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RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 3:26:07 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Frankly, I had to skip the 'spiritual' rape part of the discussion. I don't agree that the word is correct for the context and there is no legal definition that applies to 'rape' of the spirit or the soul.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
I work on guitars, on the side, for friends. I wouldn't call it a "business", but word gets around ...

So, two (perhaps three) questions follow:

Are you collecting sales tax?

Do you have a business license?

Do you fall in the category of a non-profit?


The business license in particular establishes that you will comply with city, county, state, and federal law including fair business practices and compliance with any non-discrimination laws.

quote:

I work on maybe ten guitars a month, mostly, it's simple things, but I just had a guy contact me, wanting me to do some custom work on a guitar. He wants me to strip it, sand it, paint it and re-finish it.

In light of the second quote I re-posted, I started thinking: What if this guy had asked me to paint "Satan is Lord" on his guitar? I'll do his set up, adjust his Floyd Rose, do all the customizing work, but I'm not painting that.

So, you are saying that you wouldn't paint that for anyone, no matter WHO commissioned the job? All good.

Would you paint a certain slogan for one person, but not another?

quote:

I realize it's a bit of a stretch, but it isn't that far removed from a cake decorator who believes homosexuality is a sin, putting two little men cake toppers on top of a cake. It's that decorator saying/being forced to say: "Same-sex marriage is okay/acceptable/not a sin"

I'm a little iffy about this because a part of this case is the baker saying that he endorses the message if he makes the cake. I'm not sure that's correct. It's not like the cake is going to be rolled out at the reception with a big sign that says "Made by Masterpiece Cake Shop".

quote:

So, neither one of us should be allowed to earn a little extra cash? That seems like a rather extreme punishment for not spouting the party line.

Actually, you're not supposed to be 'earning a little extra cash' on the side.

quote:

I wonder ... if a Christian couple came to a gay cake decorator and wanted a Leviticus quote (you know which one) put on their cake, should the decorator be forced to do it?

We're right back to the same thing. Would the baker do it for one customer, but not another? If the shop owner would do it for me, but not for you, and there is no legal cause to refuse you as a customer, we have to ask why you were denied service.

quote:

I wouldn't want him forced to do it. I can imagine how hurtful/stressful it would be, asking that decorator to do something that makes their entire inner being scream out in disdain.

Is it also not hurtful to be treated like a second class citizen? That you can't purchase the same product available to everyone else?

quote:

I guess that's the difference; one side wants to force their way of life on people with whom they disagree. The other side just wants to not be forced to listen to their inner being scream out in disdain.

Or, it could be said that one particular religion, or even several religions, wants their beliefs to be written into law. "Religious beliefs" are permissible reason to allow people to discriminate.







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Profile   Post #: 261
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 7:01:40 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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For the foreseeable future, my only comment on this thread of lofty goals will be: This.

Pact, should you wish to engage me on this issue and start another thread to do so, I would probably respond, but I read your response/questions and I can tell you that part of my response will be about how you are moving goal posts.





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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

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Profile   Post #: 262
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 8:16:04 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


For the foreseeable future, my only comment on this thread of lofty goals will be: This.

Pact, should you wish to engage me on this issue and start another thread to do so, I would probably respond, but I read your response/questions and I can tell you that part of my response will be about how you are moving goal posts.





Fair enough, though I will admit being confused as to why you felt that particular link from earlier in the thread applies to what I said in my prior comments.

I probably won't be starting another thread to discuss the same case. Frankly, we (and by "we," I mean all of us who have weighed in on the baker/couple case on one thread or another) have all said our piece on the matter. I'm doubtful that any of us have anything 'new' to say until the case is decided and then we'll be discussing reactionary comments.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 263
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 8:29:32 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Fair enough, though I will admit being confused as to why you felt that particular link from earlier in the thread applies to what I said in my prior comments.

I probably won't be starting another thread to discuss the same case. Frankly, we (and by "we," I mean all of us who have weighed in on the baker/couple case on one thread or another) have all said our piece on the matter. I'm doubtful that any of us have anything 'new' to say until the case is decided and then we'll be discussing reactionary comments.




That link was NOT directed at you. As I said, it will be my only comment on this lofty thread for the foreseeable future. At this point, to me, it's all the matters; pointing out the hypocrisy and double standards employed herein.





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A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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Profile   Post #: 264
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 10:33:45 AM   
JVoV


Posts: 3228
Joined: 3/9/2015
Status: offline 		What DS is saying is that he is going to go pout in a corner now because the mean ol' gays have access to legal representation.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 265
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 10:43:35 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
Dishonorable, defamatory, scumbag

Not to mention: the death of lofty goals:









< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 12/14/2017 10:56:37 AM >

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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Profile   Post #: 266
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 11:52:17 AM   
JVoV


Posts: 3228
Joined: 3/9/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
Reasonably? It is "rape" of a spiritual sort, as I explained.
It's Christians, being forced into participating in what they consider to be a sin at the point of a gun, not unlike forced sodomy.
When you can listen, reasonably, perhaps the nation can start to heal.

I think given today's environment, rape is a word that should not be used lightly, or wrongly.
If any part of baking a cake goes against a person's spiritual beliefs, then that person should not be own a bakery.
If there is a requested design that goes against a person's beliefs, then they should be free to refuse to do that, and then tell the customer what they are willing and able to do. And if the customer is really set on the particular design, then they are free to look for another bakery to do it.
No one has forced the bakery to create and design wedding cakes at all. But Colorado law does require that such services be provided equally to all customers.


Did the couple request a cake celebrating a gay wedding? If so, then there is your "design" that goes against the baker's beliefs.



That would be the reason Colorado has enacted protection against such things, by classifying sexual orientation as a protected class. Gender discrimination is already against federal law.

So if you cannot discriminate against a single male or female, how can you discriminate against a matching set of either?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 267
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 11:55:24 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Dishonorable, defamatory, scumbag

Not to mention: the death of lofty goals:










_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to JVoV)
Profile   Post #: 268
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 12:19:05 PM   
JVoV


Posts: 3228
Joined: 3/9/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


Dishonorable, defamatory, scumbag

Not to mention: the death of lofty goals:










The Foundation for Moral Law has also become involved in the case.

A bit of trivia for everyone: The Foundation for Moral Law is a Montgomery-based legal foundation founded by rejected U.S. Senate candidate Roy Moore. Moore’s wife, Kayla Moore, is president of the foundation.

Google it. I could not make this shit up if I tried.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 269
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 12:29:32 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		Dishonorable, defamatory, scumbag

Not to mention: the death of lofty goals:










_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to JVoV)
Profile   Post #: 270
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 12:49:46 PM   
JVoV


Posts: 3228
Joined: 3/9/2015
Status: offline 		You have no intentions of working with the stated goals anyway, and proved that from the start of this thread.

Even if the couple left the bakery and immediately went to their closest ACLU office, they have every right to seek legal advice and representation, as well as being informed of their legal rights and options on how to proceed.

So big fucking deal.

The ACLU didn't decide the matter. The Colorado Civil Rights Commission did. Deal with it.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 271
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 12:54:48 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
Dishonorable, defamatory, scumbag

Not to mention: the death of lofty goals:










_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to JVoV)
Profile   Post #: 272
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 12:58:07 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Then what do you believe should be done to punish homosexuals?


I believe Bounty is arguing that the faiths that are based on the OT should be putting them to death, if they are going to be true to their religious texts. Christians, however, shouldn't be putting them to death, but, probably pray for them, and let God do the judging.



It seems to me all present day prohibitions to homosexuality in the Christian Religion originate from Leviticus. It is very specific in describing the act and the punishment. Why should it be permitted to condemn the act and not demand the punishment if the word of God is to be followed? Some of the wannabe Christian scholars have been posting verse to justify their discrimination... well then follow their God's command.

One poster even said he only believes certain passages in the Bible that he found reasonable proof of validity...Well I challenge him to show proof of validity in Leviticus to back his discrimination against gays. It bugs me when people pick and choose different parts of the Bible to follow...as long as it does not interfere with their lives and agrees with their discriminating views.

If that damn baker wants to discriminate because of his religion then by God he should also be protesting to have the death penalty for queers.

Butch

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 273
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 1:43:18 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Not really, no. For the record: I object to you, trying to assign a motive to me.

I haven't "hung a shingle". I did some work for a couple of friends. They told their friends they were pleased with my work. Word spreads. I have a "shop", but it was always for my own private use.


I would not wish to impose anything on you personally. I made the suggestion "for the sake of argument." What I infer from your reply is that you do not wish to discuss the issue as a public accommodation, which the Courts have used in maintaining the constitutionality of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

quote:

Once again, I object to your haughty tone and assuming things in my life which you have no possible way of knowing.


You inferred a haughtiness in my writing. Are you being overly defensive or again employing a dodge on the issue of public accommodation? The title of your thread suggests that you seek a dialogue but your responses suggest that you wish to bat away any discussion. So for the sake of dialogue in the case of the doctor above, and allowing that the doctor has his religious creed on display, would the doctor have any excuse (in your thinking) to deny treatment to the black man?



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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Profile   Post #: 274
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 1:43:39 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

It seems to me all present day prohibitions to homosexuality in the Christian Religion originate from Leviticus. It is very specific in describing the act and the punishment. Why should it be permitted to condemn the act and not demand the punishment if the word of God is to be followed?



quote:


Matthew 5:17-20Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

18 For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.



and:

quote:


John 8:6-8Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

7 When therefore they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said to them: He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.



I'm curious: Why would you want Christians to call for the death of homosexuals?





_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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Profile   Post #: 275
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 1:59:05 PM   
JVoV


Posts: 3228
Joined: 3/9/2015
Status: offline 		http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/masterpiece-cakeshop-ltd-v-colorado-civil-rights-commn/

A complete rundown of all actions taken in this case, once it got to SCOTUS.

You'll note that no brief has been filed by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU).

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 276
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 2:39:03 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline

Dishonorable, defamatory, scumbag

Not to mention: the death of lofty goals:






Two ACLU lawyers listed on the original court filing.




_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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Profile   Post #: 277
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 2:40:55 PM   
JVoV


Posts: 3228
Joined: 3/9/2015
Status: offline 		Not the original court filing, liarmouth.

COMPLAINANTS’ RESPONSE IN OPPOSITION TO RESPONDENTS’ CROSS MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT

Maybe you should read the links you provide, huh?

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Profile   Post #: 278
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 2:46:16 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline

Which was NOT the claim I originally made, you Dishonorable, defamatory, scumbag

Not to mention: the death of lofty goals:










_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to JVoV)
Profile   Post #: 279
RE: An American dialogue - 12/14/2017 2:49:52 PM   
JVoV


Posts: 3228
Joined: 3/9/2015
Status: offline 		You said "Two ACLU lawyers listed on the original court filing" and provided a link to something other than the original court filing.

You're a tricky dicky liarmouth huh?

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Profile   Post #: 280
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