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An American dialogue - 12/2/2017 3:29:59 PM

JVoV

Posts: 3226
Joined: 3/9/2015
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Instead of hijacking the Michael Flynn thread, I'm going to carry this part of the conversation here, to a new space.

My hope is that topics can be brought up without our prospective talking points, and without personal or party-based attacks, in order for more of us to not only understand facts of whatever issue is currently at play, because there are so many, but also to understand the other side's views when presented rationally.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

In one way or another, our country needs to heal. We absolutely must find common ground, even on the most controversial issues, and make progress towards resolving them.

When a multi-felon illegal alien can shoot a woman, and it's considered a "win" for the left to get him acquitted of any serious charges... When the "news" is demonstrably mostly propaganda, and the left LIKES it that way... When it is practically a crime in and of itself to be a straight white male... Etc... I can safely say, we won't be finding any common ground any time soon

Accusations like this don't really help matters, and we're seeing them on every front from both sides. This is exactly why I say that it seems that there are far too many that seek to cause even more strife among us.

Bosco, you're perhaps one of the most ironwilled right wing posters around. When you can avoid making the knee-jerk hateful response, and present a clear headed post free of talking points, you're also one of the most well-spoken. I hope that you can do that in this thread, so that an open, respectful dialogue can happen.

It is never a "win" when an innocent bystander loses their life. And there can never be justice for that, only state retribution. Every time something horrible happens, we have to look at the reality of the situation and determine the course of action to best prevent similar events in the future. There is rarely a one-line solution, rarely a one-party solution, and not all solutions have to start with the government.

It is a win when every person in this country is given adequate representation in a criminal proceeding. I don't believe that this murderer (let's call it like it is) had a right to be in our country at all, and I am honestly uncertain that any of the protections of the Constitution should apply to him. I'll look at case law in a bit to find out where that comes from. I'm also curious about the defense attorney(s); whether it was a public defender or a private attorney trying to make a name for himself or herself.

It is horrible when the prosecutors tasked with seeking convictions for any crime fail to do that job, especially when lives have been lost. Sadly, that job was likely made more difficult by presidential candidates politicizing the case, by influencing the jury pool. But can the prosecution team themselves look at this case with their only regret being the lack of a conviction for wrongful death? Was the case given a strong enough attorney? Enough time and attention by the DA's office? Can the judge be shown as unfavorable and biased against the prosecution at all, or have a proven record of being biased? Is the DA's office properly funded, properly staffed, and fully capable of handling the job? Was there enough evidence to support a murder conviction before that charge was brought before the court?

I agree with your quotations regarding "news". Our news is being delivered by media conglomerates, and stories are selected and presented for each newscast to get ratings. This means that far too much is sensationalized, while important events are barely given any air time at all. And we are now finding out just who some of the people are that we have trusted to bring us our news and entertainment on a daily basis. This makes it that much more important that we as Americans become more varied about where we get our information from, to see the bigger picture. As you pointed out with ABC in another thread, networks and publications alike are usually slow about issuing a retraction or correction to a story they got wrong in some way. When it does happen, it's often hidden and not given as much attention as the original story did. A public backlash is the only answer for that, to make these news organizations hold themselves to higher standards in journalism. But it cannot be fixed by politicians posting inaccurate tweets or spreading misinformation in any way. I do believe that we should hold our politicians to the same, if not a higher standard of accuracy when speaking about current events. And perhaps they should all only speak about topics and events they have enough information about in the first place. It would be a quieter world. There is also no solution to be found in state-run media either; even CSPAN is edited.

I don't believe that being a straight white male is remotely illegal in this country.

Homosexuality was criminalized in much of the country for many decades. Gays have been marginalized, punished, and denied equal rights as promised by our Constitution. And what recent changes in our laws mean is certainly a matter that needs to be discussed openly.

The race and gender cards are useless to play in your intended manner, but I do understand why so many believe this.

Once upon a time, an honest, working, white man could provide for his family on a single income. That's the life presented to all of us through decades of tv shows at least. I make no claim to be an expert on the reality of that. Women were presented as secretaries, nurses, lunch ladies, teachers, housekeepers, etc. A white man rarely had to compete with a qualified woman for the same job, much less anyone of color. Colored folks weren't welcome in certain neighborhoods, couldn't eat at the same places, and in no way were treated equally under the law. None of that can be true anymore, and there is certainly going to be some adjusting necessary.

I'm tired of hearing about so and so is the first black man to do something, or the first woman to do something, or the first bisexual, transgendered, Asian/Latino mixed race them to do something. It's 2017, why are there any more damn firsts left? Because so much has been off limits to these peoples for so long.

Every single one of those firsts have taken a job that a white man would have had, without question, in an earlier time; and that hurts, if not personally, then certainly financially. "They're" taking what's "ours" is how so many see it. And we have to work with, and often, FOR THEM, for our own financial survival. Our kids have to go to school with them. They're moving into our neighborhoods. Why can't they stay where they "belong"? Why does equal for them mean "less for us"? Why isn't one income enough anymore? How are we, as men, supposed to provide for our families anymore?

Yeah, I understand the angst is very real. The divide is very real.

And yes, there are bigots, but not everything that involves race or pride in a person's heritage is about racism. Not every issue touching upon gender is sexist. Not every conversation about LGBTQ+OMGBBQWTF's is hate speech. Not every discussion about religion freedoms and what we don't like about other religions, or people of other religions has to be discriminatory. Not every response to the latest shooting tragedy is about taking our guns.

More and more, it all boils down to "what about me and mine?". And until we can answer that, everything else is moot.