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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/8/2017 11:27:28 PM

Edwird

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
British slang, is almost always spot on!
Got to love phrases such as: barking mad, corker, mate and knackered.

Yeah, the Brits have a way of turning a phrase. Winston Churchill was a champion of the sport!

There's a story I love to tell:

Churchill was sent a "galley" (advanced, pre-publication edition) of a book by someone he didn't really appreciate. He sent back a note (that went along the lines of):

Thank you for the copy of your newest book. I assure you I shall waste no time reading it!

Churchill was indeed a champion of wit!

After a reporter 'corrected' him in a news article countering his ending a sentence with a preposition, C Hill referred to it as the "sort of nonsense up with which I shall not put."

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/8/2017 11:33:11 PM

Wayward5oul

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Was that the one without "evidence of tampering", and the non existent "court" it could be produced at?

Yep, that would be the one. Still waiting on him to show how what he said wasn't a lie.

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/8/2017 11:37:47 PM

Edwird

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Political reporters are just natural born dullwits.

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/9/2017 12:13:52 AM

DaddySatyr

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Had you two ladies read ALL of the article I linked, you'd have seen:

quote:

ORIGINAL: From The Link

Gloria Allred, later presented the note as evidence in court that Moore sought an inappropriate relationship with her in the 1970s.

So ... not MY contention, but the contention of the AUTHOR OF THE ARTICLE . I mean, for goodness sake. It wasn't a long article to begin with and that sentence was the last in the third paragraph.

I'm done, doing other peoples' research for them. The link was there to be read. You two didn't read it and then, climbed on your high horse. It's too bad that horse didn't take you to the high ground for which you'd hoped. You'd rather try to paint me as wrong than to actually read.

I apologize. Maybe I'm doing a bit of "mind reading" there so, I'll ask: Was it that you didn't want to read or were some of the words too big for you? Maybe get a grown up to help?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Was that the one without "evidence of tampering", and the non existent "court" it could be produced at?

Yep, that would be the one. Still waiting on him to show how what he said wasn't a lie.

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/9/2017 12:46:43 AM

Lucylastic

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Removed because I feel like a moron.

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 12/9/2017 12:52:26 AM >

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/9/2017 12:50:00 AM

Greta75

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FR

I think that all these major news media seriously are under sooo much pressure to get Trump that they are making stupid mistakes.

Kinda show that, they are just not being professional and slipping up.

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/9/2017 12:54:52 AM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
I also transposed "evidence" and "tampering"...in the post above(oopth)
But this is the post I took it from

It wasn't whether or not you mixed up "evidence" and "tampering". It was that you claimed the court was "non-existent"

The book was changed/tampered with by the young lady. Had it been just a girl, doing stuff to impress her friends, that would have been childish, but understandable.

The legal issue comes in when you realize she "tampered" with the book (no matter what the reason) and then understand that Allred presented that evidence to a court. Once introduced as "evidence", it becomes "tampered evidence".

Allred needs to hope the lady didn't tell her that she'd tampered with it or there's also an ethics violation that might slide into the legal world, also.

A lawyer is required to do due diligence to make sure the evidence is authentic before they present it.

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/9/2017 12:56:25 AM

Lucylastic

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All of them make mistakes, not one of them is reliable, thats why you have to cross check sources, left, right and extremes, also international sources if needed.

but of course, WE all make mistakes too.
some of us can recognize it,
some of us spin.

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/9/2017 12:59:01 AM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

All of them make mistakes, not one of them is reliable, thats why you have to cross check sources, left, right and extremes, also international sources if needed.

but of course, WE all make mistakes too.
some of us can recognize it,
some of us spin.

No "spin" involved. I made the contention that there was a possibility of evidence tampering.

You challenged that.

My contention rested upon the book, being presented as evidence to a court. I re-presented that sentence to you and, to your credit, you did admit to making a mistake. It just wasn't the mistake I was pointing out.

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/9/2017 1:03:00 AM

Lucylastic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
I also transposed "evidence" and "tampering"...in the post above(oopth)
But this is the post I took it from

It wasn't whether or not you mixed up "evidence" and "tampering". It was that you claimed the court was "non-existent"

The book was changed/tampered with by the young lady. Had it been just a girl, doing stuff to impress her friends, that would have been childish, but understandable.

The legal issue comes in when you realize she "tampered" with the book (no matter what the reason) and then understand that Allred presented that evidence to a court. Once introduced as "evidence", it becomes "tampered evidence".

Allred needs to hope the lady didn't tell her that she'd tampered with it or there's also an ethics violation that might slide into the legal world, also.

A lawyer is required to do due diligence to make sure the evidence is authentic before they present it.

eating crow, I was thinking criminal court, and not the civil court.
I fucked up and I unconditionally apologise.
no excuses.

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/9/2017 1:04:17 AM

DaddySatyr

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Thank you.

No sarcasm: That was very decent ... even big of you.

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/9/2017 1:05:14 AM

Lucylastic

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I was researching it as you posted your request for an apology... You have it.
I mean it.

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/9/2017 1:09:09 AM

MasterDrakk

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Perhaps someone can explain how writing notes in your own yearbook is tampering. I think its good its in quotes.

what several under investigation by the various and sundry trump administration have done is tampering, no quotes needed.

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/9/2017 1:09:48 AM

DaddySatyr

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And my comment to you was sincere, also.

I think, if we apply ourselves (and this is not to be taken to mean that I don't assume some blame), we can have civil discourse.

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/9/2017 1:14:04 AM

Lucylastic

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One handwriting expert has apparently said it IS moores handwriting, (not the added bits) But I dont know if it was an independent one or Allreds "expert"
I dont like allred at all as a person, so I have suspicions automatically with a case of hers, but I believe the woman.
its very credible, so much more than moores "i did not know that/these/this woman" "responses"

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/9/2017 1:21:27 AM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

One handwriting expert has apparently said it IS moores handwriting, (not the added bits) But I dont know if it was an independent one or Allreds "expert"
I dont like allred at all as a person, so I have suspicions automatically with a case of hers, but I believe the woman.
its very credible, so much more than moores "i did not know that/these/this woman" "responses"

I think ... I thought the lady might have been credible until this came out.

Either she told Allred she tampered with the signature and that puts Allred on the hot seat, but ultimately, she allowed Allred to "run with it".

If she didn't tell Allred she tampered with it, it damages her credibility even more (to me).

Either way, this development muddies the waters and that's never good, if we're looking for real justice.

This almost ensures there will be people - on both sides - who will look at any decision from any court with a jaundiced eye. Hence; no real resolution.

When I said that Moore had asked for the book to be examined by an expert, I was almost sure that he was implying that Allred's was disqualified by very nature of being her expert. I might be wrong there, but I think not. And Moore implying it doesn't make it true, but an independent expert (like one hired by the court) would be a bit more compelling.

Obviously, we agree about Allred, as well. I've never much cared for her tactics/public persona, but credit where credit is due: She's a heavyweight in the world of women's rights.

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/9/2017 1:21:34 AM

Lucylastic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

And my comment to you was sincere, also.

I think, if we apply ourselves (and this is not to be taken to mean that I don't assume some blame), we can have civil discourse.

You could be right. There is far too much division. Its not healthy.

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/9/2017 1:39:32 AM

Lucylastic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

One handwriting expert has apparently said it IS moores handwriting, (not the added bits) But I dont know if it was an independent one or Allreds "expert"
I dont like allred at all as a person, so I have suspicions automatically with a case of hers, but I believe the woman.
its very credible, so much more than moores "i did not know that/these/this woman" "responses"

I think ... I thought the lady might have been credible until this came out.

Either she told Allred she tampered with the signature and that puts Allred on the hot seat, but ultimately, she allowed Allred to "run with it".

If she didn't tell Allred she tampered with it, it damages her credibility even more (to me).

Either way, this development muddies the waters and that's never good, if we're looking for real justice.

This almost ensures there will be people - on both sides - who will look at any decision from any court with a jaundiced eye. Hence; no real resolution.

When I said that Moore had asked for the book to be examined by an expert, I was almost sure that he was implying that Allred's was disqualified by very nature of being her expert. I might be wrong there, but I think not. And Moore implying it doesn't make it true, but an independent expert (like one hired by the court) would be a bit more compelling.

Obviously, we agree about Allred, as well. I've never much cared for tactics/public persona, but credit where credit is due: She's a heavyweight in the world of women's rights.

The tactics is my problem its skeevy, even tho she is big as you say. Altho in my experience a lot of lawyers, men and women are....thats beside the point.
But there are probably thousands of womens rights activists I disagree with on several things about.

If you go with someone like allred, you do what she says, not what you say, unless you have the money to do it...and could easily have forgotton when it was done, and not even mentioned it, and slipped past unoticed until they aired it.
you can guarantee gloria was the first one to grill her about it, probably enraged.
why didnt you mention this, why did you do it, when did you do it, why didnt you tell me ....etc etc
my mind immediately goes to forensic testing of the ink to date it, because it was obvious to me that it wasnt ALL his writing.
The relevant parts being the date, the DA and the olde hickory house, but the message is clearly his, even to my dodgy eyesight.

From what I have read also, when moore asked for the book, she refused and said she would release it if Moore took an oath.
Personally I dont have an issue with that, and think it was the right move.
As you say, it muddies the waters, and a problem.
Which is really sad when you take into consideration the other women accusers and why trump supports him.
And also another reason why women dont come forward.
I bet when she got that yearbook signed she didnt think for one instance she would be forced to relive it 35 years later, to milllions of people.
just for telling her side.

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/9/2017 2:00:04 AM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

From what I have read also, when moore asked for the book, she refused and said she would release it if Moore took an oath.
Personally I dont have an issue with that, and think it was the right move.
As you say, it muddies the waters, and a problem.
Which is really sad when you take into consideration the other women accusers and why trump supports him.
And also another reason why women dont come forward.
I bet when she got that yearbook signed she didnt think for one instance she would be forced to relive it 35 years later, to milllions of people.
just for telling her side.

"took an oath" or "went under oath"? I hadn't heard about this. It's why I'm asking.

That said, if one side presents evidence in court, the other side is entitled to have that evidence examined by their own expert. So, if Moore asked for the book, after Allred submitted it, he was entitled to it (sure, he might have had to go through the discovery process). The hesitation also plants seeds of disbelief ie; if you have nothing to hide, let's see your evidence.

President Trump, supporting Roy Moore was, at the very least a political mistake. On top of that, the way he shaped his endorsement made it even worse (I'm paraphrasing): "We need a Republican; not a Democrat". That just dumps gasoline on the fire. Personally, I do believe "innocent until proven guilty" that's as close as I can come to any kind of endorsement.

While women not coming forward is an issue, this too, muddies waters. I hope we can agree that there are some "gold diggers" out there. I'm not saying this lady is, by the way; just that there are some. Our legal system requires the we separate the wheat from the chaff, and rightly so.

quote:

"I bet when she got that yearbook signed she didnt think for one instance she would be forced to relive it 35 years later, to milllions of people.
just for telling her side."

I'm sure you're right. All the more reason we need to find a way for women to tell their side, when the incident happens.

I've been through traumatic experiences. I wasn't able to talk about them, right away. I suffer from PTSD. I have compassion for that.

The issue is: the way things stand, right now, there is enormous potential for accusers to ruin other people with accusations that may be inaccurate; to the point of being out-right false. There has to be a way to prioritize things. I'm not sure if this works, but (in this specific instance) if Criminal charges can't be proven, I believe it should NOT impact a person's career or candidate status.

To the best of my knowledge, this lady has not said that Moore had sex with her; that he "only kissed" her. I find that disgusting and I would never vote for Moore, but I don't live in Abalama, ... yet. The Abalama voters should be the ones to decide and, if these accusations prove false (which won't happen until after the special election), Moore's reputation will have been tarnished beyond repair (as far as career and election go).

Make no mistake: his reputation is already tarnished, but this lady (I believe) was seventeen when this incident happened? In some countries, that's an "adult" (Well, it's at least "legal").

I'm allowed to make judgments on political candidates, but there's talk of Moore, being duly elected by the people of Abalama and the senate, refusing to seat him with still nothing actually decided, legally. There's that "innocent until proven guilty", again.

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RE: CNN Mad Howlers And Their Howling Madness - 12/9/2017 3:32:41 AM

Lucylastic

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This is the news report I read because it was video and not just info,
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/28/politics/gloria-allred-yearbook-roy-moore-cnntv/index.html

Allred: To get yearbook, Moore must testify 01:56
Washington (CNN)The attorney representing a woman who has accused Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore of sexual assault said Tuesday she'll hand over a key piece of evidence for third-party examination on the condition that the Senate holds a hearing over the accusations against Moore.

Moore's attorney, Phillip Jauregui, requested earlier this month that Gloria Allred's legal team turn over a late-1970s yearbook from Beverly Young Nelson to a neutral party for examination. The yearbook appears to show an inscription with Moore's signature which calls Nelson, who is now 56, "a beautiful girl," and is signed off with "Love, Roy Moore D.A." The Senate candidate's team has cast doubt on the signature's authenticity.
RELATED: Roy Moore's lawyer casts doubt on accuser's story, yearbook inscription
Allred told CNN's "New Day" Tuesday that her team "would be very happy to turn the yearbook over" to a neutral party if the Senate requests it and Moore testifies under oath. She has previously called on the Senate to hold a hearing on Moore and said earlier this month she would turn over the yearbook to an expert on that condition.
"We immediately said that if the United States Select Committee on Ethics and/or the United States Senate Judiciary Committee would hold a hearing, we would be very happy to turn the yearbook over to have it examined by an independent (party)," Allred told CNN's Alisyn Camerota.

there is more at the link

I have other links if you prefer...
This one definitely covers the handwriting info, but as I said, I would prefer to see independence in the exam.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/08/us/alabama-moore-nelson-allred.html

BTW I most certainly agree false accusations are a horrible consequence of this kind of revelations... in especially sex related matters, always have been and always will be.
its one of quite a few things we have agreed on on the subject as a whole.

I found the whole idea of project veritas sending a woman to the washington post to make a false accusation against moore....revolting, in my view, it was at the "false accusation" more than she was trying to hoodwink wapo that pissed me off.
its not a partisan thing, if she will do it, for a job, someone will do it for fame.

edited to add,
notice the date, that was when I first saw it.:)

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