speech by ensuring an armed confrontation between the neo-Nazis and the counter-protesters would break out and that police would be powerless to stop it until blood was spilled. Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe later claimed that the militia members “had better equipment than our State Police”—and that their weapons prevented law enforcement from imposing order and protecting peaceful protesters. While we don’t yet know the full details of what happened or how, the governor’s statement suggested that the presence of large quantities of lethal guns had in fact effectively silenced the many people who’d assembled to peacefully express their opposition to racism.

This conflict between the right to bear arms and the right to free speech is nothing new, but the sudden surge in white nationalist activism has made it painfully obvious that, in the public square, the right to bear arms tends to trump the right to free speech. Confederate sympathizers are bringing weapons of war to their demonstrations—just last month, in fact, Ku Klux Klansmen carried guns to a protest in an adjacent Charlottesville park. Forty-five states, including Virginia, allow some form of open carry. So long as armed demonstrators comply with their permits and do not openly threaten anyone, their protests are perfectly legal.



But of course, the presence of a gun itself dramatically heightens the odds that somebody is going to get shot. And, as Saturday proved, the presence of many guns, particularly the sort that can kill many people in very little time, may dissuade law enforcement from stepping in when a protest gets out of hand. The result is an alarming form of censorship: Nonviolent demonstrators lose their right to assemble and express their ideas because the police are too apprehensive to shield them from violence. The right to bear arms overrides the right to free speech. And when protesters dress like militia members and the police are confused about who is with whom, chaos is inevitable.

This problem is especially acute in public areas like Charlottesville’s Emancipation Park and the surrounding streets and walkways. The Supreme Court recently reminded us that parks and sidewalks “occupy a special position in terms of First Amendment protection because of their historic role as sites for discussion and debate.” These “traditional public fora” have, according to the court, “immemorially been held in trust for the use of the public and, time out of mind, have been used for purposes of assembly, communicating thoughts between citizens, and discussing public questions.”

So the government doesn’t get to bar neo-Nazis from marching in a park just because they’re neo-Nazis. But what about neo-Nazis who are toting around assault weapons? As the world saw on Saturday, armed agitators can quickly turn a public forum into a public brawl and hijack peaceful assembly. Current First Amendment doctrine praises the open debate that is supposed to occur in our streets and parks. But it is poorly equipped to help courts apply the law when bullets may accompany the free exchange of ideas.

The seminal case protecting the rights of white nationalists to march in the streets is National Socialist Party of America v. Skokie, in which the Supreme Court ruled that the government could not bar neo-Nazis from marching through a Jewish neighborhood in Illinois.* Most civil libertarians (us included) believe the court got the Skokie case right. But it’s increasingly clear that Skokie can’t always help courts figure out how to deal with a post-Heller, post–“stand your ground” white nationalist protest. Whatever the courts were attempting to protect in the Skokie case wasn’t protected in Charlottesville. The marchers in Skokie didn’t promise to bring guns and armed militias to protect themselves.

Moreover, the “threat” posed by Nazis marching in Illinois, while symbolic and terrifying, especially in a town of Holocaust survivors, was not the threat that we are coming to your town with the power to kill you. Second Amendment enthusiasts will tell you that they don’t intend to deliver any message of this sort when they parade with semi-automatic weapons. Their message is merely that guns are outstanding. But one of the lessons of Charlottesville 2017 is that sometimes, when 500 people promise to come to a “protest” with guns to hurt people they want to see extinguished, they plan to do just that.



It’s become amply clear that open carry in Charlottesville led to little discussion and lots of fighting. Indeed, open carry seemed to guarantee that fewer people could speak and that the police had no choice but to wait until there was actual bleeding to call off the rally. If bringing guns to a speech event pushes the line for incitement past the point where people have gone mad, it’s time to have another look at the intersection of speech and open carry.

Rallies with guns cannot be treated, for First Amendment purposes, in the same fashion as rallies with no guns. When the police are literally too afraid of armed protesters to stop a melee, First Amendment values are diminished; discussion is supplanted by disorder and even death, and conversations about “time, place, and manner” seem antiquated and trite. In his analysis, Conrad treated today’s white nationalists like the neo-Nazis who planned to march through Skokie.* That was a mistake. Ideas may not be able to hurt us, but assault weapons surely can. That’s why the white supremacists who marched through Charlottesville this weekend carried guns instead of Pokémon cards. It’s perfectly reasonable for courts to consider the speech-suppressing potential of guns when evaluating a city’s efforts to keep the peace. And it will be perfectly lethal if they fail to take the Second Amendment reality into account, as they reflect upon the values we seek to protect with the First.

More: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/08/the_first_and_second_amendments_clashed_in_charlottesville_the_guns_won.html
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RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 3:37:17 PM   
LTE


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quote:

But what about neo-Nazis who are toting around assault weapons?


Or Christians? Or paganists? Or nudists? These pigeon holes we like to put people in are based on our beliefs about them and sometimes we forget they are Americans. The neo-Nazis are Americans with the same right to assemble as non-neo-Nazis (whew) even if they carry guns they are legally permitted to carry for protection, just like you, like me, like any American. Since we all have the same rights then we as American's must endorse their right to carry and to assemble and protest. Additionally and not to belabor an obvious point, being a neo-Nazi American does not mean you lose your right to carry arms to protect yourself or to assemble even if you scare someone, even, as you suggest, the police. Not that I believe that. I do believe the facts. They are Americans. They had a permit to carry arms and to assemble there and protest as American citizens. The police did not protect their civil right to do so. Aside from the facts, the Justice Department under Sessions investigation into Civil Rights violations during that episode will possibly find your neo-Nazis Americans had their civil rights violated just as the black civil rights marchers did in Selma except in this case the attacks were made by organized out of town mobs of neo-Communist Leftist while the Police did nothing to stop them.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 3:51:44 PM   
bounty44


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well said...

and no doubt you are now a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer in the "minds" of the left.

(in reply to LTE)
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RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 3:56:26 PM   
Lucylastic


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LTE is just deficient....his originating sock was the same

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RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 3:58:36 PM   
LTE


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You know you want me.

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RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 4:22:03 PM   
Lucylastic


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only in an urn.

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RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 4:28:25 PM   
jlf1961


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Funny thing about open carry laws, they do have provisions in them in where and even when open carry is not allowed.

Take Texas for instance.

Businesses can put notices on their doors citing the provision in both the open carry and cancelled carry laws that allow them not to allow weapons to be carried into their establishments.

City parks have similar notices, as do some state parks, court houses, bars, restaurants where alcohol is served, schools, child care centers etc.

And the law has withstood court challenge.

Most other states have similar provisions in their open carry laws.

But as pointed out in the op, both sides had firearms, which to me makes it clear that both sides had the clear intention to either look for or start trouble.

However, it seems that the only people being blamed are the white supremacists, and no mention of the counter protesting groups that were also armed.

Further, I see nothing in the constitution that any clause or amendment carries more weight than any other clause or amendment, thus the first amendment is just as strong as the second.

However, neither side that brought weapons are indicative of the entirety of American gun owners.

Both sides were issued permits for "Peaceful Demonstrations."

When you come armed there is no intent to be peaceful.

It is also clear that none of the groups stayed in the venues to which they were permitted, thus all were in violation of their permits.

Individuals from both sides inflicted harm on individuals on the other side, and of course a white supremacist used his car as a weapon that killed one person and injured others.

I fault President Trump in not using the same term he has applied to the same act carried out in other countries by Muslims, that it was an act of terrorism.

I fault both groups for not keeping to the venues permitted.

I fault both sides for instigating violence, which invalidated their permits, and thus I feel that the organizers on both sides should be held criminally accountable for starting a riot.

And above all, I hold the liberal asswipes accountable for demanding that a statue be removed that for god knows how long stood with little or no attention from anyone other than the birds that perched on it and covered it with shit.

The worst part of this is that no one is going to blame the movement that started this crap.

And it was not the KKK or the Neo Nazis. It was a bunch of liberal idiots who are offended by a fucking large chunk of metal or stone.

And by the way, it is the power of the second amendment that basically insures that the first will never be taken away.

But, the simple fact is that when a bunch of people show up at a 'peaceful demonstration' with bats, clubs, pepper spray and guns, their intent is anything but peaceful, I dont care if they are counter protesting neo Nazis or not.

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RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 4:37:24 PM   
Made2Obey


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The notion that the Charlottesville police were intimidated by the marchers' guns doesn't seem plausible since prior to the actual clash the police were forcibly herding the armed marchers out of Emancipation Park and into the street where counter protesters awaited, and then stood down under orders of the mayor once the clash had begun.

The other concept that just doesn't carry water is that the marchers went to the protest armed in order to start trouble. Since when does a group of armed people intent on trouble NOT fire their weapons, even when being attacked by the same people that they supposedly were looking to clash with? The city of Charlottesville did not have to clean up a single spent brass cartridge, not one!

The truth of it is that the marchers were like a lot of Americans and just feel naked without a gun. They carry guns nearly everywhere, but not with the intent to use them. Psychologically the gun is akin to a child's security blanket.

But boy do we have a lot of mindreaders in this country who are trying to convince us all that those bad gun owners intended to shoot the place up long before they even arrived in Charlottesville, and then mysteriously didn't.

(in reply to LTE)
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RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 5:26:12 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

Rallies with guns cannot be treated, for First Amendment purposes, in the same fashion as rallies with no guns.
They have to be. RTFC

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RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 5:31:17 PM   
Real0ne


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damn right they have to be to be constitutional, otherwise its state usurpation of RESERVED rights preserved in the constitution and state tyranny.





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RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 5:32:47 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Made2Obey

The notion that the Charlottesville police were intimidated by the marchers' guns doesn't seem plausible since prior to the actual clash the police were forcibly herding the armed marchers out of Emancipation Park and into the street where counter protesters awaited, and then stood down under orders of the mayor once the clash had begun.

The other concept that just doesn't carry water is that the marchers went to the protest armed in order to start trouble. Since when does a group of armed people intent on trouble NOT fire their weapons, even when being attacked by the same people that they supposedly were looking to clash with? The city of Charlottesville did not have to clean up a single spent brass cartridge, not one!

The truth of it is that the marchers were like a lot of Americans and just feel naked without a gun. They carry guns nearly everywhere, but not with the intent to use them. Psychologically the gun is akin to a child's security blanket.

But boy do we have a lot of mindreaders in this country who are trying to convince us all that those bad gun owners intended to shoot the place up long before they even arrived in Charlottesville, and then mysteriously didn't.


and they should be sued for constitutional violations.

yeh until they were rallied aginst the japs and adolf, then they worshiped men with guns



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Made2Obey)
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RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 5:33:31 PM   
BoscoX


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Rallies with guns cannot be treated, for First Amendment purposes, in the same fashion as rallies with no guns.
They have to be. RTFC


How about rallies with Molotov cocktails, bricks and crowbars, like at Berkeley and other venues where leftist mobs prevent conservatives from speaking or attending political events, and the police are ordered by Democrat mayors to stand down





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RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 5:34:44 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


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You're not understanding shit again.

Sad.



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RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 5:35:52 PM   
Real0ne


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none of that shit falls under arms

I am questioning if it was ordered shut down because the neo libs violated their permit and went to throw rocks at the nazis

the neo libs that are doing damage are the real terrorists here and the press and gubmint is passing the neo libs terrorism off as a protest that got a little out of hand despite falling under the definition of terrorism in every respect


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to BoscoX)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 5:46:24 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Businesses can put notices on their doors citing the provision in both the open carry and cancelled carry laws that allow them not to allow weapons to be carried into their establishments.

City parks have similar notices, as do some state parks, court houses, bars, restaurants where alcohol is served, schools, child care centers etc.

And the law has withstood court challenge.

Most other states have similar provisions in their open carry laws.





I dont give a fuck what their intent is, the letter of the law is SHALL NOT INFRINGE, the gubmint has no legitimate authority to ban arms from any ESTABLISHMENT UNDER ITS CHARTER. PERIOD.

Now if there is such a thing as a business that is not under the gubmint charter then yes they have the right to ban carrying arms in the personal establishment.

A home would come under that rule if it were not taxed but even a home comes under gubmint purview.

All titles in teh united states are split titles, equity/legal, way beyond anyones comprehension here.



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 6:05:58 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LTE

quote:

But what about neo-Nazis who are toting around assault weapons?


Or Christians? Or paganists? Or nudists? These pigeon holes we like to put people in are based on our beliefs about them and sometimes we forget they are Americans. The neo-Nazis are Americans with the same right to assemble as non-neo-Nazis (whew) even if they carry guns they are legally permitted to carry for protection, just like you, like me, like any American. Since we all have the same rights then we as American's must endorse their right to carry and to assemble and protest. Additionally and not to belabor an obvious point, being a neo-Nazi American does not mean you lose your right to carry arms to protect yourself or to assemble even if you scare someone, even, as you suggest, the police. Not that I believe that. I do believe the facts. They are Americans. They had a permit to carry arms and to assemble there and protest as American citizens. The police did not protect their civil right to do so. Aside from the facts, the Justice Department under Sessions investigation into Civil Rights violations during that episode will possibly find your neo-Nazis Americans had their civil rights violated just as the black civil rights marchers did in Selma except in this case the attacks were made by organized out of town mobs of neo-Communist Leftist while the Police did nothing to stop them.

It is illegal to tote around assault weapons, and virtually impossible to legally own one.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to LTE)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 6:09:37 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Funny thing about open carry laws, they do have provisions in them in where and even when open carry is not allowed.

Take Texas for instance.

Businesses can put notices on their doors citing the provision in both the open carry and cancelled carry laws that allow them not to allow weapons to be carried into their establishments.

City parks have similar notices, as do some state parks, court houses, bars, restaurants where alcohol is served, schools, child care centers etc.

And the law has withstood court challenge.

Most other states have similar provisions in their open carry laws.

But as pointed out in the op, both sides had firearms, which to me makes it clear that both sides had the clear intention to either look for or start trouble.

However, it seems that the only people being blamed are the white supremacists, and no mention of the counter protesting groups that were also armed.

Further, I see nothing in the constitution that any clause or amendment carries more weight than any other clause or amendment, thus the first amendment is just as strong as the second.

However, neither side that brought weapons are indicative of the entirety of American gun owners.

Both sides were issued permits for "Peaceful Demonstrations."

When you come armed there is no intent to be peaceful.

It is also clear that none of the groups stayed in the venues to which they were permitted, thus all were in violation of their permits.

Individuals from both sides inflicted harm on individuals on the other side, and of course a white supremacist used his car as a weapon that killed one person and injured others.

I fault President Trump in not using the same term he has applied to the same act carried out in other countries by Muslims, that it was an act of terrorism.

I fault both groups for not keeping to the venues permitted.

I fault both sides for instigating violence, which invalidated their permits, and thus I feel that the organizers on both sides should be held criminally accountable for starting a riot.

And above all, I hold the liberal asswipes accountable for demanding that a statue be removed that for god knows how long stood with little or no attention from anyone other than the birds that perched on it and covered it with shit.

The worst part of this is that no one is going to blame the movement that started this crap.

And it was not the KKK or the Neo Nazis. It was a bunch of liberal idiots who are offended by a fucking large chunk of metal or stone.

And by the way, it is the power of the second amendment that basically insures that the first will never be taken away.

But, the simple fact is that when a bunch of people show up at a 'peaceful demonstration' with bats, clubs, pepper spray and guns, their intent is anything but peaceful, I dont care if they are counter protesting neo Nazis or not.

Good post, both should go away. And you are correct that the "left" is getting a pass her, but there are no good guys.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 6:10:31 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Rallies with guns cannot be treated, for First Amendment purposes, in the same fashion as rallies with no guns.
They have to be. RTFC


How about rallies with Molotov cocktails, bricks and crowbars, like at Berkeley and other venues where leftist mobs prevent conservatives from speaking or attending political events, and the police are ordered by Democrat mayors to stand down





you mean where they were met by violent white supremacists, and rw thugs?
You loved the violence I seem to remember.


_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
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(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
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(in reply to BoscoX)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 6:11:53 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Made2Obey

The notion that the Charlottesville police were intimidated by the marchers' guns doesn't seem plausible since prior to the actual clash the police were forcibly herding the armed marchers out of Emancipation Park and into the street where counter protesters awaited, and then stood down under orders of the mayor once the clash had begun.

The other concept that just doesn't carry water is that the marchers went to the protest armed in order to start trouble. Since when does a group of armed people intent on trouble NOT fire their weapons, even when being attacked by the same people that they supposedly were looking to clash with? The city of Charlottesville did not have to clean up a single spent brass cartridge, not one!

The truth of it is that the marchers were like a lot of Americans and just feel naked without a gun. They carry guns nearly everywhere, but not with the intent to use them. Psychologically the gun is akin to a child's security blanket.

But boy do we have a lot of mindreaders in this country who are trying to convince us all that those bad gun owners intended to shoot the place up long before they even arrived in Charlottesville, and then mysteriously didn't.


They may both have been armed because they thought the other would start something.


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Made2Obey)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Charlottesville: Guns vs. Free Speech - 8/18/2017 6:13:26 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


none of that shit falls under arms

I am questioning if it was ordered shut down because the neo libs violated their permit and went to throw rocks at the nazis

the neo libs that are doing damage are the real terrorists here and the press and gubmint is passing the neo libs terrorism off as a protest that got a little out of hand despite falling under the definition of terrorism in every respect


Arms = weapons, so they do.


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 20
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