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RE: Marriage in Gorean life - 9/9/2006 9:50:15 PM

xBullx

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Tal Goreans,
I in the past year have in my own mind came to terms with this very issue, I am married to my FC. Marriage is, as I do believe the reaper was stating, a bond of religious merit. It may or may not hold importance to you depending on your spirituality. Legally the attorneys of US society have managed to fuggle it's significance and made it to be something of monetary or material importance. But, has it ever been anything more than a man's claim over a woman. Again a woman is, what we as men allow her to be. I do believe this is the heart of Gorean idealism. But as Torvald (are you the one from Mt Torvald?) stated, you do take on risk in US society under the law if you have a little wench under your roof.

I wish you all Ice Cream
Bull

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RE: Marriage in Gorean life - 9/10/2006 5:07:33 AM

barelynangel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
Legally the attorneys of US society have managed to fuggle it's significance and made it to be something of monetary or material importance.

Greetings Master Bull,

Just as a thought here, i am not sure if you realize this but its people's greed and vindictive nature that keep the attorney's in business. People fuggle marraige long before attorney's are asked to get involved. People are responsible for marraige being bastardized for its people who are involved in marraige. People change the concept of what they are living, the attorney's simply represent what the people claim are their interests.

Well wishes,
angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 9/10/2006 5:27:07 AM >

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

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RE: Marriage in Gorean life - 9/10/2006 9:44:27 AM

KajiraResources

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Bull,
Finally someone who understands the difference between Legal Marriage, Religious Marriage, and Spiritual Bonding. I chose the name Torvald because it was my favorite story in all the series. In the essence of the story Tarl becomes a complete Gorean Man by discovering his spirit in the face of adversity. Granted that is just how I see it but I consider the "awakening" of part of the book to be the best example of a mans ability to have a spiritual presence without the adulteration of religion or law.

Jarl Torvald

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RE: Marriage in Gorean life - 9/11/2006 9:39:06 PM

KajiraResources

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After reading the collision or synergy thread it dawns on me that Norman, while equating Marriage to Free Companionship, he also treats it much the same as religion as an institution. He stated that "a man cannot love one who he is merely bound to by contract". Then in the passage where he states "IF" free companions would treat thier companionship as a contractual slavery they might find life more satisfying. He then adds that if a woman seeks true love she would better her chances by giving herself as a slave to her man.

In these passages he basically is is telling you that the institutionalization of marriage / companionship prevents the true love from happening.

What about the earth bound version of a love slave? It was not that uncommon in the books, what is our equal?

Jarl Torvald

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RE: Marriage in Gorean life - 9/12/2006 6:13:02 AM

fyreredsub

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Greetings,

when a girl gives of herself totally to a Master.
He then become first and foremost and a girl should make whatever changes necessary that He wishes of her to and she does whatever it takes to make Master pleased, to cause Him no grief, to be truly able to be kajira and not earth girl wants and behaviors.......because that takes away from the totality of slavery...

then that is true love,imo

this one also believes that many confuse the vanilla concept of love with enslavement and Mastery

wishing you well

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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RE: Marriage in Gorean life - 9/12/2006 7:30:01 AM

starshineowned

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Greetings Jarl

There can be any lovely vision or flowering or wording one would wish to apply to such dynamics between a Master and slave..however, in the end..if that slave is not happy? It's over. They may very well remain together..but her heart will not be there, and the service will be a false front. A big difference in those that choose to call themselves slaves is that what drives them to find and be happy are things that the majority (earth girl syndrome) do not. It is very rare to find such persons that get that happiness and their needs met by letting someone else take complete control. As odd as what a slave finds they need in order to achieve that happiness in their life is..If it is not met.. then there won't be any love, everyday will be a struggle, and the chances of her enduring and staying to the bitter end will be very unlikely.

Well Wishes

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

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RE: Marriage in Gorean life - 9/12/2006 8:04:24 AM

Jahnaca

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Greetings Torvold

I don’t think Norman was anti marriage/free companionship at all. In fact I know he was highly supportive of our marriage union and the love that is created within. What I think he was getting at is how we view the relationship.

These institutions do not create personal reality, you do. As Norman clearly presented in his book Imaginative Sex, and further highlighted in his Gorean series. The quote in question from Blood Brothers shows how one can have a different view then the status quo. This does exist here on Earth. When you take marriage out of the legal definition you will find many people view and practice the institution very differently then someone else. Thus creating your own personal reality within a mainstream institution. In the Gor series we also see this, many men freed their slaves to become companions, often shown in the books without the whole process of obtaining contracts etc. It just happens. Should Norman have been opposed to this institution, and feel honestly slavery was the only road, I highly doubt so many main characters would have tossed this ideal aside in favor of the other lesser institution (all these women were already in slavery the supposed superior institution). We won't even go into the snubbing the whole process commonly discussed on forums like this for a much more direct approch.

In the quote from Blood Brothers you notice a key word used, “some” indicating that some have taken a different approach to the “business partner” ideal that other Goreans view free companionships (see the line just above the quote in question). It means even though they were still bound by the same legalities of that institution they viewed it differently. Doesn’t mean it is the definition of the institution, or even how it’s supposed to be viewed but just highlighting different points of view (personal reality).

The quote also presented a theory regarding dominance and submission, which was culturally ingrained by the Goreans with the institution of slavery. Within that institution it allowed Goreans to participate at the highest levels the concept of dominance and submission within a socially accepted relationship. It though doesn’t begin there, nor stop there. My dog practices dominance and submission every moment of her life, it is ingrained in her at the highest level. It is part of her social structure and all other canines. It is not master and slave, it simply is, dominance and submission in it’s most natural form.

Norman used the slavery institution to highlight the possibility, we are left with recreating the ideals into our reality. Blood Brothers showed us how to incorporate the ideals of slavery within the other socially accepted institution called free companionships and still maintain the legality. (Creating their own reality). It leaves us with questions; if a dog can practice dominance and submission without the institution and understanding of slavery, can we? Can we look past the status quo definitions and create our own reality based on a fuller understanding of men and women and these very biological truths? Or are we so enslaved by what others define these institutions, we can not see past it and must become, just like them?

IWYW

Jahna

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RE: Marriage in Gorean life - 9/16/2006 9:51:16 PM

KajiraResources

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Jahnaca,

I understand the relationship dynamics as the books display them. Commonly Norman refered to the institution of free companionship as a mere contractual relationship more like a business relationship. In the earlier books he only gave representations of how companionships were bad and created an artificial equality or the damaging effect of giving a woman status.

It is my personal belief that in his later books he contradicted the earlier books merely out of preasure from a society hell bent on imposing a feminist stance. The man still needed to sell books so adapting to the audience is a viable reason to bend your views a little. Naturalistic impulse says we will do what we must to survive.

Jarl Torvald

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RE: Marriage in Gorean life - 9/17/2006 5:09:31 AM

kisshou

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KajiraResources

Naturalistic impulse says we will do what we must to survive.

greetings Jarl Torvald,

how do you reconcile this with honor? It has always been my belief that Gorean men do not give in to such impulses if by doing so it would not be honorable. You are saying that JN gave in to peer pressure and while that might or might not be true that is not something a Gorean man would do.

well wishes
kisshou

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RE: Marriage in Gorean life - 9/18/2006 3:32:55 PM

KajiraResources

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kisshou,

Norman may or may not have done it I agree but how else would you explain the conflicts that occour between the later books and the earlier ones. Lets take one example from explorers, there is a statement about the man with 200 or more Free Companions, this is a direct conflict with the earlier statement that a man may never have more than one free companion from book 2.

There are those who will say he refined the philosophy in the later books but a contradiction is still a contradiction, what changed his mind?

Jarl

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RE: Marriage in Gorean life - 9/19/2006 4:02:28 AM

kisshou

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Greetings Jarl Torvald,

I don't wonder about JN because even though he wrote the books he does not proclaim that he is a Gorean Free man.

You are a Gorean Free man so I was wondering how you reconcile honor with naturalist impulse (what I quoted of you).

I kept thinking that if a big warrior guy wanted my slave wouldn't naturalistic impulse tell me to run away , avoid the conflict, live for another day? In the books though they always fought so that goes against that.

I have never read the books looking for philosophocal teachings though with the encouragement of the Free men here on this CM forum I am starting too. Up til now I have spent my time trying to be pleasing and learning things that would be found more pleasing and no Free people have ever wanted to discuss philosophy with me. So for me this has been really cool. There are certain things I am forbidden from asking about. Though I am getting off topic here :)

Thank you very much for your time in replying to my post. I wish I could answer your question but I have no idea what the answer is.

well wishes
kisshou

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RE: Marriage in Gorean life - 9/19/2006 5:06:06 PM

KajiraResources

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kisshou,

In the earlier books Tarl himself accepted abject slavery as a means of survival. In fact many men did this. Men fled citys to keep from being killed or they changed thier names like Marlenus did when he was fighting in the sand pits. These chest thumpers and anti humanists fail to see how human the characters were. They look for the loopholes instead of the meat of the philosophy. I will also tell you Tarl killed a lot more men with arrows from a safe distance than he ever did with a sword.

Jarl Torvald

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