MstrVinTX
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Joined: 3/13/2006
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This thread is sprung from a different one. This is the last post on the subject:
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Tal Vin,
Thank you for bringing that to my intention. I did, in fact, misread what you had written. I cannot comment on that book, having not read it.
As for the God and Christianity thing. I do not believe that they belong in any discussion of Gor. Norman repeatedly blasted organized religion in many places in the books, and he patterend the Initiates after worldly organization of faith, making them purposefully laughable, in an attempt to show the fallacies of deity based belief systems (Gorean Philosophy is a reactionary naturalism based on Evolution and Natural Selection afterall, and stated as much in at least a half a dozen different places directly in the texts of the books). He also stated in the books, and I paraphrase, that it is not for a warrior to attempt to even understand the concept of God, for if God exists, and we are living within our natural order, then we are living according to God's plan, and if God does not exist, then we are still living within our nature. At which point, God's existence is immaterial to the equation, and arguing things based upon "God" or "deity based moral standards" is a technical foul from a logical standpoint within the Gorean Philosophy.
Norman did in fact, through several of his arguments, point to Christianity, especially in the form of Catholocism, as one of the things that had taken man, and driven him far from his nature. The influence of Christianity, and especially the influence of the Catholic Church on western thought and civilization, are clearly un-natural. One reason why Norman chose to limit his use of Rome in his formulation of Ar to the period in Rome's history well before the influence of Christianity on the Roman Empire. All you have to do is look to the books to see where Norman really does stand on that issue.
I was responding only to that quote that you provided. I have not read the book, so I do not know how far out of context you may have gone with the quote. At the point you tell me that it is from a Christian viewpoint, I would really have to read the context of the quote to comment further. The quote, though, does seem to point in a direction that would be beneficial to the external society, assuming the context does not wax into dogmatic lines like so many "Christian" contexts do.
I was not meaning to be malicious. That was certainly not my intent. However, I have run into enough people in my years in the Gorean Ethos who were "Christians" to have a bad taste in my mouth generally. I appologize if that was directed at you. You are right, that I do not know you, or how you approach it, so generalizing you into that group is perhaps unfair.
Be well,
_____________________________
Omega
Master of Red Dragon Freehold
Chairman of the High Council
Colorado Gorean Society
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Greetings Omega,
You have your opinions, but what many fail to do is realize the heart of Christianity, especially how I practice it. It's not about organized religion, but a relationship with the Creator (God) and others around myself. That is the first thing you must understand about my approach.
I could not agree more with your previous statement. "I could go on, and list hundreds of examples of how humanity has failed in its history." You could not be more correct. Humanity has failed, not God, His plan, or the fact that there are men and women who believe in both.
So, to your charge of: "Norman did in fact, through several of his arguments, point to Christianity, especially in the form of Catholocism, as one of the things that had taken man, and driven him far from his nature. The influence of Christianity, and especially the influence of the Catholic Church on western thought and civilization, are clearly un-natural." Which part of the Church's (not singling out a particular 'denomination') influence... what ideals specifically are consider "unnatural" according to you?
"Norman repeatedly blasted organized religion in many places in the books, and he patterend the Initiates after worldly organization of faith, making them purposefully laughable, in an attempt to show the fallacies of deity based belief systems." We agree perfectly until the very last section of the statement. I think it shows the ability for every man to be flawed, and religious leaders are not immune from imperfection. I will agree that in our history, there has been some sickening corruption within "the Church," just as there has been corruption in the secular community. Let us also realize that there is a difference between the design of a plan, and the execution of a plan.
I think that through this discussion, you will be surprised to learn at how much we may agree with each other about 'organized religion' and 'the church.'
I look forward to reading your thoughts.
Respectfully,
Vin
_____________________________
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat, and blood, who strives valiantly... who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who have never known neither victory nor defeat."
-Teddy Roosevelt
< Message edited by MstrVinTX -- 8/15/2006 9:37:22 PM >
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